Futurist Only So wait.. there's a dedicated altar and ritual sacrifices being performed again NOW?

[jgr]

Easy enough.. frame it in context. The key is who is He referring to by "this generation" right? The surface would suggest the current one He was talking to, which they all believed He would come again during their lifetimes, that much is apparent, but it did not happen, so there is no fulfillment.

So "this generation" refers to something else.

I postulate to you that this is a distinction from Matthew 16:28, there He did explicitly mean people who were standing before Him physically would be alive to see Him ascend into Heaven. That is, coming into His heavenly kingdom. Which I agree, Jesus is on the right hand of God the Father in heaven, He's on a throne. There is a heavenly kingdom that is not physical but spiritual. There will also be a physical earthly Kingdom delivered to Jesus after the 7th Trumpet and an eternal Kingdom on the new earth. Many diadems.

Now as to what "this generation" means, context is important.

Matthew 24:32-34


and earlier he defined what "these things" were, particularly the abomination of desolation. So who is "this generation"? Those who witness the abomination of desolation, and theoretically, those who witness the "fig tree" putting forth leaves. Some people, and mind you I'm not 100% on this one, but some people, allude this back to the fig tree that Jesus withered outside of Jerusalem, as a symbol for Israel withering which DID happen in 70AD, but now, If the Fig tree represents Israel, it started putting forth leaves in 1948 with the foundation of the state of Israel. That's a theory, that the baby boomer generation is the 'fig tree generation" that will see all end times prophecy fulfilled within their lifetime.

I don't say that's a 100% given, and only the abomination of desolation followed by the coming of Jesus in the clouds will ever confirm any such theory. I think it could be true, but it could also be 100 years from now, 200, 1000, who knows.

Having a kosher red heifer sacrifice, followed by daily sacrifices and a third temple definitely increases the likelyhood, so that is why we're watching.


But here's the real question.
Jesus was asked about signs of His coming.
Jesus answered with the abomination of desolation being the chief sign to look for.
Why would He give a sign that was almost 2000 years before His coming if you were right?

I answered your question. Your turn to answer mine.

Were the Jerusalem Christians wrong to heed Jesus' warning, flee, and survive?

 

[fwGod]

Didn't Paul do this in Acts 21, with James' blessing?

17After we arrived in Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly. 18And the following day Paul went in with us to James, and all the elders were present. 19After he had greeted them, he began to relate one by one the things which God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. 20And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law; 21and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. 22“What, then, is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come. 23“Therefore do this that we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow; 24take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law. 25“But concerning the Gentiles who have believed, we wrote, having decided that they should abstain from meat sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication.” 26Then Paul took the men, and the next day, purifying himself along with them, went into the temple giving notice of the completion of the days of purification, until the sacrifice was offered for each one of them.

The sacrifice was the shavings of their hair, not animal. The men are Gentile. Not Jews. Paul went with them because they couldn't go alone. And they didn't know how to offer a proper hair shavings sacrifice.

The observances of abstaining from meat sacrificed to idols, abstaining from eating blood and from food strangled and from fornication are all things that Gentile sinners did.

To Jews the Gentiles under Paul's wing going to the temple would be considered Noahites. That is the highest level that a gentile convert to Judaism that a gentile can get.

Paul preaches against the law, so neither he would sacrifice animals, nor have gentile believers participate in a strictly Jewish activity of sacrificing animals in the temple.

The men under the vow. That would be one of the Jewish observances that gentiles of that day could do as a sign of being followers of God's covenant ways. The vow is growing their hair then shaving it and burning it to represent the months of their life that they let the hair grow.

Study Noahites sometime. Study hairgrowth and burning it as sacrifice sometime. It'll keep you from looking untaught about such things and keep you from thinking the apostle Paul and James went against grace and went back under the law and were an example to gentile converts to reject grace and embrace the law.

When did the apostle Paul write the epistle to the Galatians? Calling them foolish for rejecting grace and putting themselves under the law?

