Socialized Medicine or Free Market -- poll

Best for the US

  • Socialized Medicine

    Votes: 20 62.5%
  • Free Market

    Votes: 12 37.5%

  • Total voters
    32

Mountainmanbob

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Not sure where you are but the homeless can get free health care here in Ky. At least in most parts. https://obamacarefacts.com/insurance-exchange/kentucky-health-insurance-exchange/

Way before ObamaMamaCare and at least for the last 50 years that I remember the homeless and others with no medical insurance could and do receive medical care for free in California. I used it often when I was younger.

I don't buy into all of this Fake News talk about the many who will be dieing with the proposed Trump Plan. If Trump gave every US citizen a 10 pound gold bar the Fake News stations would say that it never happened -- as they bought new cars and homes.

Mountainmanbob
 
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RDKirk

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You don't think how well single-payer works in other countries could have anything to do with how well it would work here? Especially since we can adopt parts of other countries' systems in ours, if we wished to.

We have. It's called Medicare and Medicaid.
 
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pakicetus

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I don't buy into all of this Fake News talk about the many who will be dieing with the proposed Trump Plan.
If Trumpcare passes in anything like its current form, tens of millions of people will be thrown off of health insurance. Before you call that "Fake News," it's not from some liberal source: it's according to the Congressional Budget Office, which is headed by a conservative Republican, and the White House, which is run by the Trump administration. Of course some people will die because they don't have health insurance. How could that possibly not be true?
 
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Yarddog

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Way before ObamaMamaCare and at least for the last 50 years that I remember the homeless and others with no medical insurance could and do receive medical care for free in California. I used it often when I was younger.
The extreme poor have been able to get free care at clinics and ER's but there has also been that group in the lower middle class or upper poor that couldn't and health insurance was too expensive. We fit into that category growing up. Our doctor was my Dad. I can't count the broken bones and countless other injuries that were never seen by a doctor because he couldn't afford it.

My first health insurance came from the railroad and my first dentist visit came when I was 28.
I don't buy into all of this Fake News talk about the many who will be dieing with the proposed Trump Plan.
Just as I never bought the fake death panel accusations from conservatives about Obama care.

God bless
 
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miamited

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Way before ObamaMamaCare and at least for the last 50 years that I remember the homeless and others with no medical insurance could and do receive medical care for free in California. I used it often when I was younger.

I don't buy into all of this Fake News talk about the many who will be dieing with the proposed Trump Plan. If Trump gave every US citizen a 10 pound gold bar the Fake News stations would say that it never happened -- as they bought new cars and homes.

Mountainmanbob

Hi MM,

I can't speak for California, but I served for several years in ministry to the homeless in Miami Fl. Anyone who would think that the homeless and destitute were receiving good quality free medical care would have to be using some hallucinogenic drug. Sure, if a homeless person cut their arm off or was in danger of bleeding out they could go to the ER and get stitches. Yes, they could call for appointments or just walk into a free medical center, but the care they generally received was something most of us wouldn't give our beloved pets.

I have personally sat in the bus stop type waiting rooms that they endure. I have listened to the staff tell those with diseases and illnesses that the wait for some specialist to see them could be weeks or months. So, yes, they receive free medical care, but most average Americans wouldn't be satisfied with it and they shouldn't have to be either.

I'm glad that things work so well in California and you know what, part of the reason that it might work so well in California is because California is a fairly liberal state that does allow for slightly better resources for their poor and suffering than many other states. California has a number of the 'sanctuary' cities that President Trump would do away with. California has a lot of the 'bleeding heart liberals' that you seem to want to put out of the operation of the government. So, while things that you have seen regarding medical care might have worked well in California, they probably won't work nearly as well if President Trump gets his way.

You've mentioned before about being a millionaire and having several millionaires in your family. I'm happy for you and your family, but unfortunately for most who move into that category, they often lose their sense of obligation for others because it now becomes a matter of holding on to what they've got. Jesus said that it is harder for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven than for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle. There was a very good reason that he told us that truth. Money tends to blind us to the needs of others. We become greedy and self-serving because we begin to love our money more than loving the teachings of our Lord.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted
 
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Mountainmanbob

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[QUOTE="miamited, post: 71234303, member: 270136"! ]

Hi MM,

You've mentioned before about being a millionaire and having several millionaires in your family. I'm happy for you and your family, but unfortunately for most who move into that category, they often lose their sense of obligation for others because it now becomes a matter of holding on to what they've got.

