Sister Wives - can we talk bout it?

DZoolander

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What gets me is how the guy is ok with his part in creating the drama/dysfunction between the women...and also adopts the attitude that they need to "work through it".

What I'd like to see is a series where the roles are reversed - and all of the polygamous men are married to a single woman...So - she has like 4-5 husbands. Then make sure the 5th one is just huge in the pants and they all know it...and see how that pans out with the insecurities of those men. lol
 
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Tropical Wilds

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What do you find wrong with their marriage? Did I miss something?

First off, I really hate that they file taxes as a religious institution and claim their kids as parishioners. That strikes me as highly unethical... Secondly, aside from creating the children, the father doesn't take a particularly active role with them, especially the little, littles, and the girls. Thirdly, I don't find his behavior towards her to be all that great. A lot of times, he talks to her like a child. I don't think he does it out of malice, but I don't see their dynamic as one that most people here would be happy to have, Christian or not. It seems like a lot of what goes on in their life, their marriage, with their kids (despite his passive parenting), are all choices made for her by him, not something they enter into together.

Beyond that... The last 2-3 kids that she was pregnant with lead to serious, often times deadly conditions for her and the baby... But he still acts in a way that disregards that, advocating that he will continue to produce children as it's "God's will." I just don't see it as an act of respect to tell your spouse, who's stillborn a child, who had side effects that kill as many women as it doesn't, who's been told she's taking her life into her own hands by having more kids, that he wants to still have more kids because his faith dictates that's how it's Godly to live. I mean, his wife is in the hospital, she just had a premature child, she's got all sorts of issues as a result of it, but he has scooted over to the "Today" show (with the older kids) to talk about how blessed he is and how this is just a trial by God and not a deterrent to having more kids? I'm sorry, but I don't find there to be a lot of respect in that.

The quiverfull lifestyle, not for me. Obviously. And I don't dislike them for that choice. It is their choice, and if he wants to impregnate his wife with her blessing, that's their business. But I don't see the respect in it. Yes, they're debt free now, but they were doing this lifestyle under foodstamps and social benefits for a time, and they're still reaping the benefits of the government for this by filing as a church. I just don't agree with that at all. And a lot like the people here are wondering how it's possible to have one husband meeting the emotional needs of 3 wives, I wonder how two parents meet the emotional needs of 20 children, especially when the father is a passive parent, the mother is only one person, and the children are "assigned" to older kids to care and mentor for them upon their birth as a means of helping out mom, who's got so much to do already, and who may get pregnant again at any moment.

I honestly think that the idolizing of them and their marriage is the symptom of people who aim too low in their marital aspirations... He provides financially, he doesn't have a problem with inappropriate content, he doesn't drink, go to bars, womanize, and he wants to serve God, and he says he honors his wife. Like "Sex in the City" says, he's great on paper. But the fact that his behavior and treatment of his wife is less-than-perfect and respectful, that he acts quite selfishly quite often (45 min - 1 hr on THAT hairstyle, laughing about his wife not getting time to maintain herself while he preens in front of every mirror he crosses like he's part roadrunner? REALLY?), that he's not hands-on with the kids leaving her to carry quite the burden in this lifestyle choice, and he spends as much time away as he does around (even if it's not for bad reasons on the surface)... I don't see him as a great partner or husband, and not the type of person we should seek out as a great husband. They very much have a dynamic of "I do the thinking, you deal with the kids." Many times, she seems quite passive towards this lifestyle, and I wonder if she, or others like her, aren't as trapped in these roles as are the women who're pushed into polygamy.
 
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JRSut1000

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There are many who actually choose this lifestyle (maybe we can create a spinoff thread??) of quiverfull from conservative evangelicals to traditional Catholics and fundamentalist Mormons (and needless to say other cultures/religions such as Islam and others) and they seem to LOVE the lifestyle. Maybe it's just a case of cognitive dissonance for many. They tell themselves that because they are doing the right thing, it's naturally enjoyable. I don't know.

