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Solomons Temple not on present day Temple Mount?

Discussion in 'Israel Prophecy & Current Events' started by Lulav, Jan 28, 2008.

  1. Lulav

    Lulav Older than ZIP Codes Staff Member Administrator CF Staff Trainer Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    Was Solomons Temple not where the present day temple mount is?

    Take a look at this presentation
    http://www.biblemysteries.com/lectures/nihemahwall.htm

    [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, helvetica, Verdana]The highest point on the East Hill of course is "The Sakhra" on which the Dome of the Rock was built. Until now it was believed to be the site on which Solomon built the Temple, but it is much more logical that it was the site of a fortress to protect the Northern end of David's small city.

    Read more here
    http://www.biblemysteries.com/library/temples.htm



    [/FONT][/FONT]

    [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica] [FONT=Arial, helvetica, Verdana]TEMPLE[/FONT] [/FONT]
    [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, helvetica, Verdana]THE TEMPLE - Part I & Part II [/FONT][/FONT]
    [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, helvetica, Verdana]AKRA [/FONT][/FONT]
    [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, helvetica, Verdana]ZION [/FONT][/FONT]
    [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, helvetica, Verdana]NEHEMIAH'S WALL[/FONT][/FONT]
    [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, helvetica, Verdana]THE SEPULCHRES OF DAVID [/FONT][/FONT]
    [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, helvetica, Verdana]THE PROOF[/FONT][/FONT]
    [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, helvetica, Verdana]SOLOMON'S TEMPLE COMPLEX[/FONT][/FONT]
    [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, helvetica, Verdana]TEMPLE COMPLEX PRESS RELEASE[/FONT][/FONT]
    [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, helvetica, Verdana]TEMPLE PROBLEMS[/FONT] [/FONT]
     
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  2. Codger

    Codger Regular Member

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    I wrote this in the past two days and posted it on another forum on CF. Because of the large Dispensational following on this site it didn't go over well at all. It will probably do even less here.

    A brief history of Jerusalem and the Temples.


    A long time ago (in the post flood era - 2318BC) there was a huge crescent shaped hill in the land of Moriah among the many hills or mountains in this land. The two points of the crescent shaped hill pointed east. The hill was long and had a depression in the middle. The upper hill had on its side a spring. The steep sides of the southern end of the hill was a natural fortification. This was an ideal site for protection from enemies and marauders. The first requirements for building a city in those days was to have protection and an adequate water supply and access to it in case of a siege by an enemy. This location was ideal.

    The first time we see this place in Bible history was in the days of Abraham (1878BC) when the King of the city that was built on this hill came out to meet Abraham - his name was Melchezidek and the city back then was called Jebus. I don’t know when this city became occupied by the Jebusites, Jebus was also called Jeru-Salem. Salem was the name of the Canaanite god of the morning? (or twilight).

    Hundreds of years later King David (985BC) conquered this Fortified Jebusite city by entering through the water tunnels going to the spring on the northern hill. He captured the city and refortified it with stronger walls and filled in part of the valley (Millo) between the two hills. He built up the city along with a palace and it became known as the city of David. The name migrated in meaning to the city of peace (Jeru - shalom).

    God would not allow David to build him a temple because of all the blood he had shed. This task fell to his son Solomon. Solomon built the Temple on the site that was purchased by David from Araunah, who used it for a threshing floor. (986BC) This site was on top of the northern part of the hill or mountain we have been discussing. So the Temple of Solomon was located just North of the original City of David. Solomon filled in completely the partial valley between the two hills. Now it was just one single hill.

    In the time of the war with Antiochus and his descendants, the Syrians had conquered the city of David and were using the fortress to stage raids against the Jews and the Temple. This went on for about 20 years and finally Simon the Hasmonian routed the Syrians (second century BC) and retook the city of David. However this was such a problem for them that Simon convinced the people to cut the southern mountain fortress (city of David) down to bedrock, so it could never be used against them as it had used by the Syrians. It took the people 3 years of work day and night to literally eliminate the old city of David to nothingness.

    Many of the buildings of the original City of David were moved to the adjacent hill to the west of the now destroyed city of David and this area is what was later again called “The city of David” - but David never lived there. The city of David, which was the original “Mt Zion” was totally destroyed. The Title of “Mt Zion” also moved to the newly built City of David on the western hill. The Temple was built over the Spring on the north side - the Gihon Spring.

    Simon the Hasmonian was a great builder and in his projects of building he got crosswise with the Essenes who refer to him in their (Dead Sea) Temple Scroll as the “Wicked Priest.” They did not approve of what he was doing. He built another fortress to replace the city of David to the North of the Temple area and it was called in his day “The Baris.” Later, the Baris was enlarged and upgraded by Herod in his day and was renamed “Fort Antonia” in honor of Mark Anthony.

