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Featured So why Seven Heads

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Just The Facts, Feb 19, 2019.

  1. OldWiseGuy

    OldWiseGuy A person of low ability. Supporter

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    I do feel much younger than my age. :D
     
  2. Just The Facts

    Just The Facts Senior Veteran

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    Hello Dadad

    Are you saying the four kingdoms that came out on top are not the four being spoken of in Daniel 8?

    As far as revised Europe boarders change in Europe faster than a politician changes their story.

    Join back together half of those countries have a few drop out.
     
  3. tranquil

    tranquil Newbie

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    If Pres. Trump dies and 'comes back to life', then you are saying that Trump, as the 45th president suddenly becomes the 46th president when he gets off the operating table?

    Really, who would think this?
     
  4. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    It would be quiet a constitutional question, if you lengthen that out to maybe three or four days.

    Let's hypothetical say president Trump dies, he is immediately replaced as commander in chief by the vice president. And three or four days later, Trump comes back to life. Who continues as president? The former vice president? or come back to life former President Trump?

    In that case, if was determined that Trump was president, he would be the 46th President, with the vice president as commander in chief in the interim. Let's just stick to the bible, okay?
    ________________________________________________________________

    The arch villain of the end times prophecy is more complicated than your example.
    As you are leaving out the factor of an ancient person also being involved .

    In Revelation 17:8a the unclean spirit of the ancient person currently in the bottomless pit called the beast - will come out and possess the end times person, for that last 42 months.

    That unclean spirit becomes the eighth king, as well, by possessing the slain and come back to life end times person.

    The difference between being the 7th king and the 8th king is the person is not the beast in the 7th king role, but is the beast in the 8th king role.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2019
  5. Just The Facts

    Just The Facts Senior Veteran

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    Hi Dougg

    ??????? are you saying trump is the AC???????
     
  6. DaDad

    DaDad Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Hey JTF,

    I'm saying that the Ram's two horns are NOT fulfilled by the Medo/Persian King Cyrus; that the He-Goat is NOT Alexander; that history disputes the commentator assignment of four of Alexander's Generals as heirs; that Alexander DID NOT CONQUER "to the south, to the east, and toward the glorious land"; and on, and on, and on.

    People need to STOP BELIEVING THE LIES, -- and START by obeying the angelic instructions in 12:4 & 9. These aren't ancient prophecies, they're MODERN prophecies, but apparently doctrines are more important than FACTS!

    Hope this helps,
    DaDad
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2019
  7. tranquil

    tranquil Newbie

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    Your obsession with '1' "arch villain" is preventing you from seeing how the pieces fit together.

    There are at least 3 'arch villains' (Zechariah 11:8) (probably all three having a mortal head wound Zechariah 11:17)

    Here is how I currently see it:
    Rev 17
    6And I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of the martyrs of Jesus.

    When I saw her, I marveled greatly. 7But the angel said to me, “Why do you marvel? I will tell you the mystery of the woman, and of the beast with seven heads and ten horns that carries her. 8The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel to see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come. 9This calls for a mind with wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated;

    10they are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, and when he does come he must remain only a little while. 11As for the beast that was and is not, it is an eighth but it belongs to the seven, and it goes to destruction. 12And the ten horns that you saw are ten kings who have not yet received royal power, but they are to receive authority as kings for one hour, together with the beast. 13These are of one mind, and they hand over their power and authority to the beast. 14They will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for he is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those with him are called and chosen and faithful.”​

    the woman, prostitute of Babylon, is Rome, the Catholic church led by the Pope.

    The 'beast' is not the woman, the beast is not the Pope.

    The 'beast' individual is the 6th head, the 7th has not arrived. When Revelation 17:10 says '5 have fallen', it means that the 6th head has taken over 5 other heads:

    The leopard has 4 heads, the bear has 1 head, the lion has 1 head. The 'beast' individual is one of the 4 Leopard heads. 1 head of the Leopard rules the other 3 heads of the leopard + 1 bear + 1 lion. These are the 5 that have fallen (3 leopard + 1 bear + 1 lion = 5) (with an implication of worship, as in 'falling down to worship').