[/QUOTE]

Hi Ted
No I'm not a rich man but, true for some reason there are a few very wealthy ones in my immediate family. My richest brother tithes beyond what most can only imagine and I think that it shows in his many blessings received.

Many Blessings sent
Bob
 
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miamited

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Hi again MM,

Another account found in the Scriptures that would certainly apply in this matter is Jesus' commendation of the poor widow woman who only put two small coins in the offering. But, Jesus seemed to make it clear to his disciples that he didn't look at the amount that each one put in, but the heart and love and desire of the heart that gave any offering. He commended that poor widow woman for her paltry offering that any millionaire would likely just laugh at and say, 'Oh look, I can give a thousand times that amount. Her offering is of no consequence." Jesus, on the other hand, commended her offering because she gave much in comparison to how very little she had to give. He even went on to rebuke those who give some comparatively larger amount, but from a much larger purse.

Jesus sat down opposite the place where the offerings were put and watched the crowd putting their money into the temple treasury. Many rich people threw in large amounts. But a poor widow came and put in two very small copper coins, worth only a few cents. Calling his disciples to him, Jesus said, “Truly I tell you, this poor widow has put more into the treasury than all the others. They all gave out of their wealth; but she, out of her poverty, put in everything—all she had to live on.”

Are you willing to give all that you have to live on for the work of God? I believe that God calls us, individually, and as a government that claims to be 'of God', to use much of our largess to provide for those who can't provide for themselves. This is what the social programs of our government do. They establish a large pool of funds from everyone who has the ability to give so that those who don't, may receive. I think it's a sad day when Christians fall in line with those who are being greedy and stingy about how our money is spent when it comes to social programs that are designed to lift up those without. Sure, there are instances of abuse and those will be. Those who abuse the good work of our government will get their righteous judgment. Don't worry. God's going to settle all accounts fairly and in righteousness. Those who cheat you will be judged for their cheating. Those who steal from you will be judged for their stealing.

But here on the earth, those of the world are so concerned that they need to be the one's to judge these people now. Today! Leave room for God's judgment. God loves a cheerful giver. God loves those who love others as themselves. You want good medical care and you should want the same thing for everyone else. If it costs you an extra couple of hundred dollars a year to provide that for others -- don't worry, God sees your righteousness. If your giving and suffering for others is with a pure heart for God -- you'll get your righteous reward. God is not slack in keeping any of His promises.

Now me, I don't use medical care much. I'm 62 years old and the last time I went to a doctor was probably 5 years ago. Before that it was probably several years. I haven't had a general physical check up in over 10 years. The visits I mentioned above were for specific injuries or issues. I had a short bout with cellulitis 4-5 years ago. Prior to that I had two visits for stitches needed for injuries. God has been very, very good to me in providing me with good health, but I don't begrudge paying taxes that others might have the care that they desire. I don't begrudge paying higher insurance premiums, and yes I do, so that others might be covered. Personally, I'd much rather see more of our tax dollars spent on providing medical care and social benefits than the trillions of dollars we spend to flex our military muscle. I would have been perfectly happy if the extra billions of dollars that were given to the military had been given over to social programs.

I imagine that in your book that labels me a left-wing liberal and that's ok. For me it's not about any label except the one that says - 'born again child of the one true and living God.'

God bless you,
In Christ, ted
 
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miamited

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Hi MM,

My apologies. Yes, I looked up your previous post and you did say that you had three millionaires in your immediate family. I guess I recollected that post incorrectly to say that you were one of them. However, the rest of my post does still stand. My encouragement to all is that as Christians, I'm not speaking to those of the world but only to those who hold themselves up as born again believers in the one true and living God, that God calls us to have compassion for those of the least of us. God calls us to want for them, and I'm speaking here of the people of all nations, the same as we would want for ourselves.