    There is historical evidence that Simon replaced the Temple that was built by Solomon and rebuilt by Ezra et al. Although the Temple was initially cleansed and restored - This Temple was so polluted by Antiochus that they decided to do away with it. Simon rebuilt it and doubled its size. Solomon built it (Temple Mount) 150 feet wide originally and Simon doubled the width to 300 feet wide and 500 feet long. I’m guessing that the reason for this was that so they could build the new Temple along side of the old and then would tear down the old after the new Temple was constructed. Herod replaced Simon’s temple and redoubled it yet again to 600 feet wide and 600 feet long. The overall height of the south east corner was also 600 feet high down to bedrock, which was 150 feet underground: it was a cube.

    So what do we end up with? The old Jebusite fortress or City of David to the south of the Temple was destroyed and the earth was totally removed down to the bedrock. It was now called “The lower city.” Next to the north was the Temple - still remaining on the hill often referred to as Mt Moriah. Each time the Temple was expanded it was expanded toward the north. The only thing that remained from Solomon’s day was the structure on the Temple Mount to the south called “Solomon’s Porch.” Josephus tells us that there was a 600 foot long double roadway on the west end that connected Fort Antonia to the Temple. This gave the Roman soldiers quick access to the Temple. So between the Temple and Fort Antonia there was also a matching 600 foot courtyard. In the modern Jewish version there is no room for this 600 foot roadway as they have put a very tiny “Fort Antonia” in direct contact on the north of the real Fort Antonia, which they insist on calling “The Temple Mount” - not so by any means.

    The real Fort Antonia billeted a legion of troops around 6,000 in number. In permanent Roman camps the population often doubled with all of the auxiliaries that were hired by the military. The Fort Antonia that the Jews picture today could not hold any where near this number of troops not to mention the auxiliaries.

    So - where was the Temple? Where it has always been throughout history - it was on the Northern hill of the crescent over the Gihon Spring. Find the Gihon Spring and you have found the Temple location. The Temple of Herod including the huge massive Temple Mount was totally destroyed down to the last stone - just like Jesus said it would be. What remains? Just the Baris/Fort Antonia which was to the north of the Temple by a space of 600 feet. So measure 600 feet from the existing southern wall of the real Fort Antonia today and then measure another 600 feet and that is where the Temple sat in history.

    If the Jews of today would accept the many facts of history they would realize the ancient Temple’s true location; and the world wide zealots who need to rebuild the Temple because their eschatology depends on it - could do so tomorrow morning by just moving a highway and some other things south of the Fortress Antonia as it is today. But the untruths that they insist on for political reasons are frustrating their belief system. The so called “Temple Mount” (the real Fortress Antonia) in Jesus day was a hated and despised structure and today Fort Antonia is in the hands of the enemies of Israel - the Muslims. Personally, I see this as God’s way of frustrating the Zealots’ ambitions and herding them over to the foot of the cross. I don’t think that God is directing anyone back to the Old Covenant.

    The entire book of Hebrews in the NT is directed specifically to the Messianic Christians who were returning back into Judaism in the face of persecution from Nero. There is no going back either for the Christian or non Christian Jews of Today. There is only the one Cross of Christ.
     
  3. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    Probably true.. It also might help when others figure out that the true sight is not where the Dome is and thus they are able to start building... rather than fight over the same spot for worship. Mohammed was not good with history or archeology.
     
  4. Torah613

    Torah613 Frum in the Chood yo!

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    even if this is true, we cannot start building because their is no red heifer. A mitzvah is a Mitzvah after all.

    Yochanan
     
  5. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    God will provide the red heifer when the time is right.
     
  6. Torah613

    Torah613 Frum in the Chood yo!

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    precisely, so why worry about starting to build when its not possible yet? why not instead spend our time spreading emunah and doing tzedakhah. Then the heifer will be born, Moshiach will reveal himself, and there will be peace.

    Yochanan
     
  7. Codger

    Codger Regular Member

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    The're pretty hard to come by. I hear there have only been nine found in history. There is also no Mipkad alter to sacrifice it on. That also would have to be built. The original location in Jesus' day was on the top of the Mount Of Olives to the east. Just outside of "The Camp" of Israel, which according to Moses, was a 2,000 cubit (3,000') radius from the center of the Holy Place (Heichal) room. Jesus was also crucified near this point "outside the camp" near the Miphkad alter. The Parah was a type of Christ but that is another topic.

    What design Temple would be built? Herod - Ezekiel. Would it be built by hands or the Messiah? A lot of confusion in this area.

    Larry
     
  8. Torah613

    Torah613 Frum in the Chood yo!

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    well that is a whole big topic, on which there is some disagreement. On the one hand you have those who believe it is a mitzvah to rebuild the temple now and then have Moshiach remodel it. Then you have those who believe that Moshiach will reveal himself shortly after the red heifer is born.

    Right now, they are trying to breed the red heifer. Fact of the matter is, there was a good candidate a couple years back that at exactly 18 months spotted a tuft of white hair and was thus disqualified. This is a sign that we are very close. We (bnai Yisroel) need to do more Tshuva and have more Emunah.

    The building of the altar will not be a difficulty. All the halachic qualifications there can already be easily met. We also, for the first time in 2000 years, have a whole cadre of young kohanim who are ritually clean and can serve in the temple once the final purifcations are done.

