Some thoughts on homosexuality

[theoneandonlypencil]

To clarify: still sinful to you?

No, I have different views on what actually constitutes 'sexual immorality' and what is part of the basic sexual attraction God gave us so that we might be attracted enough to marry someone.

Since male friendships and female friendships tend to have different undertones, I recommend not speaking at length about male friendships. Many women don't get them. I try not to speak at length about female friendships for the same reason, I don't get them.

I'm not speaking at length; Really what I'm saying can be applied to either gender. I think the fact that 70% of americans identify as 'lonely' would show that we're definitely not bonding enough outside of our romantic lives.

When you have multiple gay people living together and they know they're gay, that multiplies temptation. I would not recommend that to a gay Christian.
Roommates as far as I'm concerned are just roommates. Sometimes roommates are also friends. More than that is inappropriate in every circumstance I can think of right now. Roommates is a hard thing to get right, in my experience. People who live together grate at each other.

LOL I didn' t mean multiple gay people. I meant perhaps a gay person living among holy, straight men in a very God-centered environment that acts almost like a church community. Roommates is basically what I consider to be cohabitation if it's with the same sex.

 

[theoneandonlypencil]

Your nuancing or should I say complicating, has enhanced the situation but God does not have a category of straight, to Him there is a quality of straight.

That's essentially what I'm trying to get at. While it's not hard to figure out if you're attracted to the same sex, to what degree and whether or not the feelings are your own or something from an outside influence can create a number of variables.

I was in my late twenties when a church worker told a bunch of us single people my age were "gay" and I wasn't going to let that go in front of kids half my age becaused I didn't believe in package dealing and I don't now. Furthermore at one time there was an etiquette that one called oneself that if one wanted, no-one else did.

Agreed. I don't think there should be a stereotype for 'gay' or 'straight'--you're either attracted to the same sex or not, and then you can go from there.

If you conform imperceptibly to the worldly patterns - complex as you admit they are - will readers get enough contrast towards the points you want to bring out?

That what's I'm here having these discussions. I'm awful at communicating my points, so I'm hoping to have people point out the 'weak spots' in my argument and help me form a better overall understanding.

Incidentally it's vital a single guy have MORE THAN one close friend. Frienships should be shared in the church. Because of connotations of major infighting, people dumped me on Celia & Margaret who dumped me on James who is good but needs his space and I let him choose his timing. My new round of acquaintances are thankfully a total contrast. The Holy Trinity embodies making room for the Other Other.

I would agree. I use an example of 'one' friend since it would appear some people feel insecure if they're more attached to one person than everyone else--I'm trying to say it's OK and I don't find it abnormal. Although I agree, a small circle of close friends as opposed to one would also be very beneficial, but you can't force people to 'click'.

 

[coffee4u]

No, I don't. I find the female 'anatomy' quite gross and I have never desired a romantic relationship with one

Your profile doesn't list your gender, so...
Are you a man who dislikes women or a women who dislikes women. Might want to clear that point up.

 

[Amittai]

Just to add my two cents here; ...

Your thread - we need more than 2 cents please - how does this fit into excessive sexualization of opposite sexes always implying people with less influence than themselves on the part of the propagandists which is outrageously colossal presumption as well as twisted. The propagandists who claim to be "empowering" you ("romantically") have stolen your mind. Both I and Quartermaine have called you to cover the opposite-sexes angle at least at the level of contextualising.

Molinist-Preterists have got to stop being "conformed to this world"! I lapsed from my non-package dealing for the middle part of my life. I know how dangerous it is to fall under interlopers - don't mislead others more vulnerable than yourself.

As for "ordinary" men kissing on the mouth, that is totally puce.

You are very taken with sexualisation as long as it is the curiously termed "straight"?

 

[theoneandonlypencil]

Your profile doesn't list your gender, so...
Are you a man who dislikes women or a women who dislikes women. Might want to clear that point up.

//shrugs

It says I'm a female on my profile, and I don't have any options as far as I'm aware that hide my gender.

