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Socialized medicine is a failure everywhere it's been tried

Discussion in 'The Junk Drawer' started by Mountainmanbob, Mar 20, 2019.

  1. Mountainmanbob

    Mountainmanbob Goat Whisperer Supporter

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  2. Go Braves

    Go Braves On semi-hiatus here. Y'all take care.

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    What's Cruz's solution? It's easy to cherry pick some articles, throw them up on a site. A lot harder to fix problems.

    My grandma was just telling me about a Fox News story about folks from Georgia traveling all the way down to Mexico for dental & health care on account of how they just cannot afford it right here. This is including veterans who served their country. I bet there's even more folks in the state of Texas who are a part of that caravan of Americans who have to cross into Mexico for their medical & dental needs.
     
  3. nonaeroterraqueous

    nonaeroterraqueous Nonexistent Member

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    That, right there, is the story of my childhood. We always made a trip to Tijuana for dentistry, where we could pay cash, because we couldn't afford it here, in the States. The prime culprit, I suspect, is the insurance industry. Whenever you have that extra administrative layer, a third party payer, you always get increased costs. The real joke of it is that some people seem to think that the solution is government-run healthcare. Yeah, so you have a problem caused by big insurance companies, and you think you can solve it by consolidating them into one colossal insurance company (the government)? That's exactly the wrong answer. Mexico is not a cheaper solution because of socialism. They don't even have socialism.
     
  4. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Ship of Fools Supporter

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    That's untrue propaganda. Lots of countries manage to provide affordable or free healthcare to their citizens and retain extremely competitive economies as a result.
     
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  5. Go Braves

    Go Braves On semi-hiatus here. Y'all take care.

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    Really? Did they do a nice job at least in Tijuana? Did you / do you live near the border? I'm not that surprised that folks who live in California would go to Mexico. I was pretty surprised that retirees from Georgia go there but according to Fox News / my grandma it's a fraction of the cost. Some folks feel like they've got no other options.

    I didn't think Mexico was cheaper on account of socialism, my point is that folks in the US are so desperate on account of the high costs of medical / dental care they go to Mexico for it. I'm wondering what Cruz's plan to fix the US healthcare system is.
     
  6. Quid est Veritas?

    Quid est Veritas? In Memoriam to CS Lewis

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    In the long run they aren't sustainable though. Medical costs worldwide are going up, and populations are aging, thus driving up costs of Geriatric medicine further. The natural population increase that would have shouldered this increase historically has plateaued or become negative, so the productivity of the young is not as able to subsidise the old. This is why many such countries are looking toward Euthanasia, I'd bet, at least part of the reason many are pushing for it.

    Look, non-socialised medicine is also not affordable. Not to be a doom prophet, but no current medical system on earth is sustainable in the long run - either through increased costs, aging populations, lack of competitiveness, or failing or decreased antibiotic or drug development. Medically, everything looks bleak and looking for a workable model elsewhere is merely looking for another way to stack the deckchairs while the Titanic sinks.
     
  7. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Ship of Fools Supporter

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    Fair enough, but at least there is an attempt to spread limited resources equitably.
     
  8. nonaeroterraqueous

    nonaeroterraqueous Nonexistent Member

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    Yeah, I had one wisdom tooth extracted in the U.S. for over a thousand dollars, and the other was extracted in Mexico for around sixty dollars. The dentist in Mexico clearly was the better of the two. She did an expert job, absolutely painless, and very quick.

    I like Cruz, but I'm not convinced that he has workable solutions to a lot of these kinds of problems.
     
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  9. JackRT

    JackRT Flat earther waking up ... Supporter

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    A few years ago in a major speech the president of the New England Academy of Medicine commented that the quality and quantity of health care in Canada was on a par with the USA. He went on to point out that on a per capita basis Canadian medicare cost 40% less than in the USA and at that time about 40% of USAnians could not afford private medical insurance. He also added that a good portion of that 40% were a month away from financial ruin in the event of a medical crisis coupled with loss of income. No Canadian is in that situation.

    When Saskatchewan introduced universal medicare some 50 years ago I remember the howls of protest and predictions of doom and gloom. About 5 years later all of Canada had universal medicare. In my entire adult life I have never paid a cent for health care . Prescription and dental costs are insured privately. Since turning 65 my prescriptions are paid as well. Over the years I have had seven operations and four hospital stays, two of them extended and numerous diagnostic procedures. Just three months ago I recieved a pacemaker.

    Several years ago a major TV network in Canada ran a major series and vote to determine Canada's greatest hero. Hundreds of nominations were recieved and then whittled down to ten or twelve. They then prepared an hour long documentary on the life and achievements of each one of them. Canadians voted overwhelmingly for Tommy Douglas, the firey little Baptist preacher turned socialist politician, who is regarded as the 'Father of Medicare' in Canada. It is my sincere hope that the USA will some day have a universal medicare system comparable to what we enjoy in Canada.

    A few years ago a friend was vacationing in Florida. He likes to bicycle but he took a bad fall and had his wife drive him to a hospital ER. He was there a couple of hours and recieved prompt and professional care. They gave him an x-ray, a tetanus shot, a half dozen stitches and cleaned up his road rash. The bill was $1800.00 !!! They returned to Canada and he went in to his own doctor to have the stitches removed. The doctor commented that if an American recieved the identical treatment in a Canadian hospital ER he would have been charged about $200.00

    Comparative outcomes -------- Canada / US :


    per capita medical spending --- $4500 / $8500

    percent of GDP ---------------------11.2 / 17.7

    public share –---------------------- 70% / 48%,

    doctors per 1000 -------------------- 2.4 / 2.5

    nurses per 1000 ----------------------9.3 / 11.1

    life expectancy ----------------------- 81 / 79

    smoking rate --------------------- 15.7% / 14.8%

    obesity rate -----------------------25.4% / 36.5%.

