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Snowflakes

Discussion in 'Creation & Evolution' started by JohnR7, Feb 25, 2007.

  1. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

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    They tell me that water is made up of two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen.
    Which is interesting because hydrogen is so explosive and oxygen fuels a fire.

    As more hydrogen and oxygen is linked together they begin to form a honey comb six sided shape.
    When this crystalizes or becomes frozen, then the snowflake is formed on this structure.
    They say that is why a snowflake always has six sides.

    They say no two snowflakes are alike. But I wonder, did snowflakes evolve?
    Where did the oxygen and hydrogen come from? Did they evolve from something else?
     
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  2. flatworm

    flatworm Veteran

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    You're right that hydrogen is explosive and oxygen fuels fire. Of course, a hydrogen explosion comes from its rapid combination with oxygen, leaving... water.

    So it's not really odd that water should be so stable when hydrogen and oxygen are so reactive- it's essentially "already burnt" hydrogen.

    No. They are not alive. We do know some things about why they take the shapes they do, though.
     
  3. lemmings

    lemmings Veteran

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    How can we get this into your head John. The ONLY objects that fit the scientific definition of evolution are imperfect replicators. Imperfect means that it contains some form of flaw, a person’s penmanship can qualify under this because there is no way that two ‘A’s’ will look identical. Replicators mean that it is somehow capable of coping itself; these are called Von Neumann Machines.

    Snowflakes do not reproduce and thus can not be subject to evolution.
     
  4. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

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    Actually, I was talking about h2o and some people say the body is made up of 70% water.
    So if water can not evolve, then where did the water come from that we are made up of?
     
  5. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

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    I said alike, not alive :)
     
  6. lemmings

    lemmings Veteran

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    Water is a byproduct in a chemical reaction between oxygen and hydrogen. The chemical reaction is because neither hydrogen, nor oxygen have full electron shells so they share their electrons in a covalent bond. Because oxygen has one more electron shell than the hydrogen atoms, the electrons stay near it longer. This results in a weak magnetic field where the oxygen is negatively charged. The magnetic fields interact forming hydrogen bonds between molecules making water both resistant to temperature change and also creating the ice crystals when frozen.
     
  7. flatworm

    flatworm Veteran

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    As lemmings said, only imperfect replicators reproduce.

    Where does the oxygen and hydrogen come from? Oxygen is a byproduct of nuclear fusion left over from a star. Our current sun is, IIRC, a third-generation star. Hydrogen formed spontaneously from the cooling of a proton / electron plasma.

    You don't actually think ice crystals and water present a problem for evolution, do you?
     
  8. thaumaturgy

    thaumaturgy Well-Known Member

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    You know what's really freaky? A crystal of ice has lower entropy than liquid water! I wonder how that happens! I mean "Creationism Second Law" wouldn't allow for that (primarily because Creationists don't understand the Second Law).

    Of course the only thing I can assume is that

    each ice crystal, each snowflake is a special creation by God. They cannot possibly exist by "natural" reasons so God is making them.

    Of course the real problem is that God didn't make any crystal systems that had 7-fold symmetry (a mathematical impossibility, even for God) and we all know 7 is God's number and 6 is the devil's. But sadly ice crystals form in the hexagonal (evil) crystal system.

    The least God could have done is make them monoclinic with a generally hexagonal prismatic shape, so they wouldn't be hexagonal anymore.

    Well, God does work in mysterious ways.
     
  9. Upisoft

    Upisoft CEO of a waterfal

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    It depends on the meaning you put in the word "evolve". If you put the meaning from theory of evolution, no they don't evolve because they're not alive nor they reproduce themselves.

    If you mean "make more complex structures from more simple", then yes, they "has evolved". First one needs oxygen and hydrogen to make water. While hydrogen is pretty simple (usually its nucleus is only a single particle -- proton), that is not the case with oxygen. Typical oxygen atom has 16 particles within its nucleus. So we need hydrogen to "evolve" into oxygen. That is what stars do, usually at the end of their life cycle. They create all kinds of elements just before or while exploding in a nova or supernova. We are all made of star dust.
     
  10. CACTUSJACKmankin

    CACTUSJACKmankin Scientist

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    It's not an unfair question, it just has nothing to do with evolution. There are several hypotheses as to how water got here, comets and ice meteorites are probably the best explanation. Humans, like all animals, are essentially fertilized and develop in water. Any water we get after birth we take in by eating, drinking, and even taking in small amounts of moisture from the atmosphere.
     
