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Sin

Discussion in 'Non-denominational' started by dependingonhim, Apr 3, 2002.

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  1. dependingonhim

    dependingonhim New Member

    42
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    Does the Bible teach that a Christian can live completely above any sin, any failure in his life?

    Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. And ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen Him, neither known Him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as He is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for His seed remaineth in him, and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (1 John 3:4-9)
     
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  2. Nick_Loves_Abba

    Nick_Loves_Abba Bulls On Parade

    +45
    Christian
    Do you mean to ask is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning after salvation? If so I have a few scriptures here.

    Job 9:20 If I justify myself, mine own mouth shall condemn me: if I say, I am perfect, it shall also prove me perverse

    Phi 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

    I believe we are to aim for perfection, but actually gaining perfection is only possible I think, once we have entered into paradise.
     
  3. ZiSunka

    ZiSunka It means 'yellow dog'

    +276
    Christian
    Doesn't the Bible also say that whoever says they don't sin makes God a liar?

    How about Isaiah? Didn't he say, "We all, like sheep, have gone astray?"
     
  4. Dave Ulchers

    Dave Ulchers Active Member

    767
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    Saying and doing are two different things on both sides of the fence!
     
  5. Martin

    Martin Senior Veteran

    +12
    Christian
    Married
    We do fall into sin, even after salvation and they must be confessed to God, but if you have a living relationship with Jesus that was birthed at the cross, then He has paid for all your sins, past, present & future. So we no longer continue to live in sin, but we do fall into sin... :holy:
     
  6. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +59
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    It teaches you live without sin nature..but not without sin. You get better at not sinning (sanctification) but until you leave this earth, you will sin.
     
  7. Blessed-one

    Blessed-one a long journey ahead

    +170
    Protestant
    Single
    yeah, and that's why we ask God for forgiveness! and keep trying relying on the power of the Holy Spirit to resist sin.
     
  8. dependingonhim

    dependingonhim New Member

    42
    +0
    After I put this thread in I noticed there had been another one on "should we confess our sins" posted in February. The reason I wanted to post this question was because of a response that I received on an earlier post using the scripture from 1 John 3:9 and stating that a Christian cannot sin. I noticed in the other thread there was also a response that believes we can live without sin . I wanted to see what the rest of you had to say about this.

    My Bible notes say the following regarding to 1 John 3:9: "No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

    As born again Christians, we do have a new nature, but we also still have the old one. That is why the scriptures tell us to examine our Christian walk in the light of God's Word. The new nature does not commit sin - cannot sin. The old nature does sin any time we let it. As a child of God, we will keep under the old nature by not yielding to the desire of the flesh; or the old nature will keep us under, and we will live a defeated Christian life.

    This is so important for us to understand because if we do not believe we are in a battle (our Spirit against our fleshly desires) we are not going to fight!

    "For the flesh set its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please" Galatians 5:17
     
  9. jrmorganjr

    jrmorganjr Paladin

    310
    +0
    Methodist
    US-Republican
    Yes, I've had this 1 John 3:9 (I think it's Dave_Ulchers' favorite verse, and I really (grudgingly) appreciate that he made me aware of it) thrown in my face quite a bit lately around this topic. I've done a little digging, and here's my take.

    You immediately have to square it with 1 John 1:7-10 (esp. 8). Note that it is in the context of "walking in the light", not talking about a "pre-saved" past, that is we have sin, not had :
    1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
    1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
    1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
    1Jo 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

    Same author, same book! This pretty much sews it up for me - we continue to sin after being reborn. Game over.

    Another helpful thing I read was that the tense of the verb being translated for 1 John 3:9 really implies a translation more along the lines of "continues to practice a lifestyle of sin" and "he cannot be in the sin lifestyle". Which I compare to the recent posts, that we have an old and new nature both. The new wars with the old, the new cannot practice the sin lifestyle. So what am I saying? That the old self within you will continue to sin until death (or Christ's return), but the reborn self does not sin, and is ever grieving / repenting at the old self's intermittent mastery of the whole self's will.

    Another way to look at it is that part which one has yielded to the Holy Spirit cannot sin, this "reborn" self is sinless. The parts the self hasn't yielded, plus the demands of the corrupt body, continue in sin.

    Oh to be remade in his likeness! I can't wait to be perfected! The intimacy, the sheer holiness!
     
  10. soulsisterclaire

    soulsisterclaire JESUS DIED FOR YOU & ME

    578
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    Thank you for putting it this way, it has been a great help to me. I struggle with my flesh all the time and this reminds me to do battle with it and NOT give in!

    Praise God! :clap:
     
  11. Dave Ulchers

    Dave Ulchers Active Member

    767
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    :sigh: I don't undestand why people can't see the difference between saying and doing.

    If I said:
    a) Anyone who is mute can not talk.
    b) Anyone whos says they are mute is a liar.

    You would seem to conclude that a mute person actual can talk. :rolleyes:
     
  12. jrmorganjr

    jrmorganjr Paladin

    310
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    Methodist
    US-Republican
    Hi Dave_Ulchers!

    This syllogism (?) of yours doesn't make sense to me. Could you clarify? You seem to be saying I'm equivocating two concepts/verbs/something in my analysis. Could you explain what you mean?

