So a part of an animal, adapts and devolves, repeatedly, one generation to the next...

Gottservant

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Hi there,

So the thought experiment here is just to examine whether I understand the concept "adaptation" properly or not: say part of an animal adapts and devolves, under selection pressure, then not - one set of generations on, one set of generations off. The epigenome will make no attempt to manage how much of an evolution takes place? That the psychopathic emergence of nazi-Germany was in direct ignorance of the epigenome's capacity to respond to differing selection pressures, without blanket control, but individually?

You understand what I am asking right? Is there a right or an expectation, that the epigenome can cause to function, for the better survival of particular members of the species, that is, in distinction to the king of the species' development? The point is that if the adaptation occurs in part of an animal, then the animal's epigenome, is able to isolate where the adaptation is occurring and in connection with "what" (the selection pressure). I'm not being fanciful, say an animal develops stronger legs for walking through tar, but the tar is only there seasonally on some years and off others, the rest of the time it is firm and not hard to walk on - wouldn't you expect the epigenome to develop a response to the tar itself? To avoid going near the tar without stronger legs?

You might say that it's possible to believe in Evolution, without the notion that it has been discovered. It being discovered has no immediate value, that saves it from a known predator - there is nothing that hunts down ignorant members of the species, for example. You either know it and move on, or you don't know it and you move on, there's no spiritual transition, to a more defensible Evolutionist position? I argued against this for a long time, looking where I could to see that yes certain choices have the hallmarks of the truly adapted, while others do not - but I have not found anything, in all that time; in fact, I have more or less been told there's no point to looking for that - just not with a reason given, but "we haven't found it, yet".

I don't know how it is you identify, with Evolution, is basically the problem - there are no square holes for square Evolutions. In Christianity, we say "what you believe about yourself, has to be at some point put in the past" not because we reject the past, but because we believe you can move beyond the past and refusing to move on hurts your relationship with God. Evolution sort of goes full pelt against this idea; you can never escape your past, the less you can cope with the pain, the less likely you will survive (its very bleak indeed). I have come as one who has put the pain behind him, and I have found that you basically have nothing but hubris to back up that the adaptations you have got will be enough, for you and enough of the generations to come that you don't need to think about it.

I really would like to change this divide. I have to go on to the next life, I don't want anything left unaddressed, when I could have dealt with it in the life that I have got. I'm not evolving anything in the end, the same way Jesus did not pray anything in the end. That means the two world views are going to clash and its the one that most understands what is asked of it, that will survive. Just like the tar that kills the weak, it can be identified and avoided - if I avoid you in Heaven, it will be directly as a consequence of the fact that I understand Evolution differently to you. My every breath I try to make myself grow in faith for the Evolution that is to come, not the one I have now - I'm not going to just hand over my success to the first fool that comes along and says he believes the same! Jesus said "do not cast your pearls before swine" (gospels, from memory) - that goes for Evolution other Evolutionists can't have.

Maybe I need to worry less, that I am going to be copied - there is ample room for people to adapt what they do and still be relevant to the Lord. It's just that the Lord was explicitly clear "they will say 'didn't we sing and dance in your streets, do wonders in your name' and I will say "Depart from me workers of iniquity, I never knew you, where you are from"" (gospels, from memory) Evolution doesn't save you from anything, to come, just giving a name to something that was already too much. This speaks to me, because I have struggled a long time with my memory of my family, what I should become to society, for their sake and mine - never has it occurred to me that I can simply take for granted what will happen next; but I have found the less I worry about how what evolves from me evolves, the stronger my grip on the Evolution I have already had, becomes.

It's a lot to take in at once, I get that; but I needed this, I needed to worth this out - thanks to you for being on the journey with me. Don't share your conclusions about Evolution, with the world - even reading this - just know that you have to share them with God: that is the ultimate conclusion.
 
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Shemjaza

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Hi there,

So the thought experiment here is just to examine whether I understand the concept "adaptation" properly or not: say part of an animal adapts and devolves, under selection pressure, then not - one set of generations on, one set of generations off. The epigenome will make no attempt to manage how much of an evolution takes place? That the psychopathic emergence of nazi-Germany was in direct ignorance of the epigenome's capacity to respond to differing selection pressures, without blanket control, but individually?

You do not understand the concept of adaptation in the context of evolution.

You seems to be shifting between populations of animals, individual animals and human cultural and political movements. These are all fundamentally different things with fundamentally different interactions.

Epigenetics is an aspect of genetics where the experiences of an individual can effect what their offspring inherit. But this is only an aspect, as the majority of the genome is simply passed on to the offspring unchanged.

