Sola scriptura or ECF-like traditions of man? Christ in Mark 7

Barney2.0

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You cannot very well blaspheme against Mary unless she turns out to be the fourth person of the Blessed Quadrinity. o_O
The term Theotokos doesn’t indicate divinity, it’s only blasphemy to say she’s co-creator or co-equal with members of the trinity. Luckily I’m sure no one does that here, removing the title Theotokos from Mary means she did not give birth to true God and separates Christ’s nature's.
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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Perhaps the saints and angels too give good advice?
Only if their advice is totally consistent with the true gospel that Paul preached as described in the book of Galatians.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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Is this an example of Jesus saying "the scripture fits your so-called holy tradition so lets accept it since it is inline with your teaching"??

Or does it illustrate "the opposite"?

What Jesus says in Mark 7 simply doesn't apply to what I'm talking about. If you are insistent about saying all men's words are essentially useless, a hyper sola scriptura view, then why are you even bothering to speak yourself? Quote scripture, don't give your man made interpretation that we can rightly throw out because it is derived not from scripture but from your apprehension of the scripture.

You don't believe that which is why you feel the need to explain or ask a non-biblical question which you think refutes me in some way. Jesus is telling us to follow God before men, of which is absolutely true. But when you apply what Jesus is saying with regards to the Pharisees as if it also applies to the Church's tradition that's connection doesn't necessarily work.

Of course it could be true that there are individual practices or traditions that we have that could violate what Christ revealed. No one who holds to those positions actually believes it though. When I insist on an Apostolic clergy I am not doing so in spite of the scripture but because I believe it is in accord with the scripture and the earliest Church structure we see in history.

Bottom line is you cannot invalidate the entirety of the Christian tradition simply because it's not in the bible. Even you have to rely on it in some respects when it comes to the origin of the biblical canon. When it comes to standard Christian prayers and practices. This is why I asked earlier if you trust in your SDA theologians and teachers. I bet you do. I bet you look to them for guidance when interpreting the bible. I bet you are not alone in your theological outlook and depend on others. The same is true of me. I am not inventing a brand new theology, I am relying on the collective wisdom of 2000 years.

Please in response to this. Don't copy paste a wall of biblical text. Engage with me as a person and not a robot.
 
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GingerBeer

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Only if their advice is totally consistent with the true gospel that Paul preached as described in the book of Galatians.
I think it was Jesus who preached the gospel and Paul preached what he is reported to have heard and learned from Jesus.
 
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Mathetes66

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Let us listen to the APOSTLE Paul concerning what he taught, whether by word of mouth, traditions or epistles & FROM WHERE THIS CAME.

I Cor 4:6 Now, brethren, I have applied these things to myself & Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us THE MEANING of the saying, "Do not go BEYOND what is written." Then you will not be puffed up in being a follower of one of us over against the other.

I Cor 4:16-18 I appeal to you therefore, be followers (imitators) of me. That is why I have sent you Timothy, my beloved & faithful child in the Lord. He will remind you of my way of life in Christ Jesus, WHICH IS EXACTLY WHAT I TEACH EVERYWHERE IN EVERY CHURCH.

I Cor 7:17 Regardless, each one should lead the life that the Lord has assigned to him & to which God has called him. This is what I PRESCRIBE IN ALL THE CHURCHES.

Gal 1:1ff Paul, an apostle—NOT FROM MEN NOR THROUGH MAN, but through Jesus Christ & God the Father...I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you in the grace of Christ & are turning to a different gospel—

As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.

For I would have you KNOW, brothers, that the gospel that was preached by me is NOT man’s gospel. For I did NOT RECEIVE IT FROM ANY MAN NOR WAS I TAUGHT IT, BUT RECEIVED IT THROUGH A REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST.

Acts 26:14-16 I heard a voice saying to me in the HEBREW LANGUAGE, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’ And I said, ‘Who are you, Lord?’ And the Lord said, ‘I AM JESUS whom you are persecuting.

16But rise & stand upon your feet, for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to appoint you as a servant & witness to the things in which you have seen me & to those in which I will appear to you, delivering you from your people & from the Gentiles—to whom I am sending you--

18to open their eyes, so that they may turn from darkness to light & from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins & a place among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’

Acts 22:9ff ‘I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting,’ He replied...Then I asked, ‘What shall I do, Lord?’ ‘Get up & go into Damascus,’ He told me. ‘There you will be told all that you have been appointed to do.’

