Some of you might know that on here, I been speaking out at the concept of sinless perfection...

[Neogaia777]

Some of you might know that on here, I been speaking out at the concept of sinless perfectionism... To try to get people to tell the truth and not lie, saying that they are sinless now and do not sin any longer at all... I want them to know and say and confess they are sinners and continue on from there with that truth in mind...

Why would I want them and everyone to admit and know that they are sinners...? Cause I believe this is necessary to right "theology" I guess you could say, or wrong beliefs, and will spread that to others, and to have the right belief system, you have to know and be conscious of and aware that your a sinner...

Why, wouldn't that make many people want to just "give up" on trying not to sin, it may perhaps, but I have a higher duty to the truth above all else... You do need to give up, and give in (to Love, to God), and give up on your own self efforts, and just "let go and let God" do a work in you, instead of you, get out of the way, step aside...

Would you rather you by your own efforts, you try to be all you can be, or have God "make" by molding and shaping you, in his hands, anyways, or have God make you all you can be... you be all you can be....? And who do you think is better at this than the other...? Who is better to trust in...? Get in the flow of God, by letting go and giving into Love, thereby letting God....

Anyways, back to point, I don't think you can get the things of God right without knowing that your a sinner, this does not need be a reason to give up and give in to sin, but give up and give into God...

Comments...

God Bless!

 

[Big Drew]

I've noticed some posters on here talk about being sinless...there was one when I first came back to the forum in February talking about how they had not sinned in 4 weeks...it seems that there must be some doctrine going around changing the definition of sin, I don't know...but if we use the definition that I was taught (missing the mark) then we all miss the mark each day. Some of us may do it less than others, but we all sin...regardless of whether or not it is intentional.

That being said, I have been studying a lot lately on the doctrine of Original Sin/Total Depravity, and seeing a lot of faults in it...but I'm not sure if this is the direction you're wanting your thread to go in...so I'll leave it at that.

 

[Adstar]

Some of you might know that on here, I been speaking out at the concept of sinless perfectionism... To try to get people to tell the truth and not lie, saying that they are sinless now and do not sin any longer at all... I want them to know and say and confess they are sinners and continue on from there with that truth in mind...

Why would I want them and everyone to admit and know that they are sinners...? Cause I believe this is necessary to right "theology" I guess you could say, or wrong beliefs, and will spread that to others, and to have the right belief system, you have to know and be conscious of and aware that your a sinner...

Why, wouldn't that make many people want to just "give up" on trying not to sin, it may perhaps, but I have a higher duty to the truth above all else... You do need to give up, and give in (to Love, to God), and give up on your own self efforts, and just "let go and let God" do a work in you, instead of you, get out of the way, step aside...

Would you rather you by your own efforts, you try to be all you can be, or have God "make" by molding and shaping you, in his hands, anyways, or have God make you all you can be... you be all you can be....? And who do you think is better at this than the other...? Who is better to trust in...? Get in the flow of God, by letting go and giving into Love, thereby letting God....

Anyways, back to point, I don't think you can get the things of God right without knowing that your a sinner, this does not need be a reason to give up and give in to sin, but give up and give into God...

Comments...

God Bless!

I often have very frustrating discussions with those who preach sinlessness in the flesh perfection... Of course they are not sinless.. They are either lying to themselves and everyone else or they are delusional.. Either way their works salvation doctrine and believe in being sinless is a false doctrine that lead many people who fall for it into depressions and loss of all hope,

We are going to sin every day of our lives from this day to the last day of ourt lives it is best to aknowledge that and thank God daily for the Atonement He secured for our forgivness through the LORD Jesus Christ..

 

[Neogaia777]

I often have very frustrating discussions with those who preach sinlessness in the flesh perfection... Of course they are not sinless.. They are either lying to themselves and everyone else or they are delusional.. Either way their works salvation doctrine and believe in being sinless is a false doctrine that lead many people who fall for it into depressions and loss of all hope,

We are going to sin every day of our lives from this day to the last day of ourt lives it is best to aknowledge that and thank God daily for the Atonement He secured for our forgivness through the LORD Jesus Christ..

Is there a difference between being sinless in the flesh or sinless in the Spirit, or are the two inseperable...?

Peace,

God Bless!

 

[Don Maurer]

1 John 1:8-10 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

 

[Aseyesee]

Some of you might know that on here, I been speaking out at the concept of sinless perfectionism... To try to get people to tell the truth and not lie, saying that they are sinless now and do not sin any longer at all... I want them to know and say and confess they are sinners and continue on from there with that truth in mind...

