So What Happens Now?

[Beloved2018]

Do we storm the Vatican or what?
It looks like the whole upper echelon needs to go.
It also looks like there needs to be some major ecclesiastical reforms.
I almost single handedly converted for Mary and the Papal See ( somewhere the Devil is laughing at me for the latter one).
I'm not missing the pre-Vatican II days. I'm missing the 16th century. When I converted, I thought I was going backwards. Gregorian chants anyone? Not the banal and certainly not anything idol endorsing.
Popes may have been scoundrels in the past, but recalling that fact isn't helpful. It just proves that at least in theory, he and his office can be a source of division (I.e protestants, EO).
The papal office and the claims associated with it are a big part of Catholicism, both historically and doctrinally.
I can't imagine that we're just suppose to sit here and not hold the current pope and his magisterium to account.
For the good of the Church and the papacy. Otherwise, how is the papacy and the magisterium not a joke?

 

[Dave G.]

Jesus Christ is the way the truth and the life, there is no other way unto heaven but through Him. Period. He said it not me. The veil was torn at the cross, we have direct access now. When in doubt, seek Jesus, the Holy Spirit will be your guide. Our relationship is with Him, it's personal and it's 24/7........ The remnant who believes that will come through this even if the Holy Spirit slams the door shut on the RCC.

 

[Gnarwhal]

Do we storm the Vatican or what?
It looks like the whole upper echelon needs to go.

I've definitely felt those impulses, but a friend on here reminded me how dangerously close to protestantism I'm flirting when I consider those ideas. And I appreciate him for that.

It also looks like there needs to be some major ecclesiastical reforms.
I almost single handedly converted for Mary and the Papal See ( somewhere the Devil is laughing at me for the latter one).
I'm not missing the pre-Vatican II days. I'm missing the 16th century. When I converted, I thought I was going backwards. Gregorian chants anyone? Not the banal and certainly not anything idol endorsing.
Popes may have been scoundrels in the past, but recalling that fact isn't helpful. It just proves that at least in theory, he and his office can be a source of division (I.e protestants, EO).
The papal office and the claims associated with it are a big part of Catholicism, both historically and doctrinally.
I can't imagine that we're just suppose to sit here and not hold the current pope and his magisterium to account.
For the good of the Church and the papacy. Otherwise, how is the papacy and the magisterium not a joke?

I think our best defense is to do our parts to ensure that the Tradition and Magisterium of the Church outlive any heterodoxy and heresy, and that has to begin at the local parish level.

Believe me, I understand how you feel. I didn't convert because Catholicism looked like Protestantism or secular liberalism. I converted because Catholicism from 33AD to the 1960s looked virtually the same and that contrary to popular belief, looking back at the Medieval and Renaissance eras of the Church was not regressive but full of virtue worth aspiring to.

Modernists weren't the ones who wooed me into the Church with their kitsch and glam. Jesus Christ was, using himself, and the timeless beauty of his Church's liturgy, and teaching, and philosophy, and reason, and music, and architecture, and art.

To me those things are stone that will endure. The trash that's built up throughout the Church is just that, and it will be swept away.

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

I've definitely felt those impulses, but a friend on here reminded me how dangerously close to protestantism I'm flirting when I consider those ideas. And I appreciate him for that.

That kind of reasoning doesnt add up. Its historically flawed. Martin Luther challenged the magisterium, in many ways like Francis does. He was a opportunist, but also driven by a strong sense of conscience.
I dont find an reasons to accuse someone who's actually defending the catholic faith against people like Francis and his peers.

The way that I see it someone has to say, enough! If the clergy is corrupted then a reform has to come from the bottom and up.
We're not like Lutherans, we embrace the doctrine and dogmas of the church. When we see enemies of said faith we call them out. This includes the pope and prelates.

Whoever made that claim mislead you. If we stay silent now, God will judge us. He spoke to our hearts and we said nothing. Were enabling the enemy to lead billions of people into perdition. It's dead serious and we shall not sleep in these times.

I agree wholeheartedly with beloved. We should call him out for what he is. If we face the facts, we'll come to see that we actually has a marxist pope.

This is not a trivial matter and it shouldn't be treated as such.

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

Do we storm the Vatican or what?
It looks like the whole upper echelon needs to go.
It also looks like there needs to be some major ecclesiastical reforms.
I almost single handedly converted for Mary and the Papal See ( somewhere the Devil is laughing at me for the latter one).
I'm not missing the pre-Vatican II days. I'm missing the 16th century. When I converted, I thought I was going backwards. Gregorian chants anyone? Not the banal and certainly not anything idol endorsing.
Popes may have been scoundrels in the past, but recalling that fact isn't helpful. It just proves that at least in theory, he and his office can be a source of division (I.e protestants, EO).
The papal office and the claims associated with it are a big part of Catholicism, both historically and doctrinally.
I can't imagine that we're just suppose to sit here and not hold the current pope and his magisterium to account.
For the good of the Church and the papacy. Otherwise, how is the papacy and the magisterium not a joke?

