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Featured So why Seven Heads

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Just The Facts, Feb 19, 2019.

  1. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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  2. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Nothing you have above fits.

    The ten kings don't have a kingdom but for one hour.

    Revelation 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

    13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

    The ten kings give their "kingdom" to the beast in Revelation 17:17.

    17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled
     
  3. tranquil

    tranquil Newbie

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    1st, let's agree that the whore is not the beast? The whore / Vatican / Pope is the cheerleader for Christians to join the beast and go into the great tribulation. The Pope is the false prophet of the 6th & 7th king, but not for the little horn of Daniel 7, 8th king, the 'son of perdition' (which is often in propaganda played out literally as the 6th king's son. EG, Trump = Death/ Kushner = son of perdition; Prince Charles = Death/ Prince William = son of perdition/ Darth Vader & Luke (Lucifer) & Emperor (Pope). (the son says to worship an image of the father). The Pope is a scapegoat in service to the 8th king/ Dan 7 little horn's legitimacy.

    2nd, the 4th beast of Daniel 7 is very problematic to say what it is. Satan plays that close to the chest. But it is either the United Nations (the UN flag is oriented from the Northern perspective = King of the North) or it is a global corporation (let's say Micro-Amazo-Goog-Face-Mart Corp) (my guess is this is the Freemasonic Illuminati 'king of the south'/ ie pyramid of "Egypt". (in the US, Democrats would be herded into the UN camp [no pun intended] & Republicans would be herded into the Freemasonic Illuminati camp & the Micro-Amazo-Goog-Face-Mart Corp.)

    If I had to guess, it would be something like this:

    - 6th king would be the Great Monarch, head of the UN or EU army, installed by the Pope. (for example, Prince Charles, who would take over the leopard, lion, & bear)
    - 7th king, the most anti-UN, pro-Illuminati global corp leader around. (I imagine something like this from Atlas Shrugged



    - 8th king, the 'son of perdition' kills the Pope, who is the scapegoat for causing of all the world's problems, of which by this time, will be numerous. The Illuminati Satan global corp will install the son of perdition (Prince William, eg) who will pretend to care about workers.

    I'm still in the research phase of this Great Monarch, but it tracks pretty well with current events. Catholic prophecy says that France will become so overcome by civil strife that they will turn to the Pope to mediate the situation, who will then forcibly install the 6th king, the Great Monarch, to solve the problem.
     
  4. Just The Facts

    Just The Facts Senior Veteran

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    Hello Dadad

    Well that is not what I have read there are 4 candidates Nigeria is not one that I have ever heard of. The Problem is all five permanent members and 2/3 of the General assembly have to agree. These four candidates are called the G4. Many Europeans never want Germany in that position especially Italy, Bulgaria, Denmark, Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Spain, and the Czech Republic, Now the Coffee Club formally Known as Unity for Consensus UFC or something like that oppose this expansion of the SC. This Group includes Italy, Canada, Mexico Egypt and 46 other countries.

    When you look deeper you see that China Opposes Japan and each region has neighbor countries that reject their neighbors bid most of South America does not want Brazil for example.

    What were are seeing more and more is Continental groups forming and wanting a permanent seat. IE Africa, Asia, South America, Mexico and Central America, And the Locked out Western powers who are the core of the Unity for Consensus. IE Canada and the rest of Europe except Germany and France. Which Ironically makes for five more permanent members. This scenario has broader support from the General Assembly.

    To be honest Dadad I do not see the UN as the terrible Beast or UK / America as one of the seven heads. I am interested who do you see as the Whore of Rv17 because it rides the seven heads ie controls them so who do you see as the Whore.
     
  5. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    You are mistaken: the "woman" in Rev. 12 is ISRAEL, from where Jesus, the SON, came. This first 5 verses are about how the Dragon tried to kill Jesus as a young child.
     
  6. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    The whore is not the beast, agreed.
     
  7. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    As near as I can tell from your post, extracting bits and pieces,
    You believe...

    - 6th king would be head of the UN or EU army.
    - 7th king, would be the most anti-UN, pro-Illuminati global corp leader around, Prince William.
    - 8th king, the beast, would be Prince William, the little horn

    Your appear to have Prince William eventually killing the Pope for appointing the head of the UN or EU army.

    Apparently, you have the ten kings as being the Illuminati global corp.
    ____________________________________________________________________________
    Is there anything I got wrong regarding my understanding of your view?
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2019
  8. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    I think that near the end of the week, as shown at the 6th vial, these ten major nations all send their military to join with the Beast in wiping Israel off the map. Does this "ten" really mean 10, or perhaps fullness? There were ten toes on the image.