    As to the shape of the temple itself, it will meet the halachic qualifications laid out in Torah for the temple to have. The big difference is, the Torah will go out from it to all nations (as it did before--but on a much larger scale). Zachariah tells us that when the Messiah comes, ten gentiles will grab hold of the kissel of every Jew and say "take and show us the Torah, show us how to worship HaShem, for we have been worshipping false gods." It is safe to deduce from this that there will be an expanded courtyard for the ger toshavim.

    The other thing the prophets tell us about the third temple is that water will flow out from it (presumably from an underground spring on the mount itself similar to those used to fill the mikvaot in 2nd temple times) and turn the dead sea to fresh water.

    It can also reasonably be deduced that in overall size, the third temple complex will be larger than the previous two (more Jews around today as well as the aforementioned righteous aliens). There will probably also be more space for study of Torah.

    There are a myriad of other prophecies about the third and final temple/the messianic age, but these are the biggest.

    Yochanan
     
  9. Torah613

    Torah613 Frum in the Chood yo!

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    I should also mention that there is a minority position that other than the red heifer, there will be no animal sacrifices in the third temple. This is based upon prophecies that in the messianic age we will be vegetarians. This is a minority position only, but IMO worthy of mention.

    Yochanan
     
  10. ContraMundum

    ContraMundum Messianic Jewish Christian Supporter

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    "And now for something completely different"......the old-skool Christian perspective...

    The Dome of the Rock is there for a reason. God allowed it and it remains. Why? He's done the ultimate sacrifice already. We can't offer him a dead cow when He's given His Son. He sent Gentile armies to destroy the Temple to make this point.

    Also, the Kohanim we have cannot be proven to actually be Kohanim- the records being destroyed, Ezekiel's Temple vision speaks of the "Sons of Zadok" ministering in the Temple and no one knows or agrees exactly on who or where they are, Ezekiel's Temple is larger than the Temple Mount so it won't fit there, Jesus said He was the Temple anyway and the people of God are built upon Him, God stopped accepting the sacrifices of animals before the last Temple was destroyed yet after the crucifixion of His Son - so why would He be pleased with a dead animal now...etc etc.

    Just thought I would share a completely different point of view. Continue amongst yourselves. :)
     
  11. Codger

    Codger Regular Member

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    ContraMundum;51208838]"And now for something completely different"......the old-skool Christian perspective...

    The Dome of the Rock is there for a reason. God allowed it and it remains. Why? He's done the ultimate sacrifice already. We can't offer him a dead cow when He's given His Son. He sent Gentile armies to destroy the Temple to make this point.

    The only reference to the stone there is in Pilot's day it was possibly the place of Judgment (praetorium) where Christ appeared.

    Also, the Kohanim we have cannot be proven to actually be Kohanim- the records being destroyed, Ezekiel's Temple vision speaks of the "Sons of Zadok" ministering in the Temple and no one knows or agrees exactly on who or where they are, Ezekiel's Temple is larger than the Temple Mount so it won't fit there, Jesus said He was the Temple anyway and the people of God are built upon Him, God stopped accepting the sacrifices of animals before the last Temple was destroyed yet after the crucifixion of His Son - so why would He be pleased with a dead animal now...etc etc.

    One jewish Rabbi stated that the Jews cannot trace their ancestery back more than 300 years. The records do not survive due to wars mostly. All the records from Jerusalem were lost in the war in 70AD.

    Just thought I would share a completely different point of view. Continue amongst yourselves. :)
     
  12. Torah613

    Torah613 Frum in the Chood yo!

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    interesting, albeit from my POV completely odd, perspective. Even before I made Tshuva I never believed this. It was clear to me that in the OT it states clearly that there will be another Beis HaMikdash.

    Yochanan
     
  13. ContraMundum

    ContraMundum Messianic Jewish Christian Supporter

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    It's a matter of interpretation. I don't support the modern interpretation, as you know.
     
  14. DennisTate

    DennisTate Newbie Supporter

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    The Gihon Spring Theory is really quite exceptional.

    If it is correct... the rebuilt Jerusalem Third TEmple would be a nice distance away from both the Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque.

    Ernest L. Martin - Wikipedia

     
  15. DennisTate

    DennisTate Newbie Supporter

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    Exactly,..........
    and the timing is important because I believe that a Jerusalem Third Temple operational by 2030... would fit with prophecy... .and perhaps indicate a fulfillment of the New Jerusalem coming down...... by 3030.......
     
  16. BukiRob

    BukiRob Newbie

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    I don't think the temple was on the dome of the rock. I think that whole area was Fort Antonia.

    Reasons are largely logical. #1 an occupying Roman Army would NEVER ceed the high ground... EVER.
    #2 The distance from the Gihon spring and the temple mount just does not work for several reasons. ritual cleanliness of the Priests and the temple sacrifice make it completely unfeasible.

    #3 recent archeological discoveries prove that a temple is in the city of David. They are not willing to state who's temple it is but there is unmistakable evidence that there IS an ancient temple there.
     
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