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You're the one who is falsely calling people bigots. You need to apologize to WA for being wrong about her and bearing false witness against her. You called her a bigot for something she said that Jesus Himself taught. You are so into defending gays that you forgot all about what the Catholic Church and the Bible teach.Okay, this is my last post. I will ask the powers that be to close this dumb thread.
Like that Hurricane Katrina Army, John Wayne looking Dude said, " Let's not get stuck on stupid..." and we, we are seriously stuck on stupid.
Look, here it is, Baby- I can not take you seriously. I just don't think you're intentions are pure. You just want to play games and try to entrap me in my own posts to make me look bad....and like, yeah, like that's going to happen....
WA- I'm really concerned for you because the prism you see things through... is, well, heterodox. You're views on hell, your obsession with punishment and justice, cloud your vision... It is a form of Jansenism.
when you said you spank your children to give them a fear of God and hell... that is when you really lost me.
When you speak about the immigration problem, welfare, Obama, the Muslims, etc, you speak in the same fashion a bigot would.
I wish nothing but the best for you and I pray God will give you some much needed perspective.
You said she was a bigot because she said that there's no sex in Heaven. And you asked me to show where the Catholic Church teaches this. I showed you where Jesus says this. WA obviously knew that Jesus said this and was repeating what Jesus had said. WA was in line with Catholic teaching with what she said, but you were not.Its my belief. I do not know for sure, but I know she speaks in the same fashion as one would and I explained myself thoroughly to her why I feel as I do- you need to just mind your own business. This is not between me and you. Its between her and I.
You mean HypocrisyThis is such a perfectly British sentiment, well done sir!
A) where did I accuse you?
B) watch this... WA, do you think homosexuals and Lesbians need to get rid of a SSA? Or can they remain gay and lesbian and just be celibate? Does God want them to remain homosexual?
Or do they have to work with Christ and he will de-sexualize them or do they have to join Courage so they can be made straight?
Please tell Baby what you think because I am not going and pulling up quotes... like I have time for that...
I agree with you. The idea that we can understand God and His creationAll I was saying is that God did not create us disordered. Therefore homosexual attraction, which is a disordered attraction (it says this in the Catechism of the Catholic Church), is not something that was created by God. God created the world with order, not disorder. Although we all have a tendency to sin, God didn't originally create humans with sin or with disordered attractions or behavior. Disorder came when sin entered into the world after the fall of Adam and Eve.
Some animals sometimes demonstrate what is mistaken for homosexual behavior when one male mounts another such as when wolves do this is to establish dominance in the pack. It's symbolic, not homosexual. Or if one were to put two male animals together in captivity and not have any females around one animal might rape the other but only because they are put in an unnatural environment. If a female were to be introduced, the male would prefer the female.
Nevertheless, even if there was any real proof of homosexual behavior in animals, humans are not called to act like animals. Animals greet each other by smelling each others butts, and they sometimes fling feces at each other. But God expects more of humans. Like I said, the world we see today has disorder in it, but God didn't create it that way.
You insist forcibly that they remain as homosexuals and not humans who are Christian and God centered.
I suggest i dont have the issue - it seems you want them to hold onto labels such as homosexual rather than letting them just be saints.
I am sure as Needing Grace continues he will lose the self identity as anything sexual and find he wants to be known as simply Christian.
Of course i cannot speak for him, and he can disagree with me, thats fine. I dont speak for him, but it is evident he is working towards non-sexuality in God.
JUST as all the Saints.
How often do we look at Saints and wonder - wow what did they do in bed?
We dont.
We look at their journey in and with God and how they lived their lives in an ordered piety without serious sins.
That is how we ought to view everyone...not hold them up because of a sexuality. Or mark them as a certain type of sexual being.
Saints are never remembered for the sexuality....so thats where we are at with this discussion.
Even when Needing Grace and FranciscanSpirit both said, that's total BS... you still think you know better then what they do? even when this is not what the Church says they have to do???
Benedicta, I love your compassion in this area, but Courage isn't about changing orientation. Courage's goals are listed below and orientation change isn't on the list.