 

[Sketcher]

No, I have different views on what actually constitutes 'sexual immorality' and what is part of the basic sexual attraction God gave us so that we might be attracted enough to marry someone.

I consider that low on the scale of eros. I cannot endorse any eros between two of the same sex.

I'm not speaking at length; Really what I'm saying can be applied to either gender. I think the fact that 70% of americans identify as 'lonely' would show that we're definitely not bonding enough outside of our romantic lives.

With men, it's different than what you were describing. It's something that we know when we see, but find hard to put into words. Words don't really do it justice.

LOL I didn' t mean multiple gay people. I meant perhaps a gay person living among holy, straight men in a very God-centered environment that acts almost like a church community. Roommates is basically what I consider to be cohabitation if it's with the same sex.

I see. I'd be OK with that.

 

[theoneandonlypencil]

Your thread - we need more than 2 cents please - how does this fit into excessive sexualization of opposite sexes always implying people with less influence than themselves on the part of the propagandists which is outrageously colossal presumption as well as twisted. The propagandists who claim to be "empowering" you ("romantically") have stolen your mind. Both I and Quartermaine have called you to cover the opposite-sexes angle at least at the level of contextualising.

Molinist-Preterists have got to stop being "conformed to this world"! I lapsed from my non-package dealing for the middle part of my life. I know how dangerous it is to fall under interlopers - don't mislead others more vulnerable than yourself.

As for "ordinary" men kissing on the mouth, that is totally puce.

You are very taken with sexualisation as long as it is the curiously termed "straight"?

I'm actually very confused with your point, here. I don't follow any empowering 'romantic' views? Of course if two men are being romantic, that would be classed as sinful according to the bible. If it's a straight pairing...no? I mean, generally speaking it's not unheard of for two people of the opposite sex to have a close friendship(I did cover this somewhere, I thought). However, I do consider it to be a slightly riskier move since us as a species is, by default, attracted to the opposite sex; this is especially true for men who are more visually stimulated than women.

Is it impossible to have a godly, opposite-sex platonic close relationship? No. But, it's also very, very uncommon due to a number of things. I recommend same-sex friendships so highly because we are on average not romantically attracted to the same sex(the margin of gay people in the US is only about 2%, give or take)and at that point you can cultivate a loving friendship with no fear of repercussions.

Sure, media oversexes heterosexual and homosexual relationships alike; I never said I wouldn't like to see more opposite-sex friendships portrayed in media. However, I'm going to call romantic/sexual interactions what it is when I see it, since it's not that much of a gray are. A light touch or hug? Not necessarily romantic....lovingly caressing someone's cheek and then leaning in for a mouth-to-mouth kiss? Definitely romantic, and it would be nearly impossible to write that as being platonic.


I also don't know why you're so concerned with my position as a molinist-partial preterist. It has nothing to do with worldly views; preterism has to do with the interpretation of Revelation and whether or not it already happened, and molinism having to do with the nature of God and our free will. It's so people can easily identify what doctrines I follow, neither of which have anything to do with being more or less 'worldly'.

 

[Amittai]

...

I was in my late twenties when a church worker told a bunch of us single people my age were "gay" and I wasn't going to let that go in front of kids half my age becaused I didn't believe in package dealing and I don't now. ...

I knew very well for myself that I was emotionally immature, but I was outraged at an authority figure claiming to paint anyone into a corner and saw the need to demonstrate to younger ones who were there, that we must not stand for poison in this poisonous world. (His boss got the sack for theft.) One should try and wear "sexuality" or emotional matters lightly. Good upbringing helps imperfect people cut a better dash. It's like wearing clothes.

 

[theoneandonlypencil]

I consider that low on the scale of eros. I cannot endorse any eros between two of the same sex.

Well yeah, you asked if it was sinful for me or not--but perhaps I misunderstood. I thought you were asking whether or not I considered that kind of attraction to the opposite sex(since I am heterosexual)was sinful, to which I answered no. Otherwise, I agree with your point.