‘Brother Saul,’ he said, ‘receive your sight.’ And at that moment I could see him. 14Then he said, ‘The God of our fathers has appointed you to know His will & to see the Righteous One & to hear His voice. YOU WILL BE HIS WITNESS TO ALL MEN OF WHAT YOU HAVE SEEN & HEARD.

As you can see from Scripture, Paul did NOT receive TRADITIONS handed down to him from any man concerning the gospel. He received direct revelation from the Lord Himself & from the prophetic OT Scriptures, given by God to the prophets.

The other APOSTLES all agreed with Paul concerning what He taught (the 12 APOSTLES' TEACHING was directly SEEING & HEARING FROM CHRIST--just as Paul had)--and they offered him the right hand of fellowship & Paul didn't learn from them or had anything added to what the Lord revealed to him concerning the gospel message of the faith once for all delivered to the saints. (Gal 2:1-10; Jude 1:3)

Heb 1:1,2 IN THE PAST God spoke to our ancestors THROUGH THE PROPHETS at many times & in various ways, BUT IN THESE LAST DAYS HE HAS SPOKEN TO US BY HIS SON, whom He appointed heir of all things & through whom also He made the universe.

3The Son is the radiance of God’s glory & the exact representation of His being (substance, nature), sustaining all things BY HIS POWERFUL WORD.

Here is another excerpt from brother John MacArthur, internationally well known Bible expositor & preacher.

Grace to You

I Thess 2:13; 2 Thess 2:15

"It is fair to point out that the Thessalonians were at a disadvantage compared to Christians today. They did not have all the written books of NT Scripture. Paul wrote both of his epistles very early in the NT era—about 51AD.

The two letters were probably written only a few months apart & are among the very earliest of all the NT writings.

The Thessalonians’ primary source of gospel truth was Paul’s teaching. As an apostle, Paul taught with absolute authority. When he taught them, his message was the Word of God & he commended them for recognizing that:

“For this reason we also constantly thank God that when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as THE WORD OF MEN, but for what it really is, the word of God, which also performs its work in you who believe” (I Thess 2:13).

Elsewhere he said that the commandments he gave them were “by the authority of the Lord Jesus.” (I Thess 4:2)

The substance of what he taught them represented the same body of truth that is available to us in the NT. How do we know? Paul himself said so.

Even as he was recording his inspired epistle to them, he reminded them, “Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?” (2 Thess 2:5)

The written Word simply confirmed & recorded for all time the authoritative truth he had ALREADY TAUGHT THEM IN PERSON. These epistles were a written reminder of what they had already heard from Paul’s own mouth. (I Thess 4:2)

2 Thess 2:15 confirms this: “Stand firm & hold to the traditions which you WERE taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.”

There he declares, first of all, that his epistles to them are authoritative, inspired truth. This verse is a clear statement that Paul himself regarded these epistles as inspired Scripture.

But notice also that this verse joins the apostolic “traditions” with the written Word of God. The “traditions” necessary for Christians to be discerning are recorded for all ages in the text of Scripture.

Those who claim that apostolic tradition is other truth in addition to Scripture often attempt to use this verse for support. Note, however, that Paul is not saying that “the traditions [they] were taught” are different from the written Scriptures.

Rather, he links the two, affirming that the written Word of God is the only permanent & authoritative record of the apostolic tradition. He is specifically suggesting that the Thessalonians should not trust “word of mouth” or letters pretending to be from apostolic sources.

Only what they had heard firsthand from Paul’s own lips or read in authentic letters from him were they to treat as authoritative, divine truth.

That is why Paul usually signed his epistles “with [his] own hand.” (I Cor 16:21; Gal 6:11; Col 4:18; 2 Thess 3:17; Philemon 1:19)

With this in mind, 2 Thess 2:15 cannot be used to support the claim that extrabiblical, spiritually binding “apostolic tradition” is passed down VERBALLY through popes & bishops.

Paul’s whole point was that the Thessalonians should treat as authoritative only what they had heard from his own mouth or received from his own pen. That body of truth—the Word of God—was to be the measuring stick they used to examine all things.

Two other verses confirm this. In 2 Thess 3:6 Paul writes, “Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from every brother who leads an unruly life & not according to the tradition which you received from us.”