I most certainly don't begrudge the small additional amount that I personally have to pay in taxes that might go for the welfare of those who are the least among us. I'm proud to say that I am living under a government that also feels that way about its people for the most part. That I live under a government that provides food programs and financial programs and medical programs for those who are less fortunate than I am. I honestly feel that a government for the people should be just such a government. It can't just be a government for the 'wealthy' people; a government for the 'rich and famous' people if it is to be a government for the people.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted
 
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jgarden

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God created the free market system. It's beauty is found in its simplicity and fairness. Two parties engage in a free exchange. Both get what they desire, as they trade what they want less for what they want more.

People have become very confused about what rights are. They often speak of commodities as "rights"; however, we know that nothing that can be purchased is a right.

A right must be exercised through your own initiative and action. It is not a claim on others. A right is not actualized and implemented by the actions of others. This means you do not have the right to the time in another person’s life. You do not have a right to other people’s money. You do not have the right to another person’s property. WHAT IS A RIGHT?
THE GREATEST COMMANDMENT (Matthew 22:36-40)

36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.

38 This is the first and greatest commandment.

39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.

40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.
*******************************************************************************
Perhaps, as a Christian, "jimmyjimmy" would care to enlighten us to why he doesn't believe in the Greatest Commandment!
 
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Ringo84

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Seems most these days in the US want some type of Socialized Medicine. I think that our forefathers would roll over in their graves if they could see the direction in which we are heading.

There is this big call today that everyone should have health care of some type and for the ones who can't afford it, it should be provided for free.

I have worked with the homeless for decades and before ObamaMamaCare these ones always received treatment for free when needed.

M-Bob

Let me tell you (a somewhat edited) version of my story.

I was born with a congenital condition that was not my fault and beyond my control. At a young age, I had a series of surgeries to correct that condition. Today, you probably wouldn't know that I had ever experienced those difficulties unless I told you.

Because I had a pre-existing condition, I could not afford health insurance prior to passage of the ACA. I was a poor-as-dirt college student that didn't have the money to shell out the exorbitant fees the health care companies were asking so that I could have crap coverage. Around 2011 or so, I was finally insured after a long gap in coverage and was able to see my doctor to treat another medical condition (not connected to my pre-existing condition).

Two years after I was born, my sister came around. Because she had Down syndrome and congenital heart issues, she was uninsurable. No company trying to protect its bottom line would come near her. It was only after my dad got a job with great group coverage that she was insured, and he soon lost that after we moved to another city.

So you rail against so-called "Obamamamacare" and complain about so-called "Socialized medicine", and I have absolutely no sympathy. For-profit health care is a failure, because it pits the sick (people like me and my sister) against shareholders and prices the sick (who need health care the most) out of the market.

I don't think the ACA goes far enough. We should have single-payer in this country so that people like me, my sister, and my dad don't have to go into medical bankruptcy paying for coverage. Everyone in this country is entitled to live, and to have coverage that keeps them healthy.
Ringo
 
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jimmyjimmy

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Let me tell you (a somewhat edited) version of my story.

I was born with a congenital condition that was not my fault and beyond my control. At a young age, I had a series of surgeries to correct that condition. Today, you probably wouldn't know that I had ever experienced those difficulties unless I told you.

Because I had a pre-existing condition, I could not afford health insurance prior to passage of the ACA. I was a poor-as-dirt college student that didn't have the money to shell out the exorbitant fees the health care companies were asking so that I could have crap coverage. Around 2011 or so, I was finally insured after a long gap in coverage and was able to see my doctor to treat another medical condition (not connected to my pre-existing condition).

Two years after I was born, my sister came around. Because she had Down syndrome and congenital heart issues, she was uninsurable. No company trying to protect its bottom line would come near her. It was only after my dad got a job with great group coverage that she was insured, and he soon lost that after we moved to another city.

So you rail against so-called "Obamamamacare" and complain about so-called "Socialized medicine", and I have absolutely no sympathy. For-profit health care is a failure, because it pits the sick (people like me and my sister) against shareholders and prices the sick (who need health care the most) out of the market.

I don't think the ACA goes far enough. We should have single-payer in this country so that people like me, my sister, and my dad don't have to go into medical bankruptcy paying for coverage. Everyone in this country is entitled to live, and to have coverage that keeps them healthy.
Ringo

Insurance doesn't pit anyone against anything. Insurance works very well, and has for decades. If you prefer not having it, or don't like it, you don't have to have it. It's not, at least it wasn't, mandatory.