    The woman (Papal Rome) co-rules with the 'beast'/ the 6th head while the 7th head has not arrived. In prophecy terms, this 6th head individual is the 'Great Monarch'. ~Prophesies Regarding the Coming Great Catholic Monarch - Yves Dupont - Catholic Prophecy~

    (It's unclear to me when exactly the Great Monarch starts to reign, possibly at the start of the Day of the Lord, Feb 4, 2021.]

    When does the 7th head arrive? 1st, let's establish that the 7th head is the dragon/ dragon kingdom, the 4th / last kingdom of the Daniel 7 beasts. It is the dragon kingdom that gives the 11th horn, the Daniel 7 little horn a throne: Revelation 13:2

    We know that the dragon kingdom has 2 phases, a pre- little horn phase & a little horn phase.

    Revelation 12:3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems.

    and Revelation 13:1 And I saw a beast rising out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, with ten diadems on its horns and blasphemous names on its heads.

    The 7th crown phase doesn't have the little horn & the 10 crown phase does (because they give their royal authority to the little horn to wage war on Christians. Revelation 17:12-14)

    So, when does the 4th kingdom, the dragon kingdom arrive? When the Rev 12 woman is pregnant, then the sign of 7 headed, 7 crowned dragon appears in heaven: Revelation 12:1-3. that's the arrival of the 7th head which will occur Aug 17, 2024 which is 266 days before the end of the 1260 days of the 2 witnesses (May 10, 2025) (266 days is the exact day amount of pregnancy).

    Then the beast from the sea starts at May 14, 2025, the end of the 1260 days of the 2 witnesses + 3.5 days of laying dead = the 77th anniversary of Jerusalem desolations. (for those keeping count, the timeframes of Revelation start at the 70th anniversary (dusk April 18, 2018 + 70 weeks + 7 weeks + 62 weeks + .5 week aka 3.5 days + 1335 days + 266 days (then subtract 1260 days to get to the start of the 2 witnesses) after the 266 days add + 3.5 days for the 2 witnesses to lie dead. Then the 7th Trumpet & start of the beast from the sea & the little horn, the 7 headed, 10 crowned beast with the little horn that wages war on Christians.

    Papal Rome is overthrown at the 7th Trumpet (which again the unfaithful woman is separate from the 6th head, the Great Monarch which apparently dies Aug 17, 2024, 266 + 3.5 days earlier.)
     
  8. tranquil

    tranquil Newbie

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    He isn't saying that, I just used that as an example.
     
  9. DaDad

    DaDad Well-Known Member Supporter

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    There are LOTS of men that look like trees and trees that look like men as we look through the glass darkly, but the shadows you see are NOT the "Catholic church" or the "Pope". Perhaps you've been lied to by people who are either not proficient, or are not trustworthy:

    “[The] five of whom are fallen [presumes John’s work to be written in] Vespasian’s reign. Titus is to come, but only to last for a short time. Perhaps the writer knew of the hopeless condition of Titus’ health. He is therefore either using a literary convention, and assuming an earlier date than is the fact to give his words the force of a prophecy concerning Titus, or, more likely, his is using here material written in Vespasian’s reign which partly suits his purpose and partly not; for there are very good reasons for thinking that this book was written, not in Vespasian’s reign, but in Domitian’s.”[1]
    [1] Eiselen, Frederick, Edwin Lewis, & David Downey, The Abingdon Bible Commentary, Abingdon Press, NY, 1929, p. 1392


    There are clear explanations for these "mountains"/"kings" but the TRUTH is obscured by the commentators and liars (oops, -- redundant), so it's much more difficult to correctly resolve.

    Have you considered starting at the basis, or are you content jumping to conclusions?


    DaDad
     
  10. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    I am trying to follow but you have too much, to know what you are talking about.

    What are the roles of the three arch villains, as you see it? Simplified
    . So we can work from there. Such as I have done for the three main roles of the arch villain of the end times as...in sequence.