Why would I want them and everyone to admit and know that they are sinners...? Cause I believe this is necessary to right "theology" I guess you could say, or wrong beliefs, and will spread that to others, and to have the right belief system, you have to know and be conscious of and aware that your a sinner...

Why, wouldn't that make many people want to just "give up" on trying not to sin, it may perhaps, but I have a higher duty to the truth above all else... You do need to give up, and give in (to Love, to God), and give up on your own self efforts, and just "let go and let God" do a work in you, instead of you, get out of the way, step aside...

Would you rather you by your own efforts, you try to be all you can be, or have God "make" by molding and shaping you, in his hands, anyways, or have God make you all you can be... you be all you can be....? And who do you think is better at this than the other...? Who is better to trust in...? Get in the flow of God, by letting go and giving into Love, thereby letting God....

Anyways, back to point, I don't think you can get the things of God right without knowing that your a sinner, this does not need be a reason to give up and give in to sin, but give up and give into God...

Comments...

God Bless!

To me this is to be double minded.

Though to claim you are without sin, is like claiming you see. Those who say they will not drink have drank already.

 

[Aseyesee]

Is there a difference between being sinless in the flesh or sinless in the Spirit, or are the two inseperable...?

Peace,

God Bless!

Paul seemed to think so, as to their separation.

 

[Neogaia777]

Paul seemed to think so, as to their separation.

What are sins of the flesh vs. sins of the spirit...?

 

[Aseyesee]

What are sins of the flesh vs. sins of the spirit...?

The spiritual math does not add up if those who are born of God, i.e. spirit can sin, it would mean, according to this verse that his seed, or christ does not remain in them (I will never leave you or forsake you comes to mind), and according to what Paul spoke about to the Galatians, about them being that seed, just a case of wishful thinking.

We would have to believe we are not in him, or in his kingdom, or seated in heavenly places, or have to believe that sin is in him, in his kingdom, and in heavenly places, covered or no. Or possibly reduce any such proclamations down to hypotheticals, which brings into question whether God is hypothetical, or like the serpent said, he really didn’t mean what you think he said.

Of course John the Baptist believed the Lamb of God took away the sin of the world, another case of wishful thinking maybe? just as the heavenly host could proclaim peace on earth, when the exact opposite for most on the planet was true.

Our soul of course is the battle ground for this to play out in by thought, and where for each individual the rubber meets road. But just because it has not met the road does it make it not true? After all whatsoever is not of faith is sin, at least that is what Paul seemed to believe, which to me settles the issue. It's what love does.

 

[Angel Wings 1288]

As Christians, we are required to live a sinless life to the best of our ability. Martin Luther, a Christian reformer and theologian, was wrong when he taught people to "sin boldly." We must be absolutely pure and walk the straight and narrow path, as if were were monks. If we sin, demons will be allowed to attach onto us, and they will cause immense grief and suffering; it is therefore of the utmost importance that no sin be committed.

 

[Aseyesee]

As Christians, we are required to live a sinless life to the best of our ability. Martin Luther, a Christian reformer and theologian, was wrong when he taught people to "sin boldly." We must be absolutely pure and walk the straight and narrow path, as if were were monks. If we sin, demons will be allowed to attach onto us, and they will cause immense grief and suffering; it is therefore of the utmost importance that no sin be committed.

Paul's an interesting case example, who was obviously a very prideful person. Even having a falling out with Barnabas over Mark, which he later had had a change of heart over, having sent for him by name.

 

[Rescued One]

What does God say?

1 John 1
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

 

[Aseyesee]

What does God say?

1 John 1
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

God/john also said something about a cannot sin, because the seed remains in the one born of God? How do you marry these two passages?

I don't believe Jesus ever said he was without sin. This would be more in line with proving that he was the son of God, as he said to Pilate, thou sayest (If I remember correctly).

 

[Rescued One]

God/john also said something about a cannot sin, because the seed remains in the one born of God? How do you marry these two passages?

I don't believe Jesus ever said he was without sin. This would be more in line with proving that he was the son of God, as he said to Pilate, thou sayest (If I remember correctly).

We are being sanctified. IOW, the seed is growing. We will be like him in the future --- when we see him as he is.

Matthew 13
1 The same day went Jesus out of the house, and sat by the sea side.