    As you can readily see, Canada achieves comparable or superior outcomes at close to half the expense and every citizen regardless of status or income has equal access.

    Ted Cruz's "Fact Sheet" is bollocks.
     
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  10. Yarddog

    Yarddog Senior Contributor Supporter

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    I think to look at the comparison is to examine Socialized medicine in the US to Non-Socialized medicine. The VA is an example of Socialized medicine in the US and it compares pretty equally to Non-VA hospitals. The death rate is slightly lower in VA hospitals but not enough to tout it as being better. Some will point to the horror stories made public in a few VA hospitals but not mention the horror stories in Non-VA hospitals.

    How many military veterans would toss away their care in VA facilities? How many elderly would toss aside their Medicare? How many with HMO's would toss that aside, though this isn't a government socialized medicine it is still a form of socialized medicine.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2019
  11. bekkilyn

    bekkilyn Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Last edited: Mar 21, 2019
  12. thecolorsblend

    thecolorsblend If God is your Father, who is your Mother?

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    Finland is interesting because that's what the left in America envisions when they say "socialism".

    When the American right hears the left say "socialism", what they envision is Venezuela.

    I'm not necessarily opposed to socialism.

    There's no ending for this post so I'll just say "big juicy steak".
     
  13. Bob Crowley

    Bob Crowley Well-Known Member Supporter

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    We have Medicare in Australia, which is a form of socialised medicine, and generally speaking it works pretty well. The doctors I go to "bulk bill" which implies they charge no more than the refund they get from the Medicare system, so I pay nothing. And they do all right too - they're hardly on poor street.

    Way back in 1985, I had a mild case of the bends from scuba diving. To cut a long story short, they flew me at low altitude down to Sydney and stuck me in a naval decompression chamber at HMAS Penguin for about 6 hours, and I had to stay in the naval hospital for about 3 days under observation. Then back home under my own steam.

    A year later I travelled back to Sydney to see a naval doctor as a follow up along with an ECT scan and a specialist appointment, which was all clear. End of story, except for the bill which came to ..... nothing! Except perhaps for the specialist appointment, but I forget if I paid for that or not.

    For which I was very grateful. Incidentally I've had to give up diving as I went deaf 3 times from it. Each time my hearing came back over about a week (I'm hard of hearing anyway). When I saw the navy doctor he said "I think one day you'll go deaf, and it may not come back!" I had to give it away, so I'm not likely to get the bends again...

    I wonder what the same treatment would have cost me in the USA?

    I'm somewhat cynical when I hear some Americans almost throw up when they hear the word "socialism" as though it's all bad. We're supposed to be a community and help each other, and that is what socialised medicine does, provided it is efficient and waste is minimalised.

    There's a list here of countries with "universal healthcare" and guess what? The USA is included!

    List of countries with universal healthcare - Wikipedia
     
  14. thecolorsblend

    thecolorsblend If God is your Father, who is your Mother?

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    A lot.

    I agree in principle. In practice though, it's kind of impossible to offer socialized medicine while maintaining the open border policies which the Democrats favor. Welcoming in utter outsiders who haven't paid into the system and are infected with who knows what will break the system, eventually. There are other complications to that as well though.

    If we had absolutely controlled borders, I would actually support socialized medicine. My opposition to it comes primarily from not wanting a broken system because it's offered to the entire world but funded only by taxpayers.

    To be fair, our "socialized" system isn't really comparable to yours.
     
  15. bekkilyn

    bekkilyn Well-Known Member Supporter

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  16. bekkilyn

    bekkilyn Well-Known Member Supporter

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    We could put up all the walls in the world and we are not going to have absolutely controlled borders. Absolutely controlled borders is a pipe dream. Most illegals are flying in legally anyway and then just overstaying past their visas, so controlling a border isn't going do much of anything.

    So with that said, I wonder if maybe instead of focusing on controlling borders, it would be a better strategy to include more illegals as taxpayers. Rather than sending them away, maybe renew their visas provided they continue paying taxes, or something of that nature. Rather than viewing them as a problem, we could instead view them as an opportunity. Thus, they would also be paying for healthcare along with everyone else. Obviously, no strategy will be perfect, but I think we have mostly been looking at a lot of things in all the wrong ways when we could be using it to our advantage to where it is more win-win for everyone.
     
  17. High Fidelity

    High Fidelity Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Compare the life expectancy of countries that have it with the U.S. :)
     
  18. thecolorsblend

    thecolorsblend If God is your Father, who is your Mother?

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    If there's a loaded gun on the other side of the violation, methinks the overstayers will straighten up very quickly.

    Where there's a will there's a way, right?
     
  19. bekkilyn

    bekkilyn Well-Known Member Supporter

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    A loaded gun isn't going to increase tax revenue though.
     
  20. usexpat97

    usexpat97 kewlness

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    You mean the socialized health plan I am on now is a failure? I had no idea. I had better just walk straight into the clinic and tell my doctor about this. He might get tired of talking to me, though, since just last week I called him while he was out in Italy, and he wired in my prescription from over the phone.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2019
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