And in verse 14 he adds, “If anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of that person & do not associate with him, so that he will be put to shame.”

Therefore, Paul is affirming that the Bible is the only reliable criterion by which believers in this age can evaluate messages claiming to be truth from God."
 
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BobRyan

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Tradition is "that which is handed down". If it is received and then passed on to the next generation, it is Tradition. The Gospel is Tradition. The Christian faith as a whole is Tradition. Scripture is Tradition. Everything that is received and passed on is Tradition.

Some tradition was purely invented by man and contradicts the tradition given to us by God.

The text of Mark 7 does not show a "tradition vs tradition" argument by Christ.

There is no meaningful distinction between Scripture and Tradition. .

Is this an example of Jesus saying "no meaningful distinction between Scripture and Tradition"??

Or does it illustrate "the opposite"?

Mark 7
7 ‘But in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, is to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’ 12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

Each time "the solution" is proposed and we ask to "see that solution" used by Christ in Mark 7 --- all we see is the "lack of that solution" in Mark 7 and instead Christ only references scripture and then places it in opposition to tradition. In fact "many traditions" when He says -- "you do many things such as that"
 
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BobRyan

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No, no one is saying, "Scripture means nothing." No one.

consider the following example -

===========================

The doctrine of the Trinity -

The NT teaches this:

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Joh_14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Col 2:2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;

Col 2:3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Please stick with the historical sources of the Early Church Fathers.

Also, do not use I John 5:7 with Jehovah's Witnesses or with other Arians. Since, even they know it was an addition to the NT.

================================

Regarding the Bible doctrine on future judgment

BobRyan said:
instead of finding it in Daniel 7, 2 Cor 5:10 .. Romans 2 you want us to ignore the Bible and look for what comes centuries later??

Seriously??

The challenge of this thread is for you all to find your teachings in historical documents outside the bible. .
 
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Mountainmike

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I think you dived into the detail and missed the greater message.

I of course agree with you on the interpretarion of eucharist verses. Therefore tradition hands down (for us) only what scripture says.

Those arguing the case of a symbolic only eucharist would swear blind that the the verses means other things , and therefore our tradtion "goes beyond scripture" and therefore breaches sola scriptura.

Which proves that the ideas that "tradition is OK, provided it does not go beyond scripture" is a subjective (and depends on a priori assumption on what scripture means)

Which further demonstrates that scripture does not have unique meaning and needs another source of truth to resolve it, which we say is indeed the faith handed down. Tradition, which therefore does not contradict scripture it resolves conflicts in it. The contradiction only exists for those who do not accept the meaning handed by tradition or authority.

Which shows that the definition "sola scriptura" tradition going beyond scripture is subjective and depends on an a priori view of what scripture means. It demonstrates that that definition as many others of sola scriptura simply fail under a logical examination

Your final statement illustrates exactly the same point. Whilst I hope we agree as the jews did "bind and loose" means give definitive judgement on disputes of law and doctrine.

You say "At no point does this power allow for any of the Disciples to go beyond what the Master has laid down"
which whilst we agree, and is true it has the same logical flaw. It rather depends on what people apriori believe was laid down, as to whether they consider any went beyond it.

It demonstrates sola scriptura is a #fail because scripture needs another source of truth to resolve the conflicts.

The question that actually separates us is where is authority? And as you know our answer lies in the power to bind and loose, which gives power to councils and the church both to pronounce on doctrinal disputes, and also pass down the faith with veracity, we call sacred tradition.

A myriad of verses could prove the same point.

We believe the verse "those sins you would forgive/ retain " underpins sacramental confession. I have yet to see other credible explanation for that verse (certainly the retain), others are happy to say what it doesnt mean, never what it does mean, in any way that stands even basic logical testing.

but regardless of that, there is a verse that needs the dispute on doctrine that needs resolving. Which also proves that scripture does not give a unique interpretation.

Scripture tells us to take disputes to the church. Why so? if it has no power to resolve them? We believe the church does,as the "foundation of truth" then hands down the truth as tradition, and whether any regard that "tradition" as conflicting with scripture largely depends on what they think scripture means in the first place.

Proving the same point yet again.