2 And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.

3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;

4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:

5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:

6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.

7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:

8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.

9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

1 Corinthians 3:6
6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.

 

[Aseyesee]

We are being sanctified. IOW, the seed is growing. We will be like him in the future --- when we see him as he is.

Matthew 13
1 The same day went Jesus out of the house, and sat by the sea side.

2 And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.

3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;

4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:

5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:

6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.

7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:

8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.

9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

1 Corinthians 3:6
6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.

There's one day. And there's right now. Relationship is a now thing no matter where you are at in the process.

Sanctification is a good word, or another way of describing the same process, like Kenneth's (from another thread similar to this), word coccurence, or genrations, or another one of Paul's, a glory unto glory, it denotes a deepening of the relationship for the individual. The Bible repeats this over and over in ways I have found to numerous to count, and has, and is multipling this in people.

Israel stumbled and fell for the same reason Adam stumbled and fell, by what the commandment became to them, in their own mind, but even this was part of the process.

 

[JIMINZ]

Some of you might know that on here, I been speaking out at the concept of sinless perfectionism...
Comments...

God Bless!

Maybe you should make things easier to talk about by first separating the two subjects.
1) Sinlesness, 2) Perfectionism

So taking it one at a time, I will ask you, for a Christian who espouses a Sinless state of being.

1) How do you suppose they are able to make such a claim?
2) What would you say it is, which allows a Christian to become Sinless?

As an example, there are Scripture verses such as this one, which tell us something about the Christian condition.

1 John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

But the sticking point with these types of Verses is, no matter how many someone can produce, they do not convince you, because they do not educate you as to HOW the Christian who claims to be Sinless, arrived in that position to begin with.

You see, it isn't as simple as waking up one morning and declaring themselves to be Sinless, it is a process, but it doesn't take years to walk out.

Let me ask you.
1) Are you a Christian?
2) Have you been Baptized?
3) Are you Born Again?

Now, are you able to produce Scripture which would verify your professed position?

One verse for each question will suffice.

No explanation or Interpretation necessary, Scripture itself should do the Verification.

Be Blessed

 

[1stcenturylady]

There are two types of sin. Unintentional and willful. Those who claim sinlessness can do so because it is willful sin that can separate you from God, whereas unintentional sin does not - those sins are automatically cleansed by the blood of Jesus, making those sins white as snow. Therefore, if you know something to be sin - just say no. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.

An example of an unintentional sin is misrepresenting scripture. For instance, 1 John 1:8 is very commonly used throughout the church to justify sin in the life of a Christian, whereas no apostle has ever done that. John was not speaking of true Christians there, but those in his congregation who were being influenced by the Gnostics who were infiltrating the church. The Gnostics, especially the Nicolaitans did not believe Jesus came in the flesh, as John speaks against in chapter four. "Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world." Because our spirit goes to heaven and our body of flesh is left and changed, they believed that sins of the flesh were not sins at all, thus they said they did not have sin even though they willfully sinned sexually everyday with each other's wives. THIS is what John was referring to in 1 John 1:6, 8 and 10. NOT someone who walks in the Spirit. That is in verse 7 and should apply to all of us. "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin." Notice the sins committed while walking in the Spirit are automatically cleansed without repentance. Why? They are not known to us yet. Would any of you who chant 1 John 1:8 as a mantra to justify your own sin confess misappropriating this verse of scripture? No, you don't recognize it as sin. It is already forgiven. But, if you now continue to do so willfully with a stiff-neck, that is another matter altogether, and only repentance will cleanse it.

Here is what John believes about Christians.

1 John 1:7 "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

1 John 2:1 "My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.

1 John 3:4-6 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

By Paul:

Romans 6:1-2 "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?

In Romans 7 Paul shows how trying to keep the law in your own strength is frustrating. This is also commonly taught that Paul is showing the Christian life of the battle between the mind and the flesh. NO! Paul is referring to mankind, namely the Jews, who had the law, but no strength within themselves. He says at the end, "O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

Romans 8:1 "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Romans 8:8-9 "8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are NOT in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

So how can we make literally having the Holy Spirit indwell us to make us sinless and perfect?

Peter:

Acts 2:38-39 “REPENT, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”

Many Christians, especially those who write posts against sinlessness, have never done that one crucial step. Repentance. You absolutely cannot be sinless in your own power. Only God is sinless, and He has to be in you for you to also even hope to have your conscience heightened to such a degree of sensitivity that you hate what God hates, and loves what God loves, therefore, making living righteous very easy to do. You are a new creature.