Courage, in fact, the only ministry approved by the Church itself, towards helping gays live in accord with the Church's teachings. I've known about them for years and came into the Church through a Courage chaplain.
My beef is the insistence on reading of the 12-Steps of AA at each meeting. To me, it implies that a person with SSA is the same as a rock-bottom drunk, and that's a bit of an insult. The Twleve Steps of Courage, they change only a few words (alcoholics to homosexuality in the first step and "other alcoholics" reads simply, "others" or "other homosexuals."). While some of the steps are part of Catholic practice (examination of conscience, confession, reparation, etc.), the notion that I'm a dude that likes other dudes means that my life is unmanageable is pretty silly (Step One).
On the other hand I LOVE LOVE LOVE the Five Goals of Courage, which basically can be used as the basis upon which to build a plan of life. I'll post them here for everyone's benefit.
Now who could argue with those goals!?
- To Live chaste lives in accordance with the Roman Catholic Church's teaching on human sexuality.
- To dedicate ones life to Christ through service to others, spiritual reading, prayer, meditation, individual spiritual direction, frequent attendance at Mass, and the frequent reception of the sacraments of Reconciliation and Holy Eucharist.
- To foster a spirit of fellowship in which all may share thoughts and experiences, and so ensure that no one will have to face their problems alone.
- To be mindful of the truth that chaste friendships are not only possible but necessary in chaste Christian living and in doing so provide encouragement to one another in forming and sustaining them.
- Live lives that may serve as good examples to others.
An excellent and clear post .Thankyou.I can't speak for WA. I can only speak for myself. I notice that you didn't quote what she allegedly said. Since you have accused me of being a bigot when I know I'm not you are probably misrepresenting WA as well. I think you wouldn't see us even talking about homosexuality if people weren't using it to try to change the sacrament of marriage and then trying to force us to accept that change. As a Catholic, I don't appreciate anyone trying to mess with God's sacraments.
Why do you want them all to remain that way? What about the ones who can and do change? Do you have a problem with them? My belief is they don't sin by struggling with SSA, but I don't say they should give up the struggle and just stay that way when it is a disordered attraction. With God all things are possible, but without God nothing is possible. I know I have to continue to struggle against my tendencies to sin, so why should they be any different? In Heaven there won't be any sexual temptation nor any tendency to sin, so there is a positive end if we keep up the struggle against temptations to sin here in this world.
No one has denied that homosexuality has existed in ancient times. Most people are familiar with the story of Sodom and Gomorrah in the book of Genesis.
Just because someone doesn't see things exactly the way you do doesn't make them a bigot. The people you keep accusing of being bigots have told you numerous times that they don't hate the sinner but only the sin. Why can't you just accept that? It reminds me of how some Protestants will keep accusing us of worshiping the Blessed Virgin Mary in place of God no matter how many times we tell them that we don't. Also, none of the ones who you call a self-righteous bigot has ever denied being a sinner. A self-righteous person is one who denies that they sin. This is ironic since the ones who actually deny that they sin are the gay activists who you defend.
I haven't seen anyone in OBOB say that the attraction by itself is a mortal sin. Quoting from the CCC is better than shooting from the hip and being wrong. I and others have had posts that contained no more and no less than a direct quote from the CCC, and you still had a problem with the post. If you don't have a problem with the CCC you wouldn't have a problem with people quoting from it. But apparently you don't like it when people quote from the CCC which is odd for someone who says they believe in it. If someone quotes from the CCC they probably know what the quote says.
So all heterosexual people have happy families,and easy lives.Well that is news to me .Life is a struggle, always .It's just that some bear it better than others. If I ever meet a family without grief, without pain,it will be in heaven. Jesus speaks a lot against 'envy'. Just because someone has something that you do not have,does not mean you should have it if you are not meant to ,have not been granted it.I believe the point is that Catholic gay people are not struggling with "same sex attraction," they are struggling with temptations away from chastity and at the same time the idea they are NEVER supposed to have the same kind of intimate family relationships that straight people take for granted.
This whole post is melodramatic - over the top exaggerations.Okay, this is my last post. I will ask the powers that be to close this dumb thread.