  11. FishFace

    FishFace Senior Veteran

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    Why is that particularly interesting? I mean, it is interesting that hydrogen is explosive, (not so interesting that oxygen is required for combustion, since combustion, last time I checked, is defined as an exothermic addition of oxygen) but you imply that this interesting in relation to water.

    Sort of. Water exists in discrete molecules of two hydrogens bonded onto a central oxygen. These molecules then undergo weaker (but nonetheless relatively strong) bonding to each other (for the interested, this is because the oxygen atom attracts electrons away from the hydrogens, so the molecule ends up with a negative charge at one end, and a positive at the other. Opposite charges attract, so the positive bit of one molecule is attracted to the negative bit of another)

    This is all dodgy ground. They can be said to evolve, but not in terms of Biology. They do not reproduce, so the Theory of Evolution is irrelevant, here.

    However, these days evolution also means a gradual change of some kind. In this sense, Oxygen evolved as part of the (IIRC) CNO cycle in massive stars. Hydrogen has pretty much been around forever. Only in the extremely early life of the universe (I'm not cosmologist, but I expect we're talking less than a second after the Big Bang) was there no hydrogen - it's formed from a proton (which in turn is formed by three quarks, which ones I forget) and one electron. Quarks and electrons are, to our knowledge, fundamental particles - they cannot be split any further.
     
  12. Edx

    Edx Senior Veteran

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    Oh John. Oh John. Oh John.

    *shakes head*
     
  13. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

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    That is the smoke screen. They call everything evolution. Everytime we show that evolution is not true, then they just come up with a new definition. That does not change the fact that darwinism was shown to be wrong and neo-darwinism is in the process of being falsified. Even if they want to call everything evolution.
     
  14. Edx

    Edx Senior Veteran

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    Uh no John, Creationists call everything evolution and look, you're doing it again right now.

    Well as far as I know the theory of Evolution has ALWAYS been biology, I dont suppose you have any references that show it was ever anything else?

    Now say that 100 times and close your eyes. It wont make it any truer, but you might believe it more and Creationists just gotta keep the faith at all costs.

    Recap: They = Creationsits. :thumbsup:
     
  15. Dragar

    Dragar Like the root of -1

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    Despite John's utterly absurd statements, I'll try and answer his questions.

    Where did hyrogen come from? Hydrogen first formed in the early universe, when things had expanded (and cooled) enough for electrons to recombine with protons and form hydrogen atoms. As they did so, photons were emitted - photons that can still be detected today (vastly cooled down), known as the CMB.

    Oxygen has a different story. It's created out of fusion reactions in stars, either during nuclear fusion or in a supernovae event. Our solar system is the result of the remnants of a supernovae - we are quite literally composed of the same material that once made up a star.
     
  16. RealityCheck

    RealityCheck Senior Veteran

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    Are you trying to get another post referred to FSTDT?
     
  17. And-U-Say

    And-U-Say Veteran

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    Who is they? Only creationsists call everything evolution.
    Examples? Who is we? Creationists? What do you mean by "show"? Is there any evidence for this "show"?

    I don't think there are new definitions, seems more like refinements.
    Incomplete is not the same thing as falsified. Newton's laws were not falsified, they where shown to be incomplete. You may want to study up on this a little more.
     
  18. Molal

    Molal Nemo Me Impune Lacessit Supporter

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    John, your OP has the clarity of mud.

    You need to define the word evolve (since it is clear you do not use it in a scientific sense).

    What do you mean by wanting to know where H and O2 came from? Do you mean how the elements were made? Or do you mean how they came to be on earth as H2O?

    Why do you find it interesting that hydrogen is combustible and oxygen fuels a fire? Which is actually incorrect - since FUEL fuels a fire and oxygen is the oxidiser, not the fuel.

    Alternatively, you need to define what you mean by fuel.
     
  19. Molal

    Molal Nemo Me Impune Lacessit Supporter

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  20. Wiccan_Child

    Wiccan_Child Contributor

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    To what? What on Earth could colloquial use be screening?

    Except... you haven't. Ever. If I (and the rest of the forum) have missed it, please, do so now.

    Show me Darwinism's refutation. PLEASE.

    :help:
     
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