Repentance means two things. Completely turning away from all known sin, and, secondly, completely turning to God for everything. Know and trust that God is in control of every aspect of your life. Be anxious for nothing. Spend time with Him. Talk to Him throughout the day. Always be in a spirit of thankfulness. Thank Him for every good thing you see - a sunset, another day of life, a flower - everything!

 

[JIMINZ]

There are two types of sin. Unintentional and willful. Those who claim sinlessness can do so because it is willful sin that can separate you from God, whereas unintentional sin does not - those sins are automatically cleansed by the blood of Jesus, making those sins white as snow. Therefore, if you know something to be sin - just say no. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.

An example of an unintentional sin is misrepresenting scripture. For instance, 1 John 1:8 is very commonly used throughout the church to justify sin in the life of a Christian, whereas no apostle has ever done that. John was not speaking of true Christians there, but those in his congregation who were being influenced by the Gnostics who were infiltrating the church. The Gnostics, especially the Nicolaitans did not believe Jesus came in the flesh, as John speaks against in chapter four. "Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world." Because our spirit goes to heaven and our body of flesh is left and changed, they believed that sins of the flesh were not sins at all, thus they said they did not have sin even though they willfully sinned sexually everyday with each other's wives. THIS is what John was referring to in 1 John 1:6, 8 and 10. NOT someone who walks in the Spirit. That is in verse 7 and should apply to all of us. "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin." Notice the sins committed while walking in the Spirit are automatically cleansed without repentance. Why? They are not known to us yet. Would any of you who chant 1 John 1:8 as a mantra to justify your own sin confess misappropriating this verse of scripture? No, you don't recognize it as sin. It is already forgiven. But, if you now continue to do so willfully with a stiff-neck, that is another matter altogether, and only repentance will cleanse it.

Here is what John believes about Christians.

1 John 1:7 "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

1 John 2:1 "My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.

1 John 3:4-6 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

By Paul:

Romans 6:1-2 "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?

In Romans 7 Paul shows how trying to keep the law in your own strength is frustrating. This is also commonly taught that Paul is showing the Christian life of the battle between the mind and the flesh. NO! Paul is referring to mankind, namely the Jews, who had the law, but no strength within themselves. He says at the end, "O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

Romans 8:1 "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Romans 8:8-9 "8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are NOT in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

So how can we make literally having the Holy Spirit indwell us to make us sinless and perfect?

Peter:

Acts 2:38-39 “REPENT, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”

Many Christians, especially those who write posts against sinlessness, have never done that one crucial step. Repentance. You absolutely cannot be sinless in your own power. Only God is sinless, and He has to be in you for you to also even hope to have your conscience heightened to such a degree of sensitivity that you hate what God hates, and loves what God loves, therefore, making living righteous very easy to do. You are a new creature.

Repentance means two things. Completely turning away from all known sin, and, secondly, completely turning to God for everything. Know and trust that God is in control of every aspect of your life. Be anxious for nothing. Spend time with Him. Talk to Him throughout the day. Always be in a spirit of thankfulness. Thank Him for every good thing you see - a sunset, another day of life, a flower - everything!

A perfect example for Paul's teaching.

1Tim. 2:11,12
11) Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12) But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

1Cor. 14:34,35
34) Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35) And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

Be Blessed

 

[1stcenturylady]

A perfect example for Paul's teaching.

1Tim. 2:11,12
11) Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12) But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

1Cor. 14:34,35
34) Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35) And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

Be Blessed

I see it hit home and you don't like to be taught when you already know it all. LOL

Besides, that didn't apply to women with the gift of prophecy.

Acts 2:17
And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Acts 21:9
And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy.

Open your mind and your spirit to the Holy Spirit. You obviously don't know as much as you think you do. Don't let Jesus say to you, "I never knew you."

 

[DrBubbaLove]

God/john also said something about a cannot sin, because the seed remains in the one born of God? How do you marry these two passages?

I don't believe Jesus ever said he was without sin. This would be more in line with proving that he was the son of God, as he said to Pilate, thou sayest (If I remember correctly).

Heb 4 "For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who in every respect has been tested as we are, yet without sin."

Gal 2 "But if, in our effort to be justified in Christ, we ourselves have been found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not!

1 Pet 2 "He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth.”
1 Pet 1 "but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without defect or blemish."

Is 53:10 'When you make his life an offering for sin,"​