I have had many difficulties and hardships in my life - too many to list here, but I never once thought that someone else should have to pay for them, other than myself.
 
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Ringo84

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Insurance doesn't pit anyone against anything. Insurance works very well, and has for decades. If you prefer not having it, or don't like it, you don't have to have it. It's not, at least it wasn't, mandatory.

I have had many difficulties and hardships in my life - too many to list here, but I never once thought that someone else should have to pay for them, other than myself.

I don't think anyone should pay for my health care. I think I should be able to pay for my own health care! What is so hard to understand about that?

If you think "insurance works well", then you probably have never had to navigate the insurance system. Thank your lucky stars, because I have. I'm luckier than most, because I don't have a terminal condition. But for-profit insurance has nothing to offer people like that except for high premiums and coverage that doesn't cover anything.

Maybe we should think about someone other than ourselves.
Ringo
 
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jimmyjimmy

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I don't think anyone should pay for my health care. I think I should be able to pay for my own health care! What is so hard to understand about that?

If you think "insurance works well", then you probably have never had to navigate the insurance system. Thank your lucky stars, because I have. I'm luckier than most, because I don't have a terminal condition. But for-profit insurance has nothing to offer people like that except for high premiums and coverage that doesn't cover anything.

Maybe we should think about someone other than ourselves.
Ringo

I've had 4 major, and a couple of minor, surgeries, and countless procedures. I've spent more hours in doctor's offices than you've been alive. That still entitles me to nothing from you or anyone else.

You don't want to pay for your own heath insurance. You've already admitted to that. You want to pay what you want to pay. It's like walking into a car dealer and demanding they sell you a $30,000 car for $10,000 because you don't want to/can't pay $30,000.

For profit heath insurance is the only kind of insurance that can ever be. Doctors must earn a living and hospitals must pay overhead. You work for profit, and so does Bill Gates. We all do.

In cases where people have problems that are larger than they can truly handle on their own, there are many government-based and charitable systems for them, and there are some who fall between the cracks like there are some who fall between the cracks of marriage because they are unattractive. Life isn't "fair", and no one can make it "fair".

Countless people have countless hardships. That's the way it is. We don't all have equal opportunity in any area of life, but that doesn't mean there is any obligation on other citizens to have their money taken to pay for our difficulties.
 
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Ringo84

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You don't want to pay for your own heath insurance. You've already admitted to that. You want to pay what you want to pay. It's like walking into a car dealer and demanding they sell you a $30,000 car for $10,000 because you don't want to/can't pay $30,000.

Why are you lying? I never said that. Is it so hard to argue the merits of what I actually said that you have to make stuff up?

For profit heath insurance is the only kind of insurance that can ever be. Doctors must earn a living and hospitals must pay overhead. You work for profit, and so does Bill Gates. We all do.

It's fine for doctors to making a living and hospitals to pay overhead, but it doesn't have to be on the backs of the sick.

In cases where people have problems that are larger than they can truly handle on their own, there are many government-based and charitable systems for them, and there are some who fall between the cracks like there are some who fall between the cracks of marriage because they are unattractive. Life isn't "fair", and no one can make it "fair".

That's such a weaselly cop-out. I don't expect life to ever be completely fair, but I do ask that it be fairer to those who need coverage the most. When people are paying out of the nose for crap care, and going into medical bankruptcy to pay for necessary procedures, something's wrong. And that's not something that private charity or emergency rooms is going to be able to magically fix.

. We don't all have equal opportunity in any area of life, but that doesn't mean there is any obligation on other citizens to have their money taken to pay for our difficulties.

Do you understand how insurance works? Groups of people enter into a health care plan together. The more people there are, the lower the costs because risk is spread around. So if I'm someone who is risky because of certain conditions, my bills will be lower because I'm grouped together with healthier people who are less risky to cover.

You say you've have a lot of surgeries and procedures, and I don't doubt that. What I doubt is whether you've actually experienced what it's like for someone with a pre-existing condition. Generally speaking, sick people who have navigated the insurance system aren't those who condescend to others about "others paying for your health insurance".