With men, it's different than what you were describing. It's something that we know when we see, but find hard to put into words. Words don't really do it justice.

To be fair, there's no 'one size fits all' for men or women. That's why a lot end up alienated, and why you get 'guys who prefer to be around girls' and 'girls who prefer to be around guys', etc. Let us not forget what's considered 'normative male friendships' is largely decided by society; I've been on the receiving end many times of men complaining about the dynamic becoming very emotionally restrictive and almost toxic at times with how they're expected to act.

I see. I'd be OK with that.

Yes. A place where one could learn to overcome any 'attraction' towards the same sex, and learn to get along with other men in a loving, God-fearing environment.

 

[Amittai]

...

Is it impossible to have a godly, opposite-sex platonic close relationship? No. But, it's also very, very uncommon due to a number of things. I recommend same-sex friendships so highly because we are on average not romantically attracted to the same sex(the margin of gay people in the US is only about 2%, give or take)and at that point you can cultivate a loving friendship with no fear of repercussions.

Sure, media oversexes heterosexual and homosexual relationships alike; I never said I wouldn't like to see more opposite-sex friendships portrayed in media. However, I'm going to call romantic/sexual interactions what it is when I see it, since it's not that much of a gray are. A light touch or hug? Not necessarily romantic....lovingly caressing someone's cheek and then leaning in for a mouth-to-mouth kiss? Definitely romantic, and it would be nearly impossible to write that as being platonic.

I also don't know why you're so concerned with my position as a molinist-partial preterist. It has nothing to do with worldly views; preterism has to do with the interpretation of Revelation and whether or not it already happened, and molinism having to do with the nature of God and our free will. It's so people can easily identify what doctrines I follow, neither of which have anything to do with being more or less 'worldly'.

- Are you a script writer?
- You are employed to produce the romantic genre?
- You are media, but your hands are tied
- I think you must not keep trying to deal with everything at once, but more systematically
- I'm not sure you see the need for contextualising well enough yet
- In the proper Christian life one doesn't have a plain friendship with the opposite sex in a vacuum, it crops up unexpectedly, and each of them will have lots of other friends, a number of them overlapping.
- I used to go around (for about a year) with a certain lady who shared a number of other friends with me, our minds sparked. We didn't set out to create any atmosphere, we just did things because of the things we were doing. It was her overall idea but she was interested in my ideas about what we were interested in. I know she was at ease talking to others about what we were up to
- Friendship isn't emotional in basis, the emotions have a less load-bearing role
- are not predestination and middle knowledge the same thing, since the mind of God is in all times?
- even if part of the book of Revelation was fulfilled, can it not be fulfilled again?

Thus not only do we need our own initiative but we need the help God has been giving us as well.

 

[Sketcher]

Well yeah, you asked if it was sinful for me or not--but perhaps I misunderstood. I thought you were asking whether or not I considered that kind of attraction to the opposite sex(since I am heterosexual)was sinful, to which I answered no. Otherwise, I agree with your point.

OK. I thought you were only talking about homosexuals. Thanks for clearing that up.

To be fair, there's no 'one size fits all' for men or women. That's why a lot end up alienated, and why you get 'guys who prefer to be around girls' and 'girls who prefer to be around guys', etc. Let us not forget what's considered 'normative male friendships' is largely decided by society; I've been on the receiving end many times of men complaining about the dynamic becoming very emotionally restrictive and almost toxic at times with how they're expected to act.

I get what you're saying, but what I'm getting at is bigger than that. Again, we know it when we see it. And when it's really there, it will be recognized. This goes beyond the separations you speak of. You're saying there's no one size fits all, but I liken it more to bodies. There may be variations, but there's still the basic skeletal and muscular structure once you get past the skin layer which is very similar across people and even across various species.

Yes. A place where one could learn to overcome any 'attraction' towards the same sex, and learn to get along with other men in a loving, God-fearing environment.

Well, I don't expect a gay Christian to overcome an attraction towards the same sex in an environment like that. I do expect him to benefit from it if it's a good fit for him.