If we're sitting on our hands in a time like this, God will judge us accordingly. Do we care? Is the faith important to us?

 

[Gnarwhal]

That kind of reasoning doesnt add up. Its historically flawed. Martin Luther challenged the magisterium, in many ways like Francis does. He was a opportunist, but also driven by a strong sense of conscience.
I dont find an reasons to accuse someone who's actually defending the catholic faith against people like Francis and his peers.

The way that I see it someone has to say, enough! If the clergy is corrupted then a reform has to come from the bottom and up.
We're not like Lutherans, we embrace the doctrine and dogmas of the church. When we see enemies of said faith we call them out. This includes the pope and prelates.

Whoever made that claim mislead you. If we stay silent now, God will judge us. He spoke to our hearts and we said nothing. Were enabling the enemy to lead billions of people into perdition. It's dead serious and we shall not sleep in these times.

I agree wholeheartedly with beloved. We should call him out for what he is. If we face the facts, we'll come to see that we actually has a marxist pope.

This is not a trivial matter and it shouldn't be treated as such.

So what do you propose? Trad Catholics arm themselves and invade the Vatican? Grab Francis by the habit and expel him and his compatriots from St. Peters? Maybe we lynch them from the obelisk? Then who's choosing the next Pope? What then separates us from the protestant rebels of 500 years ago?

Nobody regards this as trivial. But we choose our battles, we play the hands we're dealt and we do so shrewdly.

Maybe you're not understanding what I'm saying: we do our part to preserve timeless orthodox Catholicism and it'll outlast the heterodoxy and heresy. The Church survives through groups like the FSSP and the ICKSP and it survives in the Bishop Schneiders and Cardinal Burks and Taylor Marshalls and Michael Voris and it survives in the families and groups and cultures that resist what hierarchs are trying to change.

Bad Popes come and go, they're not immortal, they die like every other human and they have their own judgment. What we do is make sure the truth faith is still breathing and ready to spring forth when the Pope who abused it passes on.

But Martin Luther is not a good example because regardless of his intentions, the fruit of his labor was rotten. Like they say, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

I'm going to start by worshiping God how he wants to be worshiped in spite of the contrarian views Francis espouses. But I'm not, nor will I be, a sedevacantist. And I'll NEVER go back to protestantism.

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

So what do you propose? Trad Catholics arm themselves and invade the Vatican? Grab Francis by the habit and expel him and his compatriots from St. Peters? Maybe we lynch them from the obelisk? Then who's choosing the next Pope? What then separates us from the protestant rebels of 500 years ago?

Nobody regards this as trivial. But we choose our battles, we play the hands we're dealt and we do so shrewdly.

Maybe you're not understanding what I'm saying: we do our part to preserve timeless orthodox Catholicism and it'll outlast the heterodoxy and heresy. The Church survives through groups like the FSSP and the ICKSP and it survives in the Bishop Schneiders and Cardinal Burks and Taylor Marshalls and Michael Voris and it survives in the families and groups and cultures that resist what hierarchs are trying to change.

Bad Popes come and go, they're not immortal, they die like every other human and they have their own judgment. What we do is make sure the truth faith is still breathing and ready to spring forth when the Pope who abused it passes on.

But Martin Luther is not a good example because regardless of his intentions, the fruit of his labor was rotten. Like they say, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

I'm going to start by worshiping God how he wants to be worshiped in spite of the contrarian views Francis espouses. But I'm not, nor will I be, a sedevacantist. And I'll NEVER go back to protestantism.

You forget the SSPX. They provide a great refuge for those who resent the Vatican, though they seem to dislike popebashing which is good I suppose.

I'm saying that we should be vocal, not silent. I believe we spoke past one another earlier in this thread. I'm not talking about taking up arms or whatever. I'm saying that we should denounce the pope as a heretic, explicitly.

It way to common to stay put, stay silent and try to put up a fake smile in church. We should warm others that he's leading people astray. Its very important to wake others. If we do this, then perhaps will see a revolt sometime in the future. Be that from the clergy or from the laity.

Silent treatment doenst work.

 

[Gnarwhal]

You forget the SSPX. They provide a great refuge for those who resent the Vatican, though they seem to dislike popebashing which is good I suppose.

I'm saying that we should be vocal, not silent. I believe we spoke past one another earlier in this thread. I'm not talking about taking up arms or whatever. I'm saying that we should denounce the pope as a heretic, explicitly.