I have been on the fence about the moral aspect of childbearing and birth control. I'm coming to the conclusion that if you are content having a bunch of children AND able to provide for them and love them, then have at it. If people are going to be populating the world, it should be the people who love God. But at the same time, not everyone is able to have children and I don't mean fertility issues, I mean they don't have the finances or the mental/emotional capacity it takes to raise children. Again, this is a fine line because anybody can come up with the excuse 'I'm just not cut out to have kids' and it can be for very selfish reasons or simply not giving themselves enough credit that yes, they can be great parents.
 
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JRSut1000

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In returning to polygyny, while I like to have an open mind these days, emotionally I don't see how it can be beneficial to either the man or the woman.

For the man, it means a lot more responsibility to love multiple women and to deal with their mood swings (the understandable as well as the absurd) and what about all those kids? That's a big financial burden. But as I learned in SW, the women also have jobs. Which to me, rather goes against traditional values for women anyways. Isn't it more traditional for women to be SAHMs?

Leading into the women, they have to have jobs, they have to watch thier kids, they have to share their husband. They have to avoid cat fights as much as possible.

Not to mention fear and prejudice from outsiders!

Okay, to be fair I have to mention the benefits of polygyny from what I saw on SW. Having a big family can be nice. It's like having a husband AND sisters at the same time. There isn't as much pressure for the wife and husabnd to be 'each others world' as there is in typical marriage in our society. Also for many mothers, it can be hard to do anything whilehaving to mind the kids. It can be nice to break up the responsiblities. Another mother can pitch in when need be and then she can take a break and the other mother(s) can pitch in whether its kitchen duty or watching the kids. Also in a more cultural sense, this polygyny thing might have worked out well for widows or for women with children so tat they can be protected under a man's name. It was a kindness to take a woman in. I remember a passage in the Bible that said when hard times come, 7 women will flock to one man and say 'can we marry you?' (Okay so I'm really paraphrasing here) It sounds disgusting to us, but in that culture it was charity of sorts and the man rather benefited as well. And I dont just mean sexually.

So in today's culture, is polygyny the ideal? No, probably not especially in our society. Can it ever work and not be considered sinful? Yes, I honestly think so.
 
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Lazydaisy67

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Why is it impossible to think that Mrs. Dugger WANTS to have that many children? You make it sound like if a woman has a big family it's her husbands idea and not hers. There are TONS of women who LOVE having lots of kids and ENJOY taking care of them. They don't see it as a burden, or abuse, or taken advantage of in any way. Leave them alone already!
 
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Tropical Wilds

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There are many who actually choose this lifestyle (maybe we can create a spinoff thread??) of quiverfull from conservative evangelicals to traditional Catholics and fundamentalist Mormons (and needless to say other cultures/religions such as Islam and others) and they seem to LOVE the lifestyle. Maybe it's just a case of cognitive dissonance for many. They tell themselves that because they are doing the right thing, it's naturally enjoyable. I don't know.

I have been on the fence about the moral aspect of childbearing and birth control. I'm coming to the conclusion that if you are content having a bunch of children AND able to provide for them and love them, then have at it. If people are going to be populating the world, it should be the people who love God. But at the same time, not everyone is able to have children and I don't mean fertility issues, I mean they don't have the finances or the mental/emotional capacity it takes to raise children. Again, this is a fine line because anybody can come up with the excuse 'I'm just not cut out to have kids' and it can be for very selfish reasons or simply not giving themselves enough credit that yes, they can be great parents.

If that's the lifestyle somebody chooses, that's certainly their business. As you said, and I said earlier, as long as they can support what they create, then I really don't care.