Hey Mike. I was wondering if you were going to respond. Anyway, there are two cases being made here. I make the case for Sola Scriptura while if you read closely you are making the case for Sola Ecclessia. By Creed I am going to assume you mean the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed as formulated in 381. The Creed is correct not because a church council said it was rather it is correct because it reflects what Scripture clearly teaches. The Arian has the opposite problem in that he begins with presupposition that Jesus is not God instead of what scripture teaches and then interprets scripture according to said presupposition. So when confronted with the orthodox position he is then forced to strip mine the scripture for proof texts while ignoring on the whole what Scriptures actually says. This is not the fault of Sola Scriptura but rather the abuse thereof. So the question then becomes is the Creed correct because it reflects the truths of Scripture or is it true based one the authority of the church council? Our position is the church council no matter how esteemed receives its authority based on Scripture not the other way around. @Albion said basically the same thing but I wanted to tease out some nuance.


I think we need to unpack this a bit. You were using the same argument in another thread about Peter being the Rock in Matt 16:18. We actually agree here. Where we diverge is over the office of the Keys. Allow me to explain.
“I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.”

New American Standard Bible: 1995 update. (1995). (Mt 16:19). La Habra, CA: The Lockman Foundation.

So what's going on here. The Lord is using the imagery of Isaiah 22:20-22 by declaring Peter to be the Steward of the Kingdom of David like Eliakim in Isaiah 22:15. The steward is not the owner. He has both authority over the household and responsibility to his master to administer the affairs of the house properly. The keys are those of the storehouses, to enable him to make appropriate provision (think grain) for the household and not those of the outer gate to control admission. Contrast this with Shebna who misused the office of Steward for personal gain that included building a grand tomb for himself (Isaiah 22:16). To Bind and to Loose is also an administrative authority first given to Peter and then later to all the Disciples in Matt 18:18. It means what is permissible and what is not in the Kingdom. At no point does this power allow for any of the Disciples to go beyond what the Master has laid down.



I am glad that Ignatius and Justin Martyr agree with Scripture on this point. I will thank the chaps when I get to heaven. We agree on this point though disagree on how it happens. The point I would make is if you raise anything up to the authority of scripture in inevitably usurps scripture as the authority. I realize Rome teaches the Revelation is from both Scripture and Tradition however when the church gets to decide what is scripture and what is tradition that position is Sola Ecclessia.




.
 
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The text of Mark 7 does not show a "tradition vs tradition" argument by Christ.



Is this an example of Jesus saying "no meaningful distinction between Scripture and Tradition"??

Or does it illustrate "the opposite"?



Each time "the solution" is proposed and we ask to "see that solution" used by Christ in Mark 7 --- all we see is the "lack of that solution" in Mark 7 and instead Christ only references scripture and then places it in opposition to tradition. In fact "many traditions" when He says -- "you do many things such as that"
Mark 7 is not the only passage of Scripture, nor the only passage in which tradition is discussed.
 
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I think it was Jesus who preached the gospel and Paul preached what he is reported to have heard and learned from Jesus.
After leaving Damascus, he went into Arabia and spent three years there. He had met none of the Apostle until after that time, but while in Arabia, he was taught directly by Jesus through revelation. He said that, I think, in Galatians. He said that he did not learn his gospel from any of the Apostles, so he did not get it second hand. His time in Arabia being taught the gospel directly from Jesus, was equivalent to the three years the other Apostles had spent with Jesus before His crucifixion and resurrection. So, Paul was adamant that he did not receive his gospel by man, but by direct revelation from the Lord Himself. When he finally went to Jerusalem and met the Apostles, they confirmed that his gospel was exactly the same as theirs.
 
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Let us listen to the APOSTLE Paul concerning what he taught, whether by word of mouth, traditions or epistles & FROM WHERE THIS CAME.

I Cor 4:6 Now, brethren, I have applied these things to myself & Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us THE MEANING of the saying, "Do not go BEYOND what is written." Then you will not be puffed up in being a follower of one of us over against the other.

I Cor 4:16-18 I appeal to you therefore, be followers (imitators) of me. That is why I have sent you Timothy, my beloved & faithful child in the Lord. He will remind you of my way of life in Christ Jesus, WHICH IS EXACTLY WHAT I TEACH EVERYWHERE IN EVERY CHURCH.

I Cor 7:17 Regardless, each one should lead the life that the Lord has assigned to him & to which God has called him. This is what I PRESCRIBE IN ALL THE CHURCHES.