It way to common to stay put, stay silent and try to put up a fake smile in church. We should warm others that he's leading people astray. Its very important to wake others. If we do this, then perhaps will see a revolt sometime in the future. Be that from the clergy or from the laity.

Silent treatment doenst work.

Sure that's fine, I would agree with that. I mean, I personally don't have activist inclinations so I don't offer up my thoughts and beliefs unsolicited, but if someone asks me what I think I will absolutely tell them the truth.

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

Sure that's fine, I would agree with that. I mean, I personally don't have activist inclinations so I don't offer up my thoughts and beliefs unsolicited, but if someone asks me what I think I will absolutely tell them the truth.

Sometimes my English skills, or lack of such, get in the way of our conversations in here, Fenwick. I'm happy that you and others with you have patience with me.

 

[Gnarwhal]

Sometimes my English skills, or lack of such, get in the way of our conversations in here, Fenwick. I'm happy that you and others with you have patience with me.

Likewise, I appreciate your patience with me as well. I know my tempter can flare and I don't practice charity like I ought to. God bless you.

 

[St Sebastian]

I personally find the seventh chapter of Ecclesiastes to powerfully call my attention, especially verse 10: "Do not say: How is it that former times were better than these? For it is not out of wisdom that you ask about this."

Troubled times, yes, but our call as believers is to abide in Christ. Everything else comes and goes. We are not promised to live in bliss; not even in the Church. As Jesus said to St. Peter: "What concern is it of yours? You follow me" (Jn 21:21).

 

[Beloved2018]

But they're not enduring. That's my point. When I said I left the 16th century ( I was referring to my Confessional Lutheran past). I thought converting to Catholicism would enrich me. Instead I have been up to my neck in modernism ever since. And now heresy. I get that most may not have come from my background. But I left a very ecclesiastically rich church tradition for a papacy that is now allowing idols in the Church.

I've definitely felt those impulses, but a friend on here reminded me how dangerously close to protestantism I'm flirting when I consider those ideas. And I appreciate him for that.
I think our best defense is to do our parts to ensure that the Tradition and Magisterium of the Church outlive any heterodoxy and heresy, and that has to begin at the local parish level.

Believe me, I understand how you feel. I didn't convert because Catholicism looked like Protestantism or secular liberalism. I converted because Catholicism from 33AD to the 1960s looked virtually the same and that contrary to popular belief, looking back at the Medieval and Renaissance eras of the Church was not regressive but full of virtue worth aspiring to.

Modernists weren't the ones who wooed me into the Church with their kitsch and glam. Jesus Christ was, using himself, and the timeless beauty of his Church's liturgy, and teaching, and philosophy, and reason, and music, and architecture, and art.

To me those things are stone that will endure. The trash that's built up throughout the Church is just that, and it will be swept away.

 

[anna ~ grace]

I personally find the seventh chapter of Ecclesiastes to powerfully call my attention, especially verse 10: "Do not say: How is it that former times were better than these? For it is not out of wisdom that you ask about this."

Troubled times, yes, but our call as believers is to abide in Christ. Everything else comes and goes. We are not promised to live in bliss; not even in the Church. As Jesus said to St. Peter: "What concern is it of yours? You follow me" (Jn 21:21).

This.

Hunker down. Keep receiving Christ. Keep praying the Rosary. Keep loving and running to Mary, our Mother. Keep following Christ. Keep praying. Keep the Faith.

I have a feeling a split is coming. Throwing those ugly idols into the Tiber was a first shot. The war is on.

Please keep the faith as best you can. I'll do the same. I have great hope that our Protestant, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodoxy, and Assyrian brothers and sisters might all come Home within our lifetimes.

Stay put. If you're blessed enough to be inside the Ark right now, please don't leave.

 

[Beloved2018]

So what do you propose? Trad Catholics arm themselves and invade the Vatican?

No, But isn't there something in place to deal with disciplinary measures for Pope)s and bishops?

Grab Francis by the habit and expel him and his compatriots from St. Peters?

I wouldn't grab him by the habit. They ought to be stripped of their robes and grabbed by the ears.

Maybe we lynch them from the obelisk?

A good spanking never hurt anyone. Remember St Nicholas....

Then who's choosing the next Pope?

God. The One who should always choose them. Right now I don't trust this bunch to choose the proper Eucharistic wine.

What then separates us from the protestant rebels of 500 years ago?

We have to get over that. The EO is not in communion either for the same reason.

Nobody regards this as trivial. But we choose our battles, we play the hands we're dealt and we do so shrewdly.

Idol endorsing is a pretty big deal. It got Israel kicked out of the Holy Land by God.