You're making Paul and James hypocrites with your idea that 'sacrifice' means killing animals.

 

[Jamdoc]

I answered your question. Your turn to answer mine.

Were the Jerusalem Christians wrong to heed Jesus' warning, flee, and survive?

Sometimes prophecies may have a near fulfillment and a far fulfillment, or in other words, an event in the past may be an illustration of a real prophetic event that takes place in the future. Jesus gave us the illustrations of Noah, and Sodom and Gomorrah while referring to things that would happen at the end of days.
There are so many illustrations of Jesus in the Old Testament as well, you see Him everywhere even when you least expect it. I saw an illustration of Jesus in the end times in the book of Esther that I read yesterday of all places, a book that doesn't mention God even once.
So was 70AD possibly a near fulfillment, an illustration? Maybe. But it certainly wasn't the actual abomination of desolation as many things regarding that prophecy were not fulfilled. The temple was destroyed, it was not cleansed after 2300 evenings and mornings, it wasn't global in scale it was regional, there wasn't asteroid strikes or mountains falling into the sea, water turning to blood, demon locusts from hell, 60 pound hailstones, fire from heaven, there have been WORSE things since 70AD such as 2 world wars, 6 million jews killed in a holocaust, the black death, communist purges, when Jesus said the Tribulations would be unlike anything the world has ever seen and would never see anything worse than it afterward... and most important of all, Jesus didn't return like lightning coming through the sky, there wasn't a mass resurrection and people being caught up into the clouds to meet Him and we're not in a world without sin or death.

To consider 70AD a complete fulfillment of the Great Tribulations, is to consider what Jesus spoke of and John wrote to be exaggeration, embellishment, hyperbole or just plain fantasy.

 

[jgr]

Sometimes prophecies may have a near fulfillment and a far fulfillment, or in other words, an event in the past may be an illustration of a real prophetic event that takes place in the future. Jesus gave us the illustrations of Noah, and Sodom and Gomorrah while referring to things that would happen at the end of days.
There are so many illustrations of Jesus in the Old Testament as well, you see Him everywhere even when you least expect it. I saw an illustration of Jesus in the end times in the book of Esther that I read yesterday of all places, a book that doesn't mention God even once.
So was 70AD possibly a near fulfillment, an illustration? Maybe. But it certainly wasn't the actual abomination of desolation as many things regarding that prophecy were not fulfilled. The temple was destroyed, it was not cleansed after 2300 evenings and mornings, it wasn't global in scale it was regional, there wasn't asteroid strikes or mountains falling into the sea, water turning to blood, demon locusts from hell, 60 pound hailstones, fire from heaven, there have been WORSE things since 70AD such as 2 world wars, 6 million jews killed in a holocaust, the black death, communist purges, when Jesus said the Tribulations would be unlike anything the world has ever seen and would never see anything worse than it afterward... and most important of all, Jesus didn't return like lightning coming through the sky, there wasn't a mass resurrection and people being caught up into the clouds to meet Him and we're not in a world without sin or death.

To consider 70AD a complete fulfillment of the Great Tribulations, is to consider what Jesus spoke of and John wrote to be exaggeration, embellishment, hyperbole or just plain fantasy.

That didn't answer my question, so here it is again:

Were the Judaean Christians wrong to heed Jesus' warning, flee, and survive?

"Yes" or "no" will suffice.

The Judaean Christians recognized the fulfillments of Jesus' predictions, motivating them to act upon His warning, flee, and survive.

History corroborates these fulfillments, as recorded by Josephus and other historians.

 

[Jamdoc]

That didn't answer my question, so here it is again:

Were the Judaean Christians wrong to heed Jesus' warning, flee, and survive?

"Yes" or "no" will suffice.

The Judaean Christians recognized the fulfillments of Jesus' predictions, motivating them to act upon His warning, flee, and survive.

History corroborates these fulfillments, as recorded by Josephus and other historians.

