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Featured so, if Jesus forbade us making promises, explain marriage vows etc?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by WrappedUpinHisLove3, May 29, 2020.

  1. WrappedUpinHisLove3

    WrappedUpinHisLove3 Well-Known Member

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    So, if Jesus forbade us makng promises, how do we explain the belief amongst christians that marriage vows are ok? christian doctors swearing the Hippocratic Oath? Christians swearing on Bible in court?

    this is off the back of a thread i was reading earlier and one poster commented on how we should obey Jesus, and he mentioned that making promises is something Jesus forbade?
     
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  2. Aussie Pete

    Aussie Pete Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Numbers of Christians avoid taking oaths on the basis of Jesus' words. Yet Paul made a vow. I found this article to be helpful:
    Is it wrong for Christians to make vows or oaths?
     
  3. Radagast

    Radagast comes and goes Supporter

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    He didn't.
     
  4. Sketcher

    Sketcher Born Imperishable

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    He didn't forbid promises, he forbade theatrics that were meant to self-promote, or to potentially deceive.

    Jews in that day would swear in certain ways, and not consider them binding. Combining that with swearing by Heaven, or the Earth or Jerusalem was false piety on top of that. Imagine a churchier version of, "I swear upon the integrity of the Clintons that I'm giving you a fair price for this used car." Jesus would have none of it.
     
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  5. Dkh587

    Dkh587 David דויד Supporter

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    He was teaching against swearing falsely, even by the hairs on your head.

    He wasn’t teaching against swearing & keeping your promise.
     
  6. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    Christ did not forbid us from making promises. He condemned the frivolous swearing of oaths, because oath-swearing came from a place of insincerity. This doesn't mean that a Christian can't swear to tell the truth in a court of law, or swear themselves to their spouse. It means that we shouldn't have say, "I swear by the Temple in Jerusalem!" because we should be persons of integrity whose yes means yes and no means no.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  7. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    Bingo.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  8. WrappedUpinHisLove3

    WrappedUpinHisLove3 Well-Known Member

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    thanks this is interesting
     
  9. WrappedUpinHisLove3

    WrappedUpinHisLove3 Well-Known Member

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  10. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

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  11. John Helpher

    John Helpher John 3:16

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    Thanks for thinking of me, WUiHL.

    One of the most common themes when it comes to interpreting Jesus' teachings is that, when it comes to those teachings of his which require radical, dramatic change contrary to respectability, societal expectations, and especially personal desire, the resulting interpretations usally either end up promoting the exact opposite of what Jesus taught or become essentially inconsequential.

    Very few people simply believe Jesus. I agree that interpretation is necessary, but the way this works in practical life is that people almost always end up correcting Jesus with the phrase, "What he really meant was..." as though Jesus was somewhat of a buffoon who wasn't particularly good at articulating his thoughts.

    Here's the text from the KJV:
    Matthew 5
    33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:

    34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:

    35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.

    36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.

    37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

    Compare this to some of the comments made so far:

    Jesus says, "not at all", but Sketcher says what Jesus really meant was to avoid theatrics when swearing. It's okay to swear, so long as you believe the best about yourself when you're doing so; the opposite of what Jesus actually said.

    Nope. Another case of what he really meant. Poor Jesus; if only Dkh587 were there at the time; he could have let Jesus know about this "swearing falsely" caveat. But;, look at again at what Jesus said: "Not. At. All."

    Are people starting to see a pattern here? Jesus simply said don't do it; not at all, but all these people don't want to hear that. What he meant was don't swear with theatrics. Don't swear frivolously. Don't swear falsely. But that's not what he said. He said don't swear at all, for any reason. Only say yes or no.

    But, in the very same paragraph ViaCrucis also says:

    How convenient. Don't swear by the temple because you should have integrity, BUT you can swear in a court of law, (presumably because integrity is not needed in a court of law)? The logic doesn't follow. It is inconsistent, and that is because it is an issue of convenience. ViaCrucis has no problem accepting that he should not swear by the temple, because doing so is not something likely to inconvenience him. He's not a Jew and the temple is not part of his system of culture or respectability.

    But swearing in a court of law is very much a sign of system respectability. I mean, if you don't put your hand on a bible and swear to tell the truth, people might believe the worst about you? Yes is yes and no is no was okay for the land of Israel back in Jesus' day, but it's simply not good enough for our modern day courts of law!

    And finally, Aussie Pete promotes much the same sentiment, except he couldn't even be bothered to put it in his own words. The article basically says we should not make hasty, emotional swears, while Jesus says we should not do it at all. It makes a fairly weak attempt at justifying swearing using some Old Testament examples which completely ignores the fact that Jesus begins his prohibition against swearing by saying, "yes, the OT says you can swear, but I say..."

    That, "but I say" is so emblematic of the attitude most people take toward Jesus' teachings; they don't actually care about what he says. Jesus represents little more than a formulaic deity who must be "accepted" through various flowery speechs about him coming into their heart, but rarely (if ever) actually obeyed, which is something Jesus himself addressed even back in his own time when he asked supposed followers of his, "Why do you call me, Lord, but do no obey me"?
     