Maybe you're not understanding what I'm saying: we do our part to preserve timeless orthodox Catholicism and it'll outlast the heterodoxy and heresy. The Church survives through groups like the FSSP and the ICKSP and it survives in the Bishop Schneiders and Cardinal Burks and Taylor Marshalls and Michael Voris and it survives in the families and groups and cultures that resist what hierarchs are trying to change.

But they're not the supposed vicar of Christ.

Bad Popes come and go, they're not immortal, they die like every other human and they have their own judgment. What we do is make sure the truth faith is still breathing and ready to spring forth when the Pope who abused it passes on.[\Quote]
Then what's the point?

But Martin Luther is not a good example because regardless of his intentions, the fruit of his labor was rotten. Like they say, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

I beg to differ. But since this is the Catholic board, I'll let it pass

I'm going to start by worshiping God how he wants to be worshiped in spite of the contrarian views Francis espouses. But I'm not, nor will I be, a sedevacantist. And I'll NEVER go back to protestantism.

How do you know how God wants to be worshipped?

 

[Beloved2018]

My beliefs haven't wavered, with the exception of Church authority/papal supremacy. I desperately need leadership and I function best in a Patriarchial system. But right now, I have absolutely no trust in priests. I need Francis to be disciplined and removed. Not because I'm vindictive, but because I need order restored. I need authority and the papacy restored. I need to know that there is an answer for a heretical pope. Of all places, these Anti-Marys were carried into a Church bearing Mary's name. It's enough to make me cry.

This.

Hunker down. Keep receiving Christ. Keep praying the Rosary. Keep loving and running to Mary, our Mother. Keep following Christ. Keep praying. Keep the Faith.

I have a feeling a split is coming. Throwing those ugly idols into the Tiber was a first shot. The war is on.

Please keep the faith as best you can. I'll do the same. I have great hope that our Protestant, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodoxy, and Assyrian brothers and sisters might all come Home within our lifetimes.

Stay put. If you're blessed enough to be inside the Ark right now, please don't leave.

 

[Beloved2018]

Some former times were better. Some Popes were saints and martyrs. And Peter was asking about John's longevity in the verse you cite.

I personally find the seventh chapter of Ecclesiastes to powerfully call my attention, especially verse 10: "Do not say: How is it that former times were better than these? For it is not out of wisdom that you ask about this."

Troubled times, yes, but our call as believers is to abide in Christ. Everything else comes and goes. We are not promised to live in bliss; not even in the Church. As Jesus said to St. Peter: "What concern is it of yours? You follow me" (Jn 21:21).

 

[chevyontheriver]

Do we storm the Vatican or what?
It looks like the whole upper echelon needs to go.
It also looks like there needs to be some major ecclesiastical reforms.
I almost single handedly converted for Mary and the Papal See ( somewhere the Devil is laughing at me for the latter one).
I'm not missing the pre-Vatican II days. I'm missing the 16th century. When I converted, I thought I was going backwards. Gregorian chants anyone? Not the banal and certainly not anything idol endorsing.
Popes may have been scoundrels in the past, but recalling that fact isn't helpful. It just proves that at least in theory, he and his office can be a source of division (I.e protestants, EO).
The papal office and the claims associated with it are a big part of Catholicism, both historically and doctrinally.
I can't imagine that we're just suppose to sit here and not hold the current pope and his magisterium to account.
For the good of the Church and the papacy. Otherwise, how is the papacy and the magisterium not a joke?

We pray for the pope. A bad pope requires more prayers than a good pope. Some day we will have a different pope. And we need to be praying for that person too even now so when he is in office he can be a help and not a mess-maker.

We complain too. My wife reminds me that complaints need to be pushed uphill. Those are the people who should be listening. If need be, yes, we storm the Vatican and shout until they run away in fear. Then we pick up the pieces.

I so badly want to give up and go crawl into a hole. But we were born for this battle.

 

[Beloved2018]

I really did like the idea of the papacy in theory.

Jesus Christ is the way the truth and the life, there is no other way unto heaven but through Him. Period. He said it not me. The veil was torn at the cross, we have direct access now. When in doubt, seek Jesus, the Holy Spirit will be your guide. Our relationship is with Him, it's personal and it's 24/7........ The remnant who believes that will come through this even if the Holy Spirit slams the door shut on the RCC.

 

[chevyontheriver]

If we're sitting on our hands in a time like this, God will judge us accordingly. Do we care? Is the faith important to us?

Like the Watchmen of Ezekiel. If they call out the danger they save the people, but if they fail to do that, it's on them.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I really did like the idea of the papacy in theory.

It's still a fair theory. Just needs a different sort of pope who knows his faith. We used to have some of those.