    King of the Roman Empire, the EU, the little horn, king 7
    King of Israel, the Antichrist
    King of the Roman Empire, the EU, the beast, king 8.

    If I included the transitional roles, it would be...

    King of the Roman Empire, the EU, the little horn, king 7
    prince who shall come, transitional role, to become the Antichrist
    King of Israel, the Antichrist
    the revealed man of sin, transitional role, exit being the Antichrist, to become the beast
    King of the Roman Empire, the EU, the beast, king 8.
     
  11. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    I am not hearing anyone make that claim. It is the little horn, not Alexander, in Daniel 8:9.

    Daniel 8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
     
  12. DaDad

    DaDad Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Thanks! -- Intended as "Alexander's successors" ...

    DaDad
     
  13. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    Right: Antiochus Epiphanes
     
  14. Alex Tennent

    Alex Tennent For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

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  15. DaDad

    DaDad Well-Known Member Supporter

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    WRONG. You can't get there from either Scripture or History, but don't let those minor inconveniences change you mind! :)

    DaDad
     
  16. tranquil

    tranquil Newbie

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    I'm sorry Doug, it is alot. I will try to be simpler.

    When Rev 17 says 'the beast that was, is not, and yet is': we know that there is a mortally head wounded individual - Zechariah 11:17; so yes that fits that statement, but if we take the 'beast' as meaning 'kingdom' instead of the beast individual, it makes more sense to say that the kingdom 'comes to life' after getting its capital destroyed.

    For example, Wash DC could get attacked and Trump get a mortal head wound that he 'comes back to life' from. The US (beast kingdom) would receive a 'mortal head wound' and 'come back to life' with a new capital (say, Denver). This situation would fulfill 'the beast that was, is not, and yet is' just as much as Trump recovering from a mortal head wound...

    Rev 17:8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction.

    Rev 17:11 As for the beast that was and is not, it is an eighth but it belongs to the seven, and it goes to destruction.

    Instead of saying that Trump becomes the 46th President when he 'comes back to life', I think it is more appropriate to say that the beast kingdom 'gets a new king' when it 'comes back to life': which would explain why there is a 7th king, then an 8th king - the beast 'kingdom' received a new king when the kingdom 'came back to life'.

    To amplify this point, let's remember Revelation 12:1-3 where the 'dragon' has 7 heads, 10 horns, & 7 crowns. (and the 'dragon' is the Daniel 7 4th terrible beast kingdom).

    Revelation 13 has the 'beast from the sea' with 7 heads, 10 horns, & 10 crowns. All this means is that the beast from the sea has the 11th horn, the little horn- which has the mouth that blasphemes God of Daniel 7. The 'beast from the sea & earth' is just another way to say 'beast from the abyss/ bottomless pit'. (the 'dragon + the lion, bear, & leopard = the beast from the sea)

    Put another way, the 7 crowned dragon indicates that the 7th head has arrived (because in Revelation 17:10 the whore is co-ruling with the 6th head but the 7th hasn't arrived yet.

    Then when the 4th 'terrible beast' / the 'dragon' of Daniel 7/ the 'dragon kingdom' gets a mortal head wound - it makes sense what the 'was, is not, and yet is' means - the dragon kingdom had the 7th king, then the kingdom 'comes back to life' with the replacement of the 7th head with the 8th king. The 7th king, then the little horn 8th king who makes the 'dragon kingdom' 'come back to life.

    Hope that made more sense.
     
  17. DaDad

    DaDad Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Yep, -- the "seven mountains" are "seven kings" which is to say KINGDOMS!