  12. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    Ah, you're right. St. Paul really screwed up when he made a Nazarite vow with the brothers from Jerusalem. And Christians are really messing up when they promise to tell the truth in a court of law, or when they pledge themselves in marriage to their spouse.

    I mean, it's not like Jesus might have been trying to teach us something important. Clearly the only thing Jesus was trying to do was give us rules to follow for the sake of having rules.

    It doesn't appear that you were following my logic at all.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  13. WrappedUpinHisLove3

    WrappedUpinHisLove3 Well-Known Member

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    sure ,i get what youa re saying but does that mean christians cant get married then? or become doctors? because both thoise things involve swearing vows? so what if a believer feels the call to become a doctor or psychiatrist?or what if they feel called to get married??? or if you need to be ina court case? i mean we canot live our lives avoiding these things so how do chrisatians do thesehtings and obey God???? since there are many married christians or married doctors etc theymust have found a way to get roundthe requiremewnt to swear oaths? or maybe there is a religious exemption?
     
  14. WrappedUpinHisLove3

    WrappedUpinHisLove3 Well-Known Member

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    i mean, none of the above apply to me. but purely hypothetically i am curious about this. also what about when you take out a loan and you pledge to pay it back a certian time? is that not also a promise?
     
  15. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    God is not in the business of giving us frivolous rules in order to make life harder for the sake of making life harder.

    Anyone who preaches that kind of religion has completely missed the point.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  16. John Helpher

    John Helpher John 3:16

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    I think vow, in this context, is a misnomer. It would be more accurate to describe it as a marriage commitment. Because marriage involves a deep, emotional, life-long connection it is easy to exaggerate what the commitment entails. In our modern day culture this emotional connection is hyped and exploited (usually for monetary gain via stories, movies, and marketing) so intensely that it's common for professing Christians to believe that they'll have the same relationship even in the Kingdom of Heaven after they die, though Jesus said that in Heaven there is no marriage.

    Marriage is like an analogy for the kind of relationship that God wants to have with us. It is personal, intimate, life-long, and faithful. Paul refers to this in Ephesians 5 where he spends a good deal of the chapter describing the faithfulness husbands and wives should have between one another and then finishes with, "This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church".

    This is further illustrated by the saints being referred to as the bride of Christ.

    This refers back to swearing where a doctor should only need to say yes to a commitment to try to help people. If the doctor is sincere then a swear will not make any difference. If he needs a swear to convince himself that he will act with integrity, then he probably shouldn't be a doctor.

    Same thing. This is just an outward appearance that is meant to give people a good feeling. What does swearing on a Bible actually achieve? It doesn't compel liars to tell the truth; there's no magic behind it. It's a demonstration of respectability meant to bolster reputation rather than to genuinely get at the truth of an issue. As Jesus said, if your yes is yes and your no is no, there should be no reason to make a spectacle of your integrity to onlookers.
     
  17. WrappedUpinHisLove3

    WrappedUpinHisLove3 Well-Known Member

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    this is the kidn of thing that just makes me feel am not getting into heaven so why bother trying??? i feel like crying in hopelessness. why try???? if God is a harsh rtaskmaster

    arent we meant to use our brains?

    jesus said if w love God, others, etc we have fulfilled the commnadments. i am not saying that means we dont obey but we have to live in this world. we ar e not of this world but we are called to live in this world.
     
  18. John Helpher

    John Helpher John 3:16

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    Not if it's clear to the lender that, while you agree to repay, you make no promise to do so. You're letting your yes be yes, which allows for change. The lender understands there is a risk that circumstances of whatever kind may prevent repayment of the loan and agrees to accept that risk. For example, if I borrow $100 from a friend on the understanding that I intend to pay it back at $10 a month but that if God calls me to some other place or activity which prevents me from making further repayments and the lender is okay with that possibility then there should be no problem as the expectations are clear on both sides without any need for promises against a future we have no control over. In other words, if the agreement is made, "God-willing" then that would be consistent with Jesus' teaching.
     
  19. WrappedUpinHisLove3

    WrappedUpinHisLove3 Well-Known Member

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    But these things are not optional. if you want to practie medicine you ahve to swear theoath, if you want to be a barrister you have to swear an oath as well.... you are not allowed to practice either of those professions in my country without doing those vows. unless of course christians can get an exemption? they prob could, maybe thatis how they do it?

    i mean yeah i agree the oaths dont mean anything- i personally thik they silly but surely obeying Jesus doesnt mean we cant practice certian good professions or ever be a witness or defendent in court of law???
     
  20. WrappedUpinHisLove3

    WrappedUpinHisLove3 Well-Known Member

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    oh but i mean a loan with a bank or somewhere official like a mortgage company? idont think friends ever require vows to lend money. but if you need a home to live in, you need to sign a contract? even if you rent you sign a contract?
     
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