    It is interesting, the Jewish boy Nathan who died, went to heaven and saw the end of this age play out and then came back to his body, said that 72 nations came against Israel, and in two or three days their IDF was wiped out. Then, just when their cause seemed completely hopeless, Messiah came.

    I think "one hour" just represents a short amount of time considering it is a war. This war (Armageddon) will not last long once Jesus arrives!
     
  9. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    Amazing: Agreement! The whore is the city of Jerusalem. In God's plan the world was suppose to learn of the goodness and greatness of God from Jerusalem - but instead, the world is deceived by the Beast and False Prophet from Jerusalem.
     
  10. Alex Tennent

    Alex Tennent For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

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    Sorry but that version does not fit the scriptures at all. Mary did not flee into the wilderness for 3 1/2 years after Jesus was born. And Jesus did not live on earth during the seventh Beast word government but the sixth, Rome. In Revelation 12 all seven heads of this beast are crowned, showing that it occurs when the seventh and final world beast system is in place. Also the 10 horns show this, they did not live when Jesus lived, and they rule with the antichrist. See also Daniel 7:7, 8, 20, 24 for the ten horns (who are ten financial kings without a delineated kingdom, Rev 17:12). The antichrist comes up in the midst of them, and his look is more stout (Daniel 7:20).
     
  11. Just The Facts

    Just The Facts Senior Veteran

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    Hello Alex

    Your above post is interesting, I disagree on Rev 12 being Future I believe rev 12 is the only Historical part of Revelation

    [15] The serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, to sweep her away with the flood.

    This gives us a direct tie into Daniel 9: and the Destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD

    [26] And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off, and shall have nothing; and the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war; desolations are decreed.

    Saying this Dragon is a Kingdom is not in line with the plain words of God.

    [9] And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world -- he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

    The Dragon is Satan not a Kingdom. The Crowns and Heads Just show he is the true prince/king of all these world Governments. As Jesus said the prince of this World.

    After trying to kill the messenger and destroying Jerusalem...................... but failing to stop the message he Then uses his Fourth Kingdom Rome to

    [17] Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea.

    He uses Rome to persecute Christianity. Which is a well documented fact.

    What I do agree with .....to a degree......is that these ten Kings in RV17: which have not yet received Royal Power....are leaders you are saying monetary I assume you are drawing that conclusion from Rv 18 and the Traders........I have always seen them as elected officials who as such do not have the Power to Turn their respective Territories over to the Beast but as Kings Their power is absolute. That is why they are made Kings for the one Hour Ceremony to Give the Beast from the pit control of the Empire.
     
  12. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    It is not about Mary, it is about Israel from which Mary came. The "woman" is ISRAEL. It will be those in Judea that flee. Don't you remember Jesus saying that?

    Always remember, chapter 12 is a MIDPOINT chapter, but verses 1-5 are written as a parenthesis about Jesus' birth. This chapter is God introducing John to the dragon - and in particular, what the dragon will be doing in the last half of the week. But God CHOSE to show John what the dragon did when He was a young child.

    In Revelation 12, a midpoint chapter, if you insist that the 7th and final world beast is in place, I will not argue the point. But leave the first 5 verses out of it, for they are about Christ's birth.

    What you missed: the first five verses are written as a parenthesis and have ZERO to do with events at the midpoint.
     
  13. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    See my answer to Alex.
     
  14. Alex Tennent

    Alex Tennent For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

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    Hello Just The Facts,

    And thank you for the good spirit of your post.

    You state:

    Your above post is interesting, I disagree on Rev 12 being Future I believe rev 12 is the only Historical part of Revelation

    [15] The serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, to sweep her away with the flood.

    This gives us a direct tie into Daniel 9: and the Destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD

    (end quote)

    I think one has to be very careful when interpreting these prophetic events, and we know that the Messiah said not one scripture can be broken. Those who say that is Mary giving birth to Jesus in Rev 12 are breaking the scripture, because Mary did not flee to the wilderness for 3 ½ years, she went to Egypt for two, then back to Israel. So in my belief, that interpretation must be discarded.

    Same thing with those who say the little horn coming up in the midst of the ten horns is Antiochus, this does not fit at all. Yes, having Satan indwell Antiochus will look similar to Satan indwelling the antichrist, but these are two different events. The antichrist and the ten kings are specific to the seventh and final Beast head kingdom (Rome was the sixth, in which Jesus lived and was born). Daniel looks out ahead to the four beast world systems ahead of him (Medo/ Persia, Greece, Rome, and the seventh and final beast system which is forming now).