Gal 1:1ff Paul, an apostle—NOT FROM MEN NOR THROUGH MAN, but through Jesus Christ & God the Father...I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you in the grace of Christ & are turning to a different gospel—

As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.

For I would have you KNOW, brothers, that the gospel that was preached by me is NOT man’s gospel. For I did NOT RECEIVE IT FROM ANY MAN NOR WAS I TAUGHT IT, BUT RECEIVED IT THROUGH A REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST.

Acts 26:14-16 I heard a voice saying to me in the HEBREW LANGUAGE, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’ And I said, ‘Who are you, Lord?’ And the Lord said, ‘I AM JESUS whom you are persecuting.

16But rise & stand upon your feet, for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to appoint you as a servant & witness to the things in which you have seen me & to those in which I will appear to you, delivering you from your people & from the Gentiles—to whom I am sending you--

18to open their eyes, so that they may turn from darkness to light & from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins & a place among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’

Acts 22:9ff ‘I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting,’ He replied...Then I asked, ‘What shall I do, Lord?’ ‘Get up & go into Damascus,’ He told me. ‘There you will be told all that you have been appointed to do.’

‘Brother Saul,’ he said, ‘receive your sight.’ And at that moment I could see him. 14Then he said, ‘The God of our fathers has appointed you to know His will & to see the Righteous One & to hear His voice. YOU WILL BE HIS WITNESS TO ALL MEN OF WHAT YOU HAVE SEEN & HEARD.

As you can see from Scripture, Paul did NOT receive TRADITIONS handed down to him from any man concerning the gospel. He received direct revelation from the Lord Himself & from the prophetic OT Scriptures, given by God to the prophets.

The other APOSTLES all agreed with Paul concerning what He taught (the 12 APOSTLES' TEACHING was directly SEEING & HEARING FROM CHRIST--just as Paul had)--and they offered him the right hand of fellowship & Paul didn't learn from them or had anything added to what the Lord revealed to him concerning the gospel message of the faith once for all delivered to the saints. (Gal 2:1-10; Jude 1:3)

Heb 1:1,2 IN THE PAST God spoke to our ancestors THROUGH THE PROPHETS at many times & in various ways, BUT IN THESE LAST DAYS HE HAS SPOKEN TO US BY HIS SON, whom He appointed heir of all things & through whom also He made the universe.

3The Son is the radiance of God’s glory & the exact representation of His being (substance, nature), sustaining all things BY HIS POWERFUL WORD.

Here is another excerpt from brother John MacArthur, internationally well known Bible expositor & preacher.

Grace to You

I Thess 2:13; 2 Thess 2:15

"It is fair to point out that the Thessalonians were at a disadvantage compared to Christians today. They did not have all the written books of NT Scripture. Paul wrote both of his epistles very early in the NT era—about 51AD.

The two letters were probably written only a few months apart & are among the very earliest of all the NT writings.

The Thessalonians’ primary source of gospel truth was Paul’s teaching. As an apostle, Paul taught with absolute authority. When he taught them, his message was the Word of God & he commended them for recognizing that:

“For this reason we also constantly thank God that when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as THE WORD OF MEN, but for what it really is, the word of God, which also performs its work in you who believe” (I Thess 2:13).

Elsewhere he said that the commandments he gave them were “by the authority of the Lord Jesus.” (I Thess 4:2)

The substance of what he taught them represented the same body of truth that is available to us in the NT. How do we know? Paul himself said so.

Even as he was recording his inspired epistle to them, he reminded them, “Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?” (2 Thess 2:5)

The written Word simply confirmed & recorded for all time the authoritative truth he had ALREADY TAUGHT THEM IN PERSON. These epistles were a written reminder of what they had already heard from Paul’s own mouth. (I Thess 4:2)

2 Thess 2:15 confirms this: “Stand firm & hold to the traditions which you WERE taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.”

There he declares, first of all, that his epistles to them are authoritative, inspired truth. This verse is a clear statement that Paul himself regarded these epistles as inspired Scripture.

But notice also that this verse joins the apostolic “traditions” with the written Word of God. The “traditions” necessary for Christians to be discerning are recorded for all ages in the text of Scripture.

Those who claim that apostolic tradition is other truth in addition to Scripture often attempt to use this verse for support. Note, however, that Paul is not saying that “the traditions [they] were taught” are different from the written Scriptures.

