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Some claim Jesus had faith

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Jesus is YHWH, Sep 6, 2020.

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  1. Jesus is YHWH

    Jesus is YHWH my Lord and my God ! Supporter

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    Did Jesus have Faith ?

    1-Jesus used the word pistis or its derivatives a total of 41 times. Look it up in your concordance if you own one.
    2- Every time Jesus used the word He was talking about someone else’s faith and not “ His Faith “
    3- Jesus never used the faith in the first person referring to His “ Faith “.
    4- No book in the entire NT ever refers to “ Jesus Faith “
    5- Jesus is always the object of Faith never the recipient of faith
    6- All the Apostles refers to their own faith in Christ .
    7- Saving Faith is in Christ alone
    8- God has no need for Faith
    9- The Savior has no need for faith since He is not a sinner and He is God
    10- Faith is needed for sinners alone and not the Holy Son of God who was / is Impeccable


    Faith is the belief in things unseen. Remember the words of the Author of Hebrews: “Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen” (11:1).

    hope this helps !!!
     
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  2. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    "Faith" in the Biblical (and, hence, Christian) sense refers to having a commitment to Jesus as Savior on our part. That being the case, it wouldn't make sense to insist that Jesus believe in himself!

    But not anything and everything that happens to be unseen.
     
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  3. public hermit

    public hermit social troglodyte Supporter

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    You've mention Jesus's use of the word. What about Paul's use? When you say, "Some claim Jesus had faith" are you including the Pistis Christou debate? Or, do you think the abiguity of the genitive of pistis contributes to why some might think faith/faithfulness could be attributed to Jesus? I'm just curious. The subjective genitive of pistis could be translated "faith of Christ," but I don't think even that would mean Christ had faith, so much as Christ was faithful. At any rate, Greek can be tricky.
     
  4. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

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    Faith comes from hearing the Word of Christ.

    Jesus is that Word.
     
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  5. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Staff Member Purple Team - Moderator Supporter

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    What does this abstract word faith, of Greek philosophy, mean from a Hebraic understanding? If we want to understand YHWH's message; we would do well to approach that understanding in the language, and from the culture, in which his word was given.

    Greek is an ethereal abstract language. Hebrew is a concrete language. The concrete is what we can perceive with our five senses. Faith can mean many things in the imaginations of those who think in abstract terms.

    The concrete Hebrew word, for the abstract abstract Greek word "faith," is emunah H530.

    The first place where it appears in scripture is in Exodus.

    (CLV) Ex 17:12
    When the hands of Moses became heavy, they took a stone and placed it beneath him, and he sat on it. As for Aaron and Hur, they upheld his hands, one on this side and one on that side. So it came to be that his hands were constant (H530) until the sunset.

    It literally means firmness. Moses held his hands firm.

    The root of the word emunah is aman (H539). Aman means firm.

    It's used in Isaiah to describe something being nailed in place.

    (CLV) Isa 22:23
    I will fasten him like a peg in a sure place (H539), and he will become a throne of glory to his father's house.

    Who is YHWH talking about in Isaiah 22:23?
     
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  6. hedrick

    hedrick Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Indeed. Rom 3:3, 1 Cor 1:9, 2 Cor 1:18 say that God is faithful. It gets translated faithful when it applies to God, but it's the same word. When applied to Jesus there's the ambiguity you mention, but surely at least some of the passages refer to the faithfulness of Christ.

    For people who think this is a different thing, it's quite likely that when Paul talks about our faith, he means our faithfulness as well. Of course it can also mean trust, which I think is typical in the Gospels. Jesus prays to the Father, which seems like an obvious sign of faith, at least when understood as trust. Jesus may have felt that it was better to show his faith in the Father rather than talking about it. That would be typical of his teaching style.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2020
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  7. public hermit

    public hermit social troglodyte Supporter

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    If we take it, at least to some extent, as a subjective genitive, then the idea is that we should imitate the faithfulness of Christ. Of course, his own faithfulness is the result of his trust in God, as you mention. In my mind, the faithfulness and faith, as revealed in him and expected of us, are two sides of the same coin. Good stuff.
     
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  8. Jesus is YHWH

    Jesus is YHWH my Lord and my God ! Supporter

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    Faith and trust do overlapp, but this doesn't make them synonymous. One factor to take into account for is that "faith" is never attributed to Jesus Christ as mentioned in the OP. This is odd, for pistis and its cognates are the dominant words for "faith" and "believing." One could never have asked of Jesus, "Do you believe in God? Do you have faith in God?" Why not? Because he is the Savior to whom faith points! He had every confidence, trust, that the Father's will would be done through him, even when the moments were dark. However, "faith" and "believing" are soteric catogeries, pointing to deliverance from sin through God's promises FULFILLED IN THE MESSIAH. Was Jesus to have faith in himself?