    Those four Daniel enumerates, along with Babylon (when Daniel lived) and Egypt (the first) and Assyria (the second) make up the seven headed beast in Revelation 12. Notice that the seven heads are crowned at that time period in Rev 12, the seventh head was not crowned when Jesus was born, neither were the ten kings there.

    I agree that the dragon is not specifically the Beast, and I did not say he was, but the dragon (Satan) gives the beast it’s power and authority (Rev 13:2), and the seven heads are various manifestations of his rule through the seven kingdoms through history.

    You wrote:

    After trying to kill the messenger and destroying Jerusalem...................... but failing to stop the message he Then uses his Fourth Kingdom Rome to

    [17] Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea.

    (end quote)

    With all due respect, I think you are again reading your interpretation into the text, and it is breaking scripture as I said above. This cannot be the fourth kingdom (from Daniel’s perspective) when Jesus was born for the reasons I gave above. Notice below that the fourth kingdom takes place just before the Ancient of Days takes control and the Millennial rule begins, which is out ahead of us:

    Daniel 7:20-28 and the meaning of the ten horns that were on its head, and the other horn which came up, and before which three of them fell, namely, that horn which had eyes and a mouth uttering great boasts, and which was larger in appearance than its associates.

    21 "I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them (my note: i.e. the antichrist)

    22 until the Ancient of Days came, and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom. (my note: this didn't happen during Antiochus, or Rome)

    23 "Thus he said: 'The fourth beast will be a fourth kingdom on the earth, which will be different from all the other kingdoms, and it will devour the whole earth and tread it down and crush it (my note: this is the antichrist system, not Rome).

    24 'As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will subdue three kings.

    25 'And he will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time. (My note: i.e. 3 1/2 years, antichrist system)

    26 'But the court will sit for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever.

    27 'Then the sovereignty, the dominion, and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him.' (my note: this didn't happen after Jesus was born, in Rome, or after Antiochus)

    28 "At this point the revelation ended. As for me, Daniel, my thoughts were greatly alarming me and my face grew pale, but I kept the matter to myself."


    You wrote:



    What I do agree with .....to a degree......is that these ten Kings in RV17: which have not yet received Royal Power....are leaders you are saying monetary I assume you are drawing that conclusion from Rv 18 and the Traders........I have always seen them as elected officials who as such do not have the Power to Turn their respective Territories over to the Beast but as Kings Their power is absolute. That is why they are made Kings for the one Hour Ceremony to Give the Beast from the pit control of the Empire.

    (end quote)

    Nice that we can end with an agreement! And yes, I see them as being financial kings who rule the earth right now by controlling the money systems. They are described as “kings without a kingdom.” They rule as kings with their power but have no set delineated kingdom. But they do seem to have the world divided at some point for a more outward rule. I believe the “one hour” is not literal, but speaks of a short period of time (often in scripture) and refers to their ruling 3 ½ years alongside the antichrist (see Rev 17:12-14, and verse 16 & 17 there, which was not fulfilled in Rome after Jesus was born).

    Lord bless you!

    Alex
     
  15. Alex Tennent

    Alex Tennent For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

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    Hi Iamlamad,

    The reason I disagree with your view is because Rev 12:3 shows the the seven heads all existing and having crowns, and the ten horns are also pictured. Jesus did not live during the period of the ten horns (ten kings) or when the seventh head beast system was crowned, this time period is just ahead. Notice that the ten horns/ten kings burn the whore religious system, this did not happen in Rome!

    Revelation 17:12-18 "And the ten horns which you saw are ten kings, who have not yet received a kingdom, but they receive authority as kings with the beast for one hour.

    13 "These have one purpose and they give their power and authority to the beast.

    14 "These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful."

    15 And he said to me, "The waters which you saw where the harlot sits, are peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues.

    16 "And the ten horns which you saw, and the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked, and will eat her flesh and will burn her up with fire.

    17 "For God has put it in their hearts to execute His purpose by having a common purpose, and by giving their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God should be fulfilled.

    18 "And the woman whom you saw is the great city, which reigns over the kings of the earth."
    (end quote, and that woman is still doing fine in our day, the harlot church was not burned in Roman times)

    These things did not happen after Jesus was born, if anything the harlot was increased and grew mightily. We have to be more careful when interpreting these events to make every piece of the puzzle fit.

    Have to run...

    All the best,

    Alex
     
  16. Just The Facts

    Just The Facts Senior Veteran

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    Hi Alex

    I could not agree more we must be very careful. There is no way this woman is Mary or the Nation of Judea for that matter. Prophetic symbolism is consistent through out the OT and NT. I believe we have hundreds if not thousands of view points because everyone "Interprets" scripture instead of letting it explaining itself, If you have a map you do not ask Tom, Dick or Harry what the Symbols mean ....well you could but you will just get lost........................you look to the Map itself where you will find the legend and there every symbol is explained.