 

[Amittai]

... a small circle of close friends as opposed to one would also be very beneficial, but you can't force people to 'click'.

The bigger the better, of close-ish ones, in this day and age. Whom the closest few to you also know well. I mean, lots of serious values in common long term.

I'm not forcing anyone, no-one would. As a script writer you force your characters! If I'm dumped on a bunch of people that are stand offish - which a huge number of people on CF suffer - we have to wait till something better happens, which it will if we pray, but maybe not for a long time. Will there be prayers in your book? How realistic will those be?

Real life is not diverting, it is riveting in its non "happening" and its unremitting plainness. You can illustrate growth by having a character reminisce how they were in the past. That is going to bore your readers. When I have read testimonies they have a whole other tone from yours.

 

[createdtoworship]

Yeah, exactly. I think some people could get lonely being a eunuch though, which is why I suggested having a best friend you're particularly close to perhaps would be a good choice as you could still have that closeness without worrying about it being romantic. As I said in my first post, due to our sex-obsessed culture I think a lot of people mistakenly confuse love of a philia/agape nature for something romantic/sexual due to the shallow depiction society paints of platonic and romantic relationships.

well why would you want a friend of the opposite sex if you are not attracted to them? I would just have same sex friends if you are a eunich. For two reasons....No temptation if you are having a bad day and no confusion as to your intentions. See if you are best friends with a girl, she may develop feelings, unless you tell her straight out that you are not interested in girls, and only wish to befriend them. Which like I said is sort of odd, it may be confuse the girl too. For instance if you say you don't like girls but she looks pretty one day and you start staring, well that will give a mixed signal.

 

[Amittai]

... Let us not forget what's considered 'normative male friendships' is largely decided by society; I've been on the receiving end many times of men complaining about the dynamic becoming very emotionally restrictive and almost toxic at times with how they're expected to act. ...

I have been there, it's a frightful bore while it lasts. It's usually because it's intellectually restrictive that they fall back on emotionally blackmailing each other. It's shame based.

 

[Amittai]

...

I get what you're saying, but what I'm getting at is bigger than that. Again, we know it when we see it. And when it's really there, it will be recognized. This goes beyond the separations you speak of. You're saying there's no one size fits all, but I liken it more to bodies. There may be variations, but there's still the basic skeletal and muscular structure once you get past the skin layer which is very similar across people and even across various species.

Well, I don't expect a gay Christian to overcome an attraction towards the same sex in an environment like that. I do expect him to benefit from it if it's a good fit for him.

Yes. Make him just be a person instead of a person with an issue.

 

[Amittai]

well why would you want a friend of the opposite sex if you are not attracted to them? I would just have same sex friends if you are a eunich. For two reasons....No temptation if you are having a bad day and no confusion as to your intentions. See if you are best friends with a girl, she may develop feelings, unless you tell her straight out that you are not interested in girls, and only wish to befriend them. Which like I said is sort of odd, it may be confuse the girl too. For instance if you say you don't like girls but she looks pretty one day and you start staring, well that will give a mixed signal.

All young singles, unsure of themselves - obviously. The lady I referred to was a divorcee, she was available but not expectant which I wouldn't have wanted her to be anyway. I wasn't her anchor and she wasn't my main one, she was valuable but I gave her her space.

 

[Amittai]

Yes. Make him just be a person instead of a person with an issue.

In accordance with Godel's theorem you can't solve a problem in the "gay-antigay-ungay" system from within that system. Real life is like the carousel horses jumping off the carousel and cantering into the forest. Much more soporific.

It took a friend of mine decades of addressing job, health and hobbies then he found he had developed emotionally and wears attractions (which are momentary crushes that he light heartedly allows to fizzle out) lightly. He doesn't make a fuss about his orientations one way or another, I don't think he cares whether he has broken any of his supposed caste rules or not.

He doesn't get in anybody's way, but is more wholesomely assertive.