Regardless these are not choices and they are not effected by beliefs or any kind of individual control.

You understand what I am asking right? Is there a right or an expectation, that the epigenome can cause to function, for the better survival of particular members of the species, that is, in distinction to the king of the species' development? The point is that if the adaptation occurs in part of an animal, then the animal's epigenome, is able to isolate where the adaptation is occurring and in connection with "what" (the selection pressure). I'm not being fanciful, say an animal develops stronger legs for walking through tar, but the tar is only there seasonally on some years and off others, the rest of the time it is firm and not hard to walk on - wouldn't you expect the epigenome to develop a response to the tar itself? To avoid going near the tar without stronger legs?

What you are describing is not epigenetics, it is lamarckian evolution.

The majority of the genome is not governed by epigenetics so this is not how adaptation occurs in species or individuals.

You might say that it's possible to believe in Evolution, without the notion that it has been discovered. It being discovered has no immediate value, that saves it from a known predator - there is nothing that hunts down ignorant members of the species, for example. You either know it and move on, or you don't know it and you move on, there's no spiritual transition, to a more defensible Evolutionist position? I argued against this for a long time, looking where I could to see that yes certain choices have the hallmarks of the truly adapted, while others do not - but I have not found anything, in all that time; in fact, I have more or less been told there's no point to looking for that - just not with a reason given, but "we haven't found it, yet".

Once again, the knowledge of and evidence for evolution have nothing to do with it's utility as a survival mechanism.

Not knowing how gravity works won't affect what happens when you fall out a window and not knowing about evolution has no effect on a species evolution.

I don't know how it is you identify, with Evolution, is basically the problem - there are no square holes for square Evolutions. In Christianity, we say "what you believe about yourself, has to be at some point put in the past" not because we reject the past, but because we believe you can move beyond the past and refusing to move on hurts your relationship with God. Evolution sort of goes full pelt against this idea; you can never escape your past, the less you can cope with the pain, the less likely you will survive (its very bleak indeed). I have come as one who has put the pain behind him, and I have found that you basically have nothing but hubris to back up that the adaptations you have got will be enough, for you and enough of the generations to come that you don't need to think about it.

Your ability to deal with your past or not has nothing to do with evolution.

I really would like to change this divide. I have to go on to the next life, I don't want anything left unaddressed, when I could have dealt with it in the life that I have got. I'm not evolving anything in the end, the same way Jesus did not pray anything in the end. That means the two world views are going to clash and its the one that most understands what is asked of it, that will survive. Just like the tar that kills the weak, it can be identified and avoided - if I avoid you in Heaven, it will be directly as a consequence of the fact that I understand Evolution differently to you. My every breath I try to make myself grow in faith for the Evolution that is to come, not the one I have now - I'm not going to just hand over my success to the first fool that comes along and says he believes the same! Jesus said "do not cast your pearls before swine" (gospels, from memory) - that goes for Evolution other Evolutionists can't have.

Individuals do not evolve over their lifespan.
Individuals do not adapt in an evolutionary context over their lifespan.
Individuals do have have an evolution.

Maybe I need to worry less, that I am going to be copied - there is ample room for people to adapt what they do and still be relevant to the Lord. It's just that the Lord was explicitly clear "they will say 'didn't we sing and dance in your streets, do wonders in your name' and I will say "Depart from me workers of iniquity, I never knew you, where you are from"" (gospels, from memory) Evolution doesn't save you from anything, to come, just giving a name to something that was already too much. This speaks to me, because I have struggled a long time with my memory of my family, what I should become to society, for their sake and mine - never has it occurred to me that I can simply take for granted what will happen next; but I have found the less I worry about how what evolves from me evolves, the stronger my grip on the Evolution I have already had, becomes.

I think you need to stop thinking about evolution.

It doesn't seem to make you happy and seems to fill a lot of your attention that you could put elsewhere to help your spiritual and intellectual development.

You don't have to worry about evolution, it's something that effects our species, not you as an individual.

It has nothing to to with your identity or beliefs.

It's a lot to take in at once, I get that; but I needed this, I needed to worth this out - thanks to you for being on the journey with me. Don't share your conclusions about Evolution, with the world - even reading this - just know that you have to share them with God: that is the ultimate conclusion.

I think you should focus on God as well.

Evolution in particular and science in general don't seem to appeal to your way of looking at the world and you don't seem to be able to absorb that you are fundamentally misunderstanding what evolution is and how it works.
 
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Larniavc

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So the thought experiment here is just to examine whether I understand the concept "adaptation" properly or not:
No.

That’s where I stopped reading.
 
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