    I will not go past that because there is a Thread about who the Woman is.

    I agree the fourth Kingdom is there at Jesus' return. However it is also there at the fall of Greece.

    [44] And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed,

    The term in those days implies that it is a different time then the Kingdom itself. However that is not enough to come to this conclusion on its own so the question is if this Kingdom of Iron is Not Rome where is Rome? That is one of my problems I have with this Futurist view of prophecy. I Believe God tells us all the major Kingdoms and events. I see this fourth Beast as Rome and in My opinion Rome never left us. In all reality we are Rome.

    I agree Antioch is not the little horn. Nor is Daniel 11 all about Antioch. Having said that I do believe Daniel 11 is part history part future. I will start a thread on a couple of parts so you can tell me your thoughts.

    I assume by messianic You Are of Jewish Heritage and Believe in Jesus. I spent a fair amount of time studying with a group Messianic Christians. I found their understanding of Hebrew Traditions and culture very enlightening. However their view of these things was far different from what I have seen you post.
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2019
  17. Alex Tennent

    Alex Tennent For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

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    Hi Just The Facts!

    I believe that Daniel (in Daniel 2:40-44) is skipping Greece and Rome in this picture, and jumps from Babylon (with a brief mention of Medo-Persia, which followed Babylon) to the final fourth kingdom. But I think the ten toes correspond to the ten horns/ten kings of the final kingdom. I believe this fourth kingdom in Daniel 2 is the same as the fourth beast Daniel speaks of in Daniel 7:7 and following.

    As you mentioned, I agree that this soon coming fourth (and final) kingdom is a sort of extension of the Roman Republic in some ways, but in other ways the final Beast kingdom is very different and far more powerful than the others before it, as this scripture relates it breaking other nations into bits:


    NAS Daniel 7:19 "Then I desired to know the exact meaning of the fourth beast, which was different from all the others, exceedingly dreadful, with its teeth of iron and its claws of bronze, and which devoured, crushed, and trampled down the remainder with its feet,

    All the best,

    Alex
     
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  18. Just The Facts

    Just The Facts Senior Veteran

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    Hi ALex

    Am I to understand you do not see four Kingdoms in Daniel 2: Babylon then Persia then Greece

    [39] After you shall arise another kingdom inferior to you, and yet a third kingdom of bronze, which shall rule over all the earth.

    Now we all Know Babylon did not control the whole Earth Neither did Persia or the Third Kingdom. If we study further we will see that no Kingdom Ever controls the whole earth. OT Scripture often refers to the known world at the time as the whole earth. The OT simple does not see Asia China as included in this definition.

    As I stated above Rome is the Fourth Kingdom it never went away. We use parts of their language every single day. Our whole society is built on the Ideas first developed and propagated in Greece and Rome. Our Laws and Idea of Justice and freedom all come from this Empire. Our Buildings and architecture is Roman to the core. The Church that all western Christianity sprung from is Literally called The Roman Universal Church.

    The size of the solid rocket boosters on the Shuttle can be directly traced to Roman Measurements for pete sake. The width of our train tracks is directly related to the width of the wheel base of a Roman Chariot. It really does go on and On. Everyone is looking for the Reborn or Revised Roman Empire...........LOL You are living in it.
     
  19. tranquil

    tranquil Newbie

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    Again, all of this is a hypothetical frame to work with. And thanks for wording the summation like that, which wasn't how I thought of it, but I like it anyway.

    As to the 10 kings, I would put it more that there are 10 mega-corporations that merge under the leadership of 1 "CEO", the little horn.

    I hadn't thought about this before, but the little horn of Dan 8:23 'understands 'dark sentences'/ 'riddles' which I think in the modern context would be what is termed 'the occult'. Daniel 8:23 Interlinear: 'And in the latter end of their kingdom, about the perfecting of the transgressors, stand up doth a king, fierce of face, and understanding hidden things; this would fit nicely with the 'Illuminati' Freemasons. The Royal Family’s links to Freemasonry

    Also, in the same manner that one can trace a North West line from Israel to Rome, (Daniel 8:9), you can go a little further down that same line to arrive at the UK.

    ETA: the purpose of the 6th king, who is ostensibly a good Christian/ good Catholic is to make people disgusted with Christianity in general. So when we get to scapegoating the Pope, people will not tolerate it anymore, in favor of something they hope they like better.
     
  20. DaDad

    DaDad Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Exactly as Scripture and History fulfill -- as explained!

    DaDad
     
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