Non believing Jews also fled through the tunnels and survived, they were not heeding warnings of Jesus.

So while nobody's ever wrong to heed Jesus,
I do not think Jesus' warnings had anything to do with 70AD.

 

[jgr]

Non believing Jews also fled through the tunnels and survived, they were not heeding warnings of Jesus.

Evidence?

Sources, dates, quotes please.

So while nobody's ever wrong to heed Jesus,
I do not think Jesus' warnings had anything to do with 70AD.

The Judaean Christians knew that His warnings had everything to do with 70 AD.

That is why the Judaean Christians acted upon His warnings.

They were right.

Fulfillments.

 

[Jamdoc]

Evidence?

Sources, dates, quotes please.



The Judaean Christians knew that His warnings had everything to do with 70 AD.

That is why the Judaean Christians acted upon His warnings.

They were right.

Fulfillments.

Do you have evidence that only Christians escaped the destruction of 70AD?

 

[jgr]

Do you have evidence that only Christians escaped the destruction of 70AD?

Eusebius (263 – 339 AD)

“But the people of the church in Jerusalem had been commanded by a revelation, vouchsafed to approved men there before the war, to leave the city and to dwell in a certain town of Perea called Pella. And when those that believed in Christ had come there from Jerusalem, then, as if the royal city of the Jews and the whole land of Judea were entirely destitute of holy men, the judgment of God at length overtook those who had committed such outrages against Christ and his apostles, and totally destroyed that generation of impious men” (Ecclesiastical History 3.5.3, 290’s AD).

 

[Jamdoc]

Eusebius (263 – 339 AD)

“But the people of the church in Jerusalem had been commanded by a revelation, vouchsafed to approved men there before the war, to leave the city and to dwell in a certain town of Perea called Pella. And when those that believed in Christ had come there from Jerusalem, then, as if the royal city of the Jews and the whole land of Judea were entirely destitute of holy men, the judgment of God at length overtook those who had committed such outrages against Christ and his apostles, and totally destroyed that generation of impious men” (Ecclesiastical History 3.5.3, 290’s AD).

I think more than Christians escaped is the thing
Scientists see how Jews fled from Romans.

 

[jgr]

I think more than Christians escaped is the thing
Scientists see how Jews fled from Romans.

Would some Jews also have recognized the legitimacy of Jesus' warnings and escaped along with the Christians before the onset of the war?

Quite probably.

But the historical record is of Jews being permitted to leave after the war had begun:

“Titus let a great number of them go away into the country, whither they pleased” (Josephus, Wars 5.10.1).

Regardless, there is nothing in either scenario that invalidates Jesus' warnings as being applicable to the events of that generation.

 

[TexFire316]

There is not a Temple yet. No Temple, no altar

 

[Jamdoc]

There is not a Temple yet. No Temple, no altar

The Temple institute has 2 altars built and dedicated. They're ready to be moved to the temple mount as soon as they want.

They claim here they don't even need the temple to perform the sacrilegious sacrifices they intend.
I think they're waiting for a flawless red heifer, which the temple institute is trying to produce and they have a handful of candidates of varying ages. One candidate in early august had a few hairs that were not red enough to be kosher but they think they'll darken soon.
That red heifer they think is necessary because of numbers 19. Once they sacrifice the red heifer and burn it to ashes, they mix the ashes with spring water and sprinkle it on the priests, then they are "clean" from the uncleanness of touching a dead body (which includes walking over an unmarked grave or being in a hospital when someone dies)

Then they can perform other sacrifices on the altar, which can be disassembled and reassembled within a day.

Will any temple or any altar or any sacrifices they do be of God? No, absolutely not.

Matthew 23:38-39

38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

so whatever temple or altar they build, any sacrifice they do, will be blasphemy, but prophecy does say that they will have the temple, and the sacrifices, and the sacrifices will be stopped. 2300 days from the daily sacrifices starting again, the temple will be cleansed. (Daniel 8:13-14)
What is meant by cleansed, I don't fully know, my guess is that Jesus will come to it and make it His, cleaning out all the filth and blasphemy of it, because in Matthew 23:39, He does lay out a condition in which they at the temple will see Him again, so the Jews would have had to have accepted Jesus and called out Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord.