    If you go to Daniel 2 and find FIVE, -- where the Fifth is "divided" between the Chapter 7 Three Superpowers plus the fourth United Nations, then you can arrive to your seven kingdoms, and the "eighth that was and is not" because the U.N. has NO Geography, NO Populous, NO army, etc. It's simply a paper creation:

    1. Gold, Babylonia -- 1 of 5 has fallen
    2. Silver, Medo/Persian -- 2 of 5 has fallen
    3. Bronze, Grecian -- 3 of 5 has fallen
    4. Iron, Roman -- 4 of 5 has fallen
    -- Clay, "divided"
    -- 5. Lion/Eagle, U.K./U.S. -- 5 of 5 has fallen from preeminence
    -- 6. Bear, Russia -- "one is" when it attacks Israel
    -- 7. Leopard (actually a "Tiger"), China -- "is yet to come" when it spanks Russia
    -- 8. "Dreadful", United Nations -- "was and is not", and has NO Geography, NO Populous, NO Army, etc.

    9. Great Stone, Jesus' Millennial Kingdom
    10. New Jerusalem, eternity in Heaven​

    And of course it may simply be "coincidental" (and I BELIEVE in a LOT of Scriptural "coincidences" -- NOT), you might discover that the U.N. has FIVE Permanent SC Members, and FIVE Nominated Permanet SC Members:

    Permanent Membership on the Security Council
    1. U.S.
    2. U.K.
    3. France
    4. Russia
    5. China

    NOMINATED for Permanent Membership on the Security Council *
    6. Germany – economic power
    7. Japan – economic power
    8. Brazil – regional representative for S. America
    9. Nigeria – regional representative for Africa
    10. India – regional representative for the Near East

    * “The Road To Reform: Towards A New Clarity,” U.N. Chronicle, UMI, Vol. 30, Issue 4, December 1993, pp. 45-46​


    Wow! What a "coincidence".

    Good Call! :)
    DaDad
     
  18. tranquil

    tranquil Newbie

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    King of the Roman Empire, the EU, the little horn, king 7
    King of Israel, the Antichrist
    King of the Roman Empire, the EU, the beast, king 8.
    I'm not sure why you put the little horn role before the beast.

    The little horn comes out of the beast, the little horn is a beast from the get-go. 1st comes the dragon kingdom/ Dan 7's 4th terrible beast kingdom (Revelation 12:1-3 dragon with 7 heads, 10 horns, 7 crowns.) The little horn, the 11th horn is elected when the 10 horns become 10 kings
    as in Rev 13's 7 headed, 10 horns, 10 crowns.
     
  19. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    But we can't apply was, is not, and yet is - to a kingdom. The same type language is used in speaking of Jesus in Revelation 1:4. The language applies to a person.

    I need from you something in identifable terms.

    The beast which you are saying is a kingdom is what in actual terms? China, Texas, Australia, ....?

    Please give me something is outline form identifying the three arch villains of the end times you are claiming. Short and identifiable, like the examples in parenthesis.

    1. ???? (leader of Russia?)
    2. ???? (head of the International Monetary System)
    3. ???? (the Pope)
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2019
  20. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Because the person is not the beast as the little horn. He goes through the role of being the King of Israel for a while, first.

    Being the beast is being the King of the Roman Empire, the EU, for the last 42 months of the 7 years.


    The beast in Daniel 7 that the little horn comes out is a kingdom.

    The little horn does not become the beast until he has gone through other roles first. Being the beast does not happen to the person until the middle part of the 7 years.

    For that reason, the roles he will go through, you should be referring to the person as the arch villain of the end times - when referring to him in the broad sense.
    ____________________________________________________________________________________

    Tranquil, in your thought process, you have not developed and communicated clearly to others, a path that the person, the arch villain of the end times goes through to his destruction, on a time line. So no one can figure out what you are saying.

    In my own explanations, I too am saying things that if only by sentences - would be hard for others to follow.

    So I often use out line form. Which is what I am asking something similar of you.

    King of the Roman Empire, the EU, the little horn, king 7
    King of Israel, the Antichrist
    King of the Roman Empire, the EU, the beast, king 8.

    I also put everything on a chart that can be followed. You may not have the skills to do that. So I do not ask for the same from you.

    The EU for example, as the little horn's kingdom, is that not something tangible? King of Israel, is that not something tangible as well?[​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2019
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