Like that Hurricane Katrina Army, John Wayne looking Dude said, " Let's not get stuck on stupid..." and we, we are seriously stuck on stupid.
Look, here it is, Baby- I can not take you seriously. I just don't think you're intentions are pure. You just want to play games and try to entrap me in my own posts to make me look bad....and like, yeah, like that's going to happen....
WA- I'm really concerned for you because the prism you see things through... is, well, heterodox. You're views on hell, your obsession with punishment and justice, cloud your vision... It is a form of Jansenism.
You make molehills into literal mountains...drama drama drama.when you said you spank your children to give them a fear of God and hell... that is when you really lost me.
I speak the truth.When you speak about the immigration problem, welfare, Obama, the Muslims, gays, etc, you speak in the same fashion a bigot would.
If that were true then you wouldnt smear my character all over the forum and bear false witness.I wish nothing but the best for you and I pray God will give you some much needed perspective.
You said she was a bigot because she said that there's no sex in Heaven. .
And for the others out there who succeeded they say it is not BS.
So instead of corrallng a group into one area - at least understand individualism still exists. AS i am sure even our friends in here know that.
EVEN if they do or do not resist attraction they are not the poster child of what the human will is capable of. Anything is possible with God.
Courage does not demand that one deny their same-sex attractions, it recognizes SSA and provides support in dealing with it. Courage's first goal is compliance with the Church's teachings on human sexuality. Human sexuality comes in two flavors: male and female. There is no option for neuter.
Jesus, the Head of the Catholic Church said, "For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven." - Matthew 22:30
The Pope is the Vicar of Christ, but Jesus is the Head of the Church. This has always been the teaching of the Catholic Church. See the following:Get out of here... this does not say gays have to be non sexual or go to hell.
when we ALL die, all of us, we will have no use for attractions because there is no marriage in heaven.
But where does the Church, the CHURCH! in an offical statement- TEACH that a gay, its the Lord will, for them to live like they are already in heaven with no sexuilty at all?
where does the Church say that? and like its useless to argue with the Prots when they pull the bible says so game... I will not do the same with you. Are you a Prot? No. So who do you think you are to tare a page out of their play book?
You have no authority to quote the bible out of context and apply it to your OWN ideas... that are warped, BTW, in case you didn't know.
and guess what? You just admitted you were not being honest... nothing new there.
So you do feel celibacy is not good enough, they have to deny a SSA or burn in hell.
so that would be a yes, you do agree with WA... that makes two really messed up views that are in no way catholic.. thank God.
Courage does not demand that one deny their same-sex attractions, it recognizes SSA and provides support in dealing with it. Courage's first goal is compliance with the Church's teachings on human sexuality. Human sexuality comes in two flavors: male and female. There is no option for neuter.
He came to call sinners - not kill them off.
Go and sin no more
In Heaven we do not marry and we are not sexual beings,.
Period.
SO if gays want to do the Lord's will, they will be non sexual
Try it from here:Mathew 12The similarity in the two passages is that in the one you quoted, they were accusing Jesus of being unclean. In this one, they are accusing the disciples of sin.
1
At that time Jesus was going through a field of grain on the sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick the heads of grain and eat them.
2
When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, “See, your disciples are doing what is unlawful to do on the sabbath.”
3
He said to them, “Have you not read what David did when he and his companions were hungry,
4
how he went into the house of God and ate the bread of offering,d which neither he nor his companions but only the priests could lawfully eat?
5
Or have you not read in the law that on the sabbath the priests serving in the temple violate the sabbath and are innocent?
6
I say to you, something greater than the temple is here.
7
If you knew what this meant, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice, you would not have condemned these innocent men.
8
For the Son of Man is Lord of the sabbath.”
Jesus is saying that breaking a rule or law of the church, doesn't make you a sinner. He is saying God wants mercy from us for one another, not obedience to rules. He is most definitely not saying "Go and sin no more."
The sacrifice He refers to is the ritualistic behavior demanded in the practice of religion. What God values in us is charity. Jesus says it over and over in so many ways.
benedictaoo,
Calm down. No one here is saying that they hate gays. Like I said, what I have a problem with is when they try to force us to accept things like so-called "gay marriage"..
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