Again, it helps when we think of others and not just ourselves.
Ringo
 
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squirrel123

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I was born with a congenital condition
...
Two years after I was born, my sister came around. Because she had Down syndrome and congenital heart issues

I'm going to wait to get homeowner's insurance until *after* my house house burns down. Think of the money I'll save!
Yes, shame on Ringo and his sister. So irresponsible of them not to get health insurance before they were born...:sigh:
 
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jimmyjimmy

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Why are you lying? I never said that. Is it so hard to argue the merits of what I actually said that you have to make stuff up?

"I was a poor-as-dirt college student that didn't have the money to shell out the exorbitant fees the health care companies were asking so that I could have crap coverage."

You could have had it, but you didn't want to pay for it.

People find money for what they value. You could have chosen to work 3 jobs to pay for health insurance or self-insure, but you didn't. You went to college instead. You chose what was more important to you. I've met many people who "can't afford" heating oil, but they live in houses that have no mortgage, go on vacations. . . People find money for what they want to find money for.

It's fine for doctors to making a living and hospitals to pay overhead, but it doesn't have to be on the backs of the sick.

:) This has to be the funniest and oddest statement in the thread. Of course doctors make a living from sick people! Car mechanics make a living from people with "sick" cars. Grocery stores make a living "on the backs of" hungry people. . .

The indoctrination against work, money and profit being evil is so widespread and accepted, we don't even realize how silly we sound when condemning what God has called good: work.

Do you understand how insurance works? Groups of people enter into a health care plan together. The more people there are, the lower the costs because risk is spread around. So if I'm someone who is risky because of certain conditions, my bills will be lower because I'm grouped together with healthier people who are less risky to cover.

I remember the very high price I paid for auto insurance when I was 16. The rate barely went down until I was 25! The reason I paid more was that I was in a pool of people with similar risk factors. They din't group high-risk drivers with low-rosh drivers in order to make the cost artificial lower for the high-risk driver (me) even though I would have loved it if they did, I understand how fundamentally unjust it would have been if they had.

The unjustly lower rate you seek is literally demanding that I pay a higher rate so that you can pay a lower rate, only you want the government to take the money from my wallet for you.

You say you've have a lot of surgeries and procedures, and I don't doubt that. What I doubt is whether you've actually experienced what it's like for someone with a pre-existing condition. Generally speaking, sick people who have navigated the insurance system aren't those who condescend to others about "others paying for your health insurance".

I've been denied insurance. I've had riders on policies because of preexisting conditions, but I'm still a man. I'm responsible for myself. I'm not a burden for my neighbor while I can still do some type of work.

Charity is fine. In fact I give much money to the truly poor, which means I give a lot outside of the US, where truly poor people can be found; however income redistribution is not the same thing as charitable giving. One is voluntary, and it is directed at the truly helpless, while the other forcibly takes from one person to give to another, which is nothing less than theft.
 
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Ringo84

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In other words: it's my fault I was born with a pre-existing condition. If I had only just killed myself working three jobs instead of advancing my education and improving my job prospects, maybe I wouldn't whine so much.

This is the problem with the debate over health care in this country. Those on one side relate their personal experiences, hoping that others will understand where they're coming from and empathize with them. The other side blames the sick for having the gall to be sick, and then congratulate themselves for being good men and women of Christ.
Ringo
 
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jimmyjimmy

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In other words: it's my fault I was born with a pre-existing condition. If I had only just killed myself working three jobs instead of advancing my education and improving my job prospects, maybe I wouldn't whine so much.

I'll just let that hardhearted, mush-brained nonsense speak for itself. People who call themselves men and women of Christ believe these things.
Ringo

Is it my fault that my father was a drunk? Is it the ugly girls fault she can't get married?

I couldn't attend college because I had to work in order to eat. Is that "fair"? Maybe not, but I worked hard enough that I did get a degree, when I was 40, working 6 days a week, at the time, BTW.

Life is tough. It's called reality. If you keep expecting others to pay your bills you will never be successful in life. You will simply try dismissing people like me with name-calling and the worst insult you could think of by inferring I'm not a even a Christian, but I've experienced much pain, loss and suffering from childhood, yet still survived, and as a Christian.
 
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