Rather, he links the two, affirming that the written Word of God is the only permanent & authoritative record of the apostolic tradition. He is specifically suggesting that the Thessalonians should not trust “word of mouth” or letters pretending to be from apostolic sources.

Only what they had heard firsthand from Paul’s own lips or read in authentic letters from him were they to treat as authoritative, divine truth.

That is why Paul usually signed his epistles “with [his] own hand.” (I Cor 16:21; Gal 6:11; Col 4:18; 2 Thess 3:17; Philemon 1:19)

With this in mind, 2 Thess 2:15 cannot be used to support the claim that extrabiblical, spiritually binding “apostolic tradition” is passed down VERBALLY through popes & bishops.

Paul’s whole point was that the Thessalonians should treat as authoritative only what they had heard from his own mouth or received from his own pen. That body of truth—the Word of God—was to be the measuring stick they used to examine all things.

Two other verses confirm this. In 2 Thess 3:6 Paul writes, “Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from every brother who leads an unruly life & not according to the tradition which you received from us.”

And in verse 14 he adds, “If anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of that person & do not associate with him, so that he will be put to shame.”

Therefore, Paul is affirming that the Bible is the only reliable criterion by which believers in this age can evaluate messages claiming to be truth from God."
Exactly. :)
 
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It is interesting to note that the Jews had all their traditions which they put alongside their Scriptures, and Jesus showed His attitude to them by telling them, "The Word of God is made of no effect through your traditions: (Mark 7:13). I wonder if the Lord would have the same attitude toward church tradition now?
 
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GingerBeer

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He said that he did not learn his gospel from any of the Apostles, so he did not get it second hand.
I think he also indicated that he did hear from the apostles and from others too. The story of Paul's journey from Pharisee to Christian and on to apostle (not one of the twelve) is complicated.
 
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It is interesting to note that the Jews had all their traditions which they put alongside their Scriptures, and Jesus showed His attitude to them by telling them, "The Word of God is made of no effect through your traditions: (Mark 7:13).
What Jesus said is different from your summary. It was specific traditions that were an abrogation of the Law that Jesus condemned not every tradition of the Jews.
 
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BobRyan

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Mark 7 is not the only passage of Scripture, nor the only passage in which tradition is discussed.

Which is one reason why the OP does not just quote from Mark 7.

But Mark 7 is a good , simple, easy example of Christ's teaching where He contrasts tradition with scripture speaking to the magisterium of the one true nation church started by God at Sinai.

Very instructive for those willing to read about the teaching of Christ on this subject.
 
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BobRyan

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I think you dived into the detail and missed the greater message.

I of course agree with you on the interpretarion of eucharist verses. Therefore tradition hands down (for us) only what scripture says.

Those arguing the case of a symbolic only eucharist would swear blind that the the verses means other things , and therefore our tradtion "goes beyond scripture" and therefore breaches sola scriptura.

Which proves that the ideas that "tradition is OK, provided it does not go beyond scripture" is a subjective (and depends on a priori assumption on what scripture means)

Is Christ also placing that bit of "you're ok, I'm ok, we all have our own view of what tradition means" in Mark 7 in your POV?
 
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Mathetes66

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"I think he also indicated that he did hear from the apostles and from others too."

"I think' (what you speculate) vs what Paul actually said IN SCRIPTURE are two completely different things, which I ALREADY POSTED.

"It was specific traditions that were an abrogation of the Law that Jesus condemned not every tradition of the Jews."

You will need to show evidence in Scripture of this. When Jesus used this word 'traditions/tradition (Gk 'paradosis') it was in the negative not the positive. Jesus spoke the truth, the 'God-breathed out'--inspired--Word of God, not traditions.

Matt 5:21,22 You have HEARD that it was said TO THE ANCESTORS, ‘Do not murder & anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22BUT I TELL YOU...

AGAIN, anyone who says to his brother, ‘Raca,’ will be subject to THE SANHEDRIN. BUT anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be subject to the fire of hell.

Matt 5:23,24 THEREFORE, if you are offering your GIFT at the altar & there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there before the altar. FIRST GO & be reconciled to your brother; THEN come & offer your GIFT.

Mark 7:9-13 He said to them, “All too well you REJECT the commandment of God, so that you may KEEP YOUR TRADITION.