 

[Jamdoc]

I see homosexuality as in the attraction to the same gender to be a mental illness not necessarily a conscious sin against God.. but acting on it when you know that the act is sin is the really bad willing sin part. The attraction itself is sin in the same way that being depressed is sin (being plaintive or discontent is itself sin but sometimes that's just the way the brain is wired and a person is sick)

so what about a person who is homosexual, but celibate, knows they are sick, prays for healing, but sometimes that's just not God's will for them?

 

[Amittai]

I see homosexuality as in the attraction to the same gender to be a mental illness 1 not necessarily 2 a conscious sin against God but acting on it when you know that the act is sin is the really bad willing sin part. The attraction itself is sin in the same way that being depressed is sin 3 (being plaintive or discontent is itself sin but sometimes that's just the way the brain is wired and a person is sick)

so what about a person who is 4 homosexual, but celibate 5, knows they are sick 1, prays for healing 1, but sometimes that's just not God's will 6 for them?

6. They need to be a person not a person with an issue (in status). People in churches don't keep company much, they look down on each other's hobbies, despise each other's disabilities. There are exceptions. People who are busy getting a life don't worry about their orientations, but they might grow in self management once in a while.
5. If you mean chaste that is abstaining from the act and the obsession, nothing more. Celibate means unmarried as a policy. I'm casually unmarried, by contrast.
4. This kind of identity is meaningless in the Christian life unless it is a label adopted amongst outsiders to flag up a new model which is a totally personal gambit and not doctrinal
3. The beating yourself and others up which you have copied from your church is not objective truth
2. Attraction is attraction. It might only be momentary before one decides it is irrelevant. It might be neurotic and it might be sexualised.
1. What's sick is sick and not anything else. See no. 2

Hence there isn't any "what about". It's interesting that the argument comes out on its head, sequentially.

 

[HatedByAll]

Homosexuality is a hard subject to discuss. Almost everyone who participates has an objective other than what is often directly expressed. Because of that, I will only respond in this post to the subject matter of close same sexual friendships and how it relates to homosexual desire. I will mainly do this by sharing some of my testimony that relates to this subject matter.

First let me start by saying about thirty years ago I realized I needed to be right with God and repented of my homosexuality and made Jesus Christ my Lord and Savior. I can truly say that I became a Christian because I wanted Jesus fully in my life and not because I somehow decided I now wanted to be straight. But that is for another topic. I will try to hold my thoughts in this topic to the close friendships versus homosexuality.

I was an average kid and in many ways probably above average. I played sports as a young kid with the others in the neighborhood but was not obsessed with them as many boys and men are. I was good at football and basketball playing in the "sandlot" Just saying all that to say I was not one of the kids everyone considered effeminate. As far as masculinity was concerned I would consider myself then as now as simply average.

What I remember as a boy was not feeling like I measured up. In grade school I remember being ashamed because my parents bought me boxers and all the other boys wore "tighty whiteys." I feared they would realize that I was not just like everyone else. To me, because no other boys wore boxers, I had something to hide. It made me feel like I was not as much of a boy as the others in the neighborhood. The other thing I remember was I tried out for Little League. I was not chosen when most of the other boys in the neighborhood were. I did not try to do better for the next year or anything, I just did not care. The big reason I did not care is because my Dad did not seem to even notice.

I am not trying to get sympathy. That was years ago. I am just trying to let you know a little of my childhood to help explain the point I will be making. Now, as a child my Dad paid little attention to me. He was a workaholic and had little time to spend with me. I wanted his acceptance, and can say I never received it. Then between grade school and what used to be called junior high, we moved so I started all over trying to make friends.

It was hard for me to make friends, particularly with guys who were popular. Most of the friends I made were those who were "different." Not effeminate, just those who everyone considered a little strange. In junior high and high school I tried to make friends, but was rejected over and over. Because of that, I became desperate to be friends with certain other boys. Those that were masculine but had a personality that was approachable. But for some reason, even though I was willing to do anything to be a friend, they all rejected my offers of friendship.

To be continued. . .