Like I said, though, just as some fear of the indoctrination of the women who enter into plural marriages, I worry about the same for those who are in these types of quiverfull relationships. The potential for abuse is so high. I mean, I wonder if the Duggar woman told her husband "I don't want to do this anymore, I want to either abstain or go on birth control" if he'd be supportive of that, or if he'd see in her somebody who's sinning. As a person, we have the right to, when we're told our health/life is at stake, raise our voice and direct how we want to go about our lives in a safe manner. I worry that, in the worst of the worst situations, there is no choice. It's just duty. The idea that if you and/or your children die in childbirth after you've had 20 kids is the fulfillment of God's will... I just don't buy it. And I don't think it's particularly honoring your spouse. And I worry that it's just a little too easy to accept the risks your partner has when it's not YOUR risk. I tend to think that she wouldn't have gotten pregnant 3 more times had the doctor said "Jim Bob, the chances are really, really high that, if your wife gets pregnant again, your testicles will explode and you will die" that she wouldn't have gotten pregnant again.

At least with a non-fundamental, non-religious polygamous arraignment (the type we've all unanimously agreed is wrong), a multiple spouse can walk away at any time. They pay the consequences legally, of course, but they can leave. But if you are in a lifestyle that carries inherent risks, like the Duggars are, if she were to die... There's no un-ringing that bell.

Again, I know that doesn't apply across the board. I've seen on this forum, actually where quiverfull couples stop the lifestyle when somebody is at risk, saying that the sanctity of life applies across the board, not just in creating it. I've seen them switch it from creating life, to taking in life, from foster care, adoption, etc. Which is fantastic and, I'd say, really adaptive. But the potential for abuse, especially in the true fundamentalist sense, is there and concerning.

And, regardless of the lifestyle, I don't see Jim Bob's behavior as a husband, or the treatment of his wife, as one that we should really hold up as the example of what marriage should be about. They could have 1 kid, 50, 500, or none. There's a lot of behavior that's like head-patting and "now now, dears" and "let the boys do the heavy thinking," and I don't think that's a dynamic that would breed a lot of happiness. I remember one event that they were supposed to do, but she wasn't feeling up to it and thought that it wouldn't be prudent to take a new baby into the cold. It was in one ear and out the other with Jim Bob, he said it was an obligation they had, and she smiled ear-to-ear, said OK, and bundled the baby up and went out for this event. She expressed reservations about doing interviews and it was the same thing, a verbal head pat and the modern-day equal of "don't worry your pretty little head about it, it'll be OK" and she just looked like she had a revelation and said "Oh, ok. If you say so!" went back to smiling and trotted off to do the interview. She makes a lot of excuses and has a lot of justifications for his odd behavior, none of which wouldn't be functional in a normal marriage without a spouse flicking off their free-will switch.

As far as the selfishness that may or may not go into the choice to have kids or not... Again, I won't judge. Sure, maybe the person who says they wouldn't be a great parent or can't afford to have kids would actually be a great parent or would have the finances to do it, but I'd rather err on the side of what they think their capabilities are as opposed to telling them they're selfish, hand them a kid, and go from there. There's no satisfaction in coming to that person later and saying "I told you so" and there's less coming to that person later and having them tell you "I told you so." Having kids is a deeply, deeply personal decision and I'm not going to tell anybody they are or aren't something for having kids. I think I'm a pretty awesome parent, but I also know my limitations... I think I'm a good parent to 3, but wouldn't be a great parent to 23. I'd hope that the general sentiment would be to respect that choice of mine as opposed to second guessing it.

Maybe she can be a great mom to 20, which is fine, which is why I support them in their choice to do what they're doing and I'm not inherently against their lifestyle. I have questions about it, but if it works for them and they are supporting them all, I don't care. Where I start to care is when it looks like this is a choice of one made for the both and the woman has no real option to say yes or no, or the kids are suffering in their basic needs. The latter isn't an issue for the Duggars to what I can see (though apparently the kids are pretty badly behaved as toddlers, but again, that's a mark of the toddler and not so much the parents persay), I just worry she's not in control of what is going on as she seems to be. When I see Jim Bob talking to yet another reporter with a big grin about this lifestyle, where she talks about the profound loss she went through with the death of a child, and Jim Bob says it was heartbreaking, but the door is open for more, and she just kind of sits there with a broken smile... Again, I just wonder. I don't think that he's that attentive a husband, and I'm certain he's not that attentive a dad.
 
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Tropical Wilds

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Why is it impossible to think that Mrs. Dugger WANTS to have that many children? You make it sound like if a woman has a big family it's her husbands idea and not hers. There are TONS of women who LOVE having lots of kids and ENJOY taking care of them. They don't see it as a burden, or abuse, or taken advantage of in any way. Leave them alone already!

Um, excuse me? Leave them alone? We're talking about the lifestyle choices that are being demonstrated on reality TV and our reactions to it... That's my reaction. It might not mesh with yours, but therein lies the beauty of a discussion forum. Since I don't disagree persay with their consenting lifestyle of the polygamists, other then his obnoxiousness and behavior as a man-child, should I demand that everybody "leave them alone already?" These people are on TV for the express purpose to have their lives discussed... And that's what we're doing.

And I think I've made it pretty clear that if she's a consenting, a TRULY consenting participant, and they can support what they're creating, then I don't care if she has 5 kids or 50 kids. I said I've seen her not express zeal of her latest pregnancies or her lifestyle to the degree which her husband has and continues to do so, which is a simple observable fact. In which case, if she has reservations, they should stop, and I do genuinely worry that she may not have the voice to make that decision if that was her wish. But if not, then rock on, I hope she has all the kids she wants and can sustain, I hope she continues to get proper medical care to make sure she's safe, and I wish them nothing but bunnies and butterflies for the future. Their lifestyle, while not my own, if it's something they want to sustain is none of my business, reality show or not.

I get that people enjoy lots of kids and like taking care of them... I love lots of kids and I love taking care of my son and my stepsons. Do I want 17 more just like them? No, can honestly say I don't, but I still love taking care of them and enjoy the process of watching them grow up. I don't think because they're willing to have that many kids that there proving they enjoy having kids, having that many kids, enjoy raising them, or anything else... They have kids out of duty, not necessarily enjoyment. I'm sure they love them all, but I don't think their lifestyle is a statement of their love of children that's beyond what anybody else has with their kids.

It would be dishonest or disingenuous, however, to not explore that, like polygamy, this lifestyle can create some dynamics where abuse exists, where needs aren't met, and where there are participants who aren't so much willing as they are pushed into it and pushed to maintain it. Not saying that's the Duggars, I certainly hope it isn't, but I question a lot of his behavior.
 
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JRSut1000

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Part of me wants to say "well he's not the one who has to get pregnant and and push these kids out and take care of them all day long 24/7". Pregnancy and childbearing is definitely a sacrifice, but I do believe it's more a sacrifice on the mothers part because her body is completely sacrificed for the sake of pregnancy/childbearing/etc. And dont get me started on hormones which do play a part as well. Is it any wonder that she is not as thrilled as he is about pregnancy/childbearing when she's the one who has had to endure it over and over again? I dont care how much you love and enjoy kids, it DOES have an impact on a womans mind and body.
 
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JohnDB

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I seen this program. It was really kinda unique.

I too watched for "all those little signs" of different things. Especially with the children of the family.

I had to conclude that yes, this was a special family. (I knew other families when living in a more mormonized state)

The husband was really busy all the time...he never had a moment's peace to sit and watch a ball game or go hang out with the guys from his job or to just hang out with guys period unless it was his older sons. He was forever doing something for the children or the wives. I can see why Paul said for a deacon to have only one wife...because if he had more than one then he never would be able to do anything for the church.

The wives...they were sisters in a lot of ways. They played and laughed and fought just like normal sisters. I didn't see them abused or neglected or anything of the sort. Sure there was never enough money to go around for everything that they wanted...even some things that some wives I know consider to be normal expenses.

But the kids are always the ones that show up the faults of a family...and they were only showing unity and being respectful. (cept for the one girl who wanted to stay at a private school) One of the funniest scenes was where the kids were sniffing the markers because they had fruit smells. The dad comes by and gives them a lecture about doing drugs and stuff like that...the girls the whole time giggling because they knew drugs to be stupid and that their father didn't know about the special markers made for children with the smells.

I have a hard time claiming this sort of lifestyle to be a sin. All are adults and consenting. None of the ladies are being taken advantage of. The children are well behaved and doing well in school. The only thing different in these kids is that the older ones seem to be growing up a bit faster than most kids their age by taking on responsibilities for the younger ones. They all seem genuinely concerned for the family as a whole and look forward to the day when they can all be under one roof again. (as last I seen from the episodes I watched)

And as far as the sexual aspect of it...the Dad in all of this is no teenager any longer. His "ability" to please all of his wives is going to really diminish in the few short years to come...if not already. Sure, he had a new baby on the way...But I would dare say that his virility is going to be short lived here soon. Any guy, hen-pecked as much as he is, can't perform as much as he would need to in order to please a bunch of Peri-menopausal women as he is going to have to. It is simply part of the natural order of things. so I would dare say that these women truly love their sister wives and him very much...as well as all the children.
 
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JRSut1000

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Thank you for anotehr perspective on the matter JohnDB! Like I said, I"m trying to have an open mind about many things these days and to search matters out for myself both by observation and study of Scripture. My conclusion remains: Polygyny is NOT the ideal or 'Gods best', but if done with respect and charity (kindness/love) I dont think its a sin. Although I do agree with Paul, it's a lot easier to do ministry with 1 wife, so thus this is definitely advisable and proper.
 
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JohnDB

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Thank you for anotehr perspective on the matter JohnDB! Like I said, I"m trying to have an open mind about many things these days and to search matters out for myself both by observation and study of Scripture. My conclusion remains: Polygyny is NOT the ideal or 'Gods best', but if done with respect and charity (kindness/love) I dont think its a sin. Although I do agree with Paul, it's a lot easier to do ministry with 1 wife, so thus this is definitely advisable and proper.

Yep, I would agree too.

Also...polygamy seems really expensive. Avarice not being a part of this lifestyle in any shape, form, or fashion...it simply can't. There ain't ever gonna be enough to go around.
 
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Tropical Wilds

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In returning to polygyny, while I like to have an open mind these days, emotionally I don't see how it can be beneficial to either the man or the woman.

For the man, it means a lot more responsibility to love multiple women and to deal with their mood swings (the understandable as well as the absurd) and what about all those kids? That's a big financial burden. But as I learned in SW, the women also have jobs. Which to me, rather goes against traditional values for women anyways. Isn't it more traditional for women to be SAHMs?

Leading into the women, they have to have jobs, they have to watch thier kids, they have to share their husband. They have to avoid cat fights as much as possible.

Not to mention fear and prejudice from outsiders!

Okay, to be fair I have to mention the benefits of polygyny from what I saw on SW. Having a big family can be nice. It's like having a husband AND sisters at the same time. There isn't as much pressure for the wife and husabnd to be 'each others world' as there is in typical marriage in our society. Also for many mothers, it can be hard to do anything whilehaving to mind the kids. It can be nice to break up the responsiblities. Another mother can pitch in when need be and then she can take a break and the other mother(s) can pitch in whether its kitchen duty or watching the kids. Also in a more cultural sense, this polygyny thing might have worked out well for widows or for women with children so tat they can be protected under a man's name. It was a kindness to take a woman in. I remember a passage in the Bible that said when hard times come, 7 women will flock to one man and say 'can we marry you?' (Okay so I'm really paraphrasing here) It sounds disgusting to us, but in that culture it was charity of sorts and the man rather benefited as well. And I dont just mean sexually.

So in today's culture, is polygyny the ideal? No, probably not especially in our society. Can it ever work and not be considered sinful? Yes, I honestly think so.

I learned a long time ago to not judge the dynamics of people's relationships. The polygamous couple I knew were quite happy and, last I knew, were still together and happy as could be. I know people who are married, in the full knowledge that one, the other, or both go outside to other partners for sexual satisfaction, and that works for them. I know of couples where one has a long-term mistress/other man, both know (or at least suspect it), but don't challenge it. I know that marriage and the dynamics of it change even from country-to-country. For example, when my grandmother died very, very young, leaving my grandfather with two young girls to raise, I don't think she was even cold in the ground yet when he packed up my mother and her sister, went back home to Germany, and went to get a new wife... Not like he went to date, but he went back to my grandmother's family for a replacement. If my grandmother's sister was unmarried, she would have married my grandfather. As she was, the duty fell to my grandmother's best friend. They got married, she came to the US, and they were married, happily I might add, in a marriage that from the onset isn't something I can even picture myself in (not to mention the dynamic of it) until they both died. There's no denying that, through time, the execution of marriage has changed a ton.

To be fair, I don't discount that there are women who either don't need the constant, one-on-one attention to be happy in a marriage, or who genuinely enjoy the idea of having a unit that includes another woman who understands the same man in the same way. There are women who are content in having time to themselves, more time for family or kids, who are happy to have another woman to around to be successful in the home in ways that they aren't. Like I said before, I just want to make sure everybody involved agrees to be involved. They're not pressured or forced into it, it's not some sort of sex trafficking, these are still people and this is still a relationship/marriage, no matter how non-traditional. In the end, as somebody who doesn't participate in it, it's not up to me to understand it as it is for them or anybody else to understand my relationship.
 
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JRSut1000

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Some of the dynamics you mentioned I do see as sinful, but to me polygyny is up in the air and definitely debatable rather than a closed matter. Would I like to see it become the norm in our society or any society? No, certainly not. As I've said, not ideal situation. But can it work in some situations/circumstances, yes I think so.
 
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Hetta

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Yep and I agree with you. I personally wouldnt be able to do that. I tend to think ALL woman would feel that way and desire 100% intimacy but apparently I'm wrong in that assumption or else there wouldnt be women choosing of their own accord to enter a polygamist marriage.
But that is my whole point in emphasizing the cult like 'families' in which these women are raised. If you are raised from childhood to believe that polygamy is the norm, then you do not know any different. It's what your mother did, and your aunt, and the family next door is polygamous too. They don't see an alternative, and they are often married off young, before they can even experience an alternative.
 
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JRSut1000

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Not all polygamous women experienced polygamy in their own family growing up. Some choose to do this because they desire that dynamic (I've done some research) and it's new and exciting. Some of these women of course will discover that they arent cut out for it at all, in fact I'd venture to say probably many will have huge doubts once they experience it for themselves. But again, there are women who choose to do this because it is what they truly want (whether they grew up in this dymanic or not).
 
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Hetta

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Well I'll tell you something about the daughter of a friend of mine, who has opted for a polygamous marriage to "keep" her wandering husband. Rather than have him secretly have an affair, and possibly leave her for this other woman, they moved her in to live with them. Words fail me at this point. I think it's the most terrible idea ever. If you keep on at that rate - so, perhaps the new s/w meets a guy other than the other gal's husband and is attracted to him, so let's move him in too .. it sounds like a commune, it sounds like 'free love' and hippies, and that part of history just makes me *smh*.
 
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Hetta

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What gets me is how the guy is ok with his part in creating the drama/dysfunction between the women...and also adopts the attitude that they need to "work through it".

What I'd like to see is a series where the roles are reversed - and all of the polygamous men are married to a single woman...So - she has like 4-5 husbands. Then make sure the 5th one is just huge in the pants and they all know it...and see how that pans out with the insecurities of those men. lol
That would be funny to see the tables turn. ^_^ I cannot imagine those men being told to "work together" and "share" the woman. My goodness. Someone would kill someone.
 
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Tropical Wilds

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Some of the dynamics you mentioned I do see as sinful, but to me polygyny is up in the air and definitely debatable rather than a closed matter. Would I like to see it become the norm in our society or any society? No, certainly not. As I've said, not ideal situation. But can it work in some situations/circumstances, yes I think so.

Some of those situations I see as not idea at best, sinful within the confines of certain faiths for sure, but in a secular application, not my place to really say anything one way or the other. I wouldn't want to be in it, for sure, but for those who don't operate with a faith that dictates it as sinful, again, I default to the idea of consent and safety and leave it at that. In the end, every crazy marital dynamic that could exist probably does. I leave the functionality of it to the participants.
 
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