    Jesus was in constant communion with the Father; he revealed all things to the Son. The Father-Son relationship, in my view, precludes faith and in the NT Christ is always the object of faith.

    It is odd that the NT never attributes “believing” or “faith” to Christ as an action. There is a reason for this- it is not a pure argument from silence- namely, that Jesus is the object of faith. It is this that makes the “silence” of pistis so deafeningly loud! The Son trusted that all things in respect of his Messiahship would be fulfilled by the Father in him; and they were. Jesus was the Messiah, and sinners believe in Him as God.

    hope this helps !!!
     
  9. BrotherJJ

    BrotherJJ Well-Known Member

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    OP: Some claim Jesus had faith

    They would be correct!

    Jesus Himself say's it here:

    Acts 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
    NOTE: Jesus say's FAITH is in Him)

    Paul say's it here: Rom 3:22, Gal 2:16, 2:20, 3:22, Phil 3:9
    (NOTE: By the faith "OF" Christ)

    2 Timothy 3:16 (A) All scripture is given by inspiration of God
     
  10. public hermit

    public hermit social troglodyte Supporter

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    What do you think was happening when he cried out in the garden, "Yet, not my will, but Thine be done"? Faith and faithfulness.
     
  11. Jesus is YHWH

    Jesus is YHWH my Lord and my God ! Supporter

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    He always knew the Fathers will and did the Fathers will.
     
  12. Tigger45

    Tigger45 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I’m thinking faith can sometimes refer to ‘believe in’ and/or other times as ‘loyalty to’ particularly as associated with faithfulness.
     
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  13. public hermit

    public hermit social troglodyte Supporter

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    But, he still had to trust it. Christ trusted God, which was a fulfillment of his incarnation. There's no getting around it.
     
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  14. Jesus is YHWH

    Jesus is YHWH my Lord and my God ! Supporter

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    If by trust you mean that the Father trusts the Son, and the Son trusts the Father, and the Holy Spirit trusts the Father and the Son then I agree.
     
  15. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Staff Member Purple Team - Moderator Supporter

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    If we truly "believe in," wouldn't we automatically be "loyal to?"
     
  16. public hermit

    public hermit social troglodyte Supporter

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    No, I'm not denying the Trinity. But I am affirming the human experience of trust. If he didn't experience what we do, then the incanation is incomplete.
     
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  17. Tigger45

    Tigger45 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Yes but then again they are also not synonymous to each other so its worth considering especially when used by God towards us as reference in an earlier post Romans 3:3.
     
  18. Jesus is YHWH

    Jesus is YHWH my Lord and my God ! Supporter

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    I'm sorry but the Son is Eternal and all doctrine begins with the nature and attributes of God shared between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The Person of Christ is divine this is basic Christology 101.

    I don't begin with man and his human wisdom and reasoning.
     
  19. hedrick

    hedrick Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Take a look at the Synoptics to see how "faith" is used. It's typically used by Jesus, referring to something that allows miracles to occur. (Indeed, in Matthew, which I just checked, I think all of the uses are that.)

    The TDNT article says that in Judaism (which would mean Judaism in the 1st Cent), faith could mean faithfulness and obedience as well as hope and expectation, which they also refer to as trust. Originally it's trust in God's promise. For what it's worth, the Reformers said that faith typically means trust.

    The Greek verb means rely on, trust, or believe in. The noun pistis also has the dual meaning of faithfulness and trust. There's a whole section on faith in Paul and John, which isn't relevant to the passages I was mentioning. (Really, the article is almost of whole book, so I'm clearly not doing justice to it.)

    I believe that when Jesus said that someone's faith healed them, he mean faith in the sense of trusting in God's promises. It is not likely that it is faith in the modern sense of believing that some proposition is true.

    While Jesus doesn't use the term faith here, this is the attitude of the children that came to him, and Jesus' own attitude to his abba.
     
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  20. hedrick

    hedrick Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Pistis has a wide range of meanings. But most can be summarized either as faithfulness or trust. In English translations the pistis is often translated faithfulness rather than faith when that's the likely meaning (although there's a lot of ambiguity in Paul's phrase faith/faithfulness of Christ).
     
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