10For MOSES SAID, ‘Honor your father & your mother’ &, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’

11BUT YOU SAY, ‘IF A MAN SAYS to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban”—’ (that is, a GIFT to God),

12then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, making the word of God of no effect through your TRADITION WHICH YOU HAVE HANDED DOWN.

***AND MANY SUCH THINGS YOU DO.***

Mark 7:1-8 Then the Pharisees & some of the scribes came together to Him, having come from Jerusalem. Now when they saw some of His disciples eat bread with defiled, that is, with unwashed hands, THEY FOUND FAULT.

3FOR THE PHARISEES AND ALL THE JEWS DO NOT EAT UNLESS THEY WASH THEIR HANDS IN A SPECIAL CEREMONIAL WAY--HOLDING THE TRADITION OF THE ELDERS.

4When they come from the marketplace, they do not eat unless they wash.

***AND THERE ARE MANY OTHER TRADITIONS WHICH THEY HAVE RECEIVED & HOLD--***

like
the washing of cups, pitchers, copper vessels & couches (tables).

5Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him, “Why do Your disciples NOT WALK ACCORDING TO THE TRADITIONS OF THE ELDERS, but eat bread with unwashed hands?”

6He answered and said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:

‘This people honors Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. AND IN VAIN THEY WORSHIP ME--TEACHING AS DOCTRINES--the commandments of men.'

8For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men—the washing of pitchers & cups & ***MANY OTHER SUCH THINGS YOU DO."***

Matt 5:27,28 You have HEARD THAT IT WAS SAID, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ BUT I TELL YOU--that anyone who looks at a woman to lust after her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Matt 5:31,32 It has also BEEN SAID, ‘Whoever divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.’ BUT I TELL YOU--that anyone who divorces his wife, except for fornication, brings adultery upon her.i And he who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

Matt 5:33-37 AGAIN, you have HEARD THAT IT WAS SAID TO THE ANCESTORS, ‘Do not break your oath, but fulfill your vows to the Lord.’

34BUT I TELL YOU--not to swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35or by the earth, for it is His footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King.

36Nor should you swear by your head, for you cannot make a single hair white or black. Simply let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’
***ANYTHING MORE COMES FROM THE EVIL ONE.***

Matt 5:38-42 You have HEARD THAT IT WAS SAID, ‘Eye for eye & tooth for tooth.’ BUT I TELL YOU--not to resist an evil person. If someone slaps you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also;

40if someone wants to sue you & take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well & if someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two. Give to the one who asks you & do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

Luke 11:37-39 As Jesus was speaking, a Pharisee invited Him to dine with him; so He went in & reclined at the table. When the Pharisee saw it, he was amazed that He had not first ceremonially washed before the meal.

But the Lord said to him, "Now you Pharisees clean the outside of the cup & of the platter; but inside you are full of greed & wickedness.

I can go on but the point is this: Jesus didn't commend any of these multitudes of traditions of the elders/ancestors, these supposed 'oral' laws that they said were binding to pass on, keep & hold.

Jesus didn't deal with a minor one or two, He dealt with multitudes of them--MANY OF THEM.

And as the text shows, these weren't' minor or few but binding & many. And the text shows that the Pharisees & all the Jews DID THEM.

Jesus & the disciples were the few, the smallest minority, that did not observe them. To break one of these man-made traditions, held & passed on for centuries, binding on all Jews--was tantamount to defilement!

The handwashing ceremonial ritual/tradition of the elders/ancestors WAS NOT prescribed in Scripture but was an elaborate custom involving many steps, based on a supposed oral law.

https://blog.israelbiblicalstudies....esus-neglect-to-wash-his-hands-before-supper/

The Apostle Peter also shows the VANITY of worshiping God according to these traditions!

I Pet 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver & gold, from your vain (empty) conversation (way of life) RECEIVED BY TRADITION FROM YOUR FATHERS...

The danger Jesus taught is this: holding to these man-made traditions in Christianity, like the 'oral laws' of the Jews, will lead one to vain worship of God not based on the truth of Scripture.
 
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Yes it was, Mary is the Theotokos, because she gave birth to the One Theos and Logos.

2 Thessalonians 2:15 American Standard Version (ASV)
15 So then, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye were taught, whether by word, or by epistle of ours.
 
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