 

[Berean Tim]

The Temple institute has 2 altars built and dedicated. They're ready to be moved to the temple mount as soon as they want.

They claim here they don't even need the temple to perform the sacrilegious sacrifices they intend.
I think they're waiting for a flawless red heifer, which the temple institute is trying to produce and they have a handful of candidates of varying ages. One candidate in early august had a few hairs that were not red enough to be kosher but they think they'll darken soon.
That red heifer they think is necessary because of numbers 19. Once they sacrifice the red heifer and burn it to ashes, they mix the ashes with spring water and sprinkle it on the priests, then they are "clean" from the uncleanness of touching a dead body (which includes walking over an unmarked grave or being in a hospital when someone dies)

Then they can perform other sacrifices on the altar, which can be disassembled and reassembled within a day.

Will any temple or any altar or any sacrifices they do be of God? No, absolutely not.

Matthew 23:38-39


so whatever temple or altar they build, any sacrifice they do, will be blasphemy, but prophecy does say that they will have the temple, and the sacrifices, and the sacrifices will be stopped. 2300 days from the daily sacrifices starting again, the temple will be cleansed. (Daniel 8:13-14)
What is meant by cleansed, I don't fully know, my guess is that Jesus will come to it and make it His, cleaning out all the filth and blasphemy of it, because in Matthew 23:39, He does lay out a condition in which they at the temple will see Him again, so the Jews would have had to have accepted Jesus and called out Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord.

One of the red Heifers should be ready if it's passable as of August 29th. The temple institute is quiet so far

 

[keras]

There is no way the Jewish State of Israel will build a new Temple.
It would instantly start a war with all the Islamic peoples.

Anyway, over half of the Jews are atheist's and the rest have synagogues to practise Judaism in.
It will be people from far away, who will build the new Temple. Zechariah 6:15

 

[Jamdoc]

One of the red Heifers should be ready if it's passable as of August 29th. The temple institute is quiet so far

Last update I saw from August said that the candidate had a few hairs that were not dark enough red, but they say there's a real chance that'll change over time. August 29th was also a Sabbath so I didn't expect them to perform an inspection much less a sacrifice

 

[Berean Tim]

Last update I saw from August said that the candidate had a few hairs that were not dark enough red, but they say there's a real chance that'll change over time. August 29th was also a Sabbath so I didn't expect them to perform an inspection much less a sacrifice

You're probably right. I watched the last video from Nelson Walters it was on the red heifer. I could have misunderstood some things. But he thinks they could sacrifice in secret to keep the government from stopping them

 

[jgr]

You're probably right. I watched the last video from Nelson Walters it was on the red heifer. I could have misunderstood some things. But he thinks they could sacrifice in secret to keep the government from stopping them

What about the whites of its eyes, and its teeth?

They aren't red.

It's a counterfeit heifer.

 

[Jamdoc]

You're probably right. I watched the last video from Nelson Walters it was on the red heifer. I could have misunderstood some things. But he thinks they could sacrifice in secret to keep the government from stopping them

Possible but considering how important it is I doubt they'd keep it a big secret, it'd be monumental to them if they pulled it off.

 

[keras]

What about the whites of its eyes, and its teeth?

They aren't red.

It's a counterfeit heifer.

It's funny alright! Taking any notice of what a fringe group of Jewish religious extremists are doing, is a sheer waste of time.
It will be the Christian peoples who will build the new Temple and will worship God in it. Isaiah 56:1-8, Zechariah 1:16, Revelation 11:1-3

 

[BobRyan]

You're not getting it. The Jews do not accept Jesus as the Messiah, they're waiting for a Messiah, .

But the Messiah came all the same... they are 2000 years too late