    You do disagree, though, right? What's your interpretation of 1 John 1:7-10? Are you going to maintain that he is talking about "pre-saved" sins?
     
  13. Dave Ulchers

    Dave Ulchers Active Member

    767
    +0
    Oops, there was a typo in my post. I hope that clarifies things.
     
  14. jrmorganjr

    jrmorganjr Paladin

    310
    +0
    Methodist
    US-Republican
    OK, now I understand your logic in an abstract way. Could you explain to me specifically how it applies to the text at hand? I don't want to make any assumptions on what you're saying.

    Thanks -
     
  15. Dave Ulchers

    Dave Ulchers Active Member

    767
    +0
    I'm just saying one should consider it entirely possible that if these two statement are true:

    a) A mute person does not speak.
    b) Anyone who says they are mute is a liar.

    Then there is no reason these two statements cannot be true:

    a) A child of God does not sin.
    b) Anyone who says they don't sin is a liar.

    It seems to me that neither statement (b) negates their respective statement (a). In fact you could easily combine them:

    (c) A mute person does not speak and does not say he does not speak.
    (c) A child of God does not sin and does not say he does not sin.

    And these sentences clearly make sense.


    I would put 1st John 8 & 10 in their larger context.
    I would suggest here that walking in darkness is a metaphor for sin. "There is no darkness in God" parallels to 1st John 3:5: "in God there is no sin."

    Repentance, that is, giving up sin and walking in the light, cleanses past sins.

    This is basically just a shorter restatement of the previous verse with the metaphor of light and dark removed, more directly addressing the issue of pride.

    And now this verse addresses the issue of pride as well.


    The traditional understanding takes into account the idea that man

    1) always has the potential for sin and needs to be aware of this.
    2) often will deny his sins, perhaps even to the point of prideful boasting.

    However, there is no way to make these verses mean that repentance is impossible (by grace), especially in light of the rest of 1st John and various other scriptures.
     
  16. jrmorganjr

    jrmorganjr Paladin

    310
    +0
    Methodist
    US-Republican
    Well, I don't agree with your analysis at all. Why would anyone say "we're not allowed to say we don't sin - if we do that, we sin", which is your conclusion. Doesn't make sense. It reads much more easily that sinning can continue after being reborn, and that Christ perpetually forgives it as we come to him in repentance. Repentance is never said to be a one time process, immediately followed by being reborn, never to be seen again!

    I do concur with your repentance isn't impossible (by grace) statement, but again, it's not a one timer. I like the two natures explanation much better. Have you been reborn, Dave? I only ask that to ask the follow up question - Since you are reborn, does that mean to you that you haven't sinned since that time?

    Thanks -
     
  17. Nick_Loves_Abba

    Nick_Loves_Abba Bulls On Parade

    +45
    Christian
    Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
    Mat 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
    Mat 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
    Mat 7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

    I'm reminded of this parable. To me, it compares two people. The builder who builds on rock and the builder who builds on sand. Let us compare these two people, aight -G-? ( :D )

    They are both, obviously builders. And both Obviously desire a home, and have the tools and suplies to build a home. Are we on the same page? Great.

    But here's where they differ. According to scripture, one was wise and was was unwise, or rather foolish. The wise one built his house on the rock, while the foolish one built his house on the sand. And in the end, the one who built his house on the rock, ends up with a house.

    Now here's what I make of it. Despite being foolish, the guy building his house on the sand, is still saved. He's as saved as the guy who build his house on the rock. (Although the guy who built it on sand I guess has his feet singed by the fires of hell). But, the guy who built his house on the rock has the rewards, while the one who built his house on the sand does not. This same passage says:

    Here, I see that the wise man is given some responisbility, maybe in the age to come by Jesus, because, he has 1) Heard what Jesus commanded and 2) Did what Jesus commanded. Yes, all who get into heaven will get the three crowns. (Crown of Glory, righteousness, and Life.) but the BIble also speaks of other rewards. It does not say what the rewards will be, but it does say that we will get other rewards. And I think scripture right here is telling us who will get those extra rewards. Those who listened, and those who did.

    :) (Gosh I keep saying this) I might be wrong. This is just my opinion after readin several books and scriptures on the subject. Go easy on me. I'm reading a book right now called When Christ Comes by Max Lucado, and I'm telling you, it has to be one of the most encouraging books I've ever read. It talks little about specifcs of the end, but tells us alot about what we have to look forward to as Christians. :) It's all biblically based too! I've read alot of Maz Lucado and he's a great Christian writer.
     
  18. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +59
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    I think a key word in that passage that ya'll have glanced over is "practice". check the greek and we can go from there.
     
  19. Dave Ulchers

    Dave Ulchers Active Member

    767
    +0
    Hebrews 5:8f
    "Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered; and when he was made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him, declared by God high priest according to the order of Melchizedek.

    About this we have much to say, and it is difficult to explain, for you have become sluggish in hearing. Although you should be teachers by this time, you need to have someone teach you again the basic elements of the utterances of God. You need milk, (and) not solid food. Everyone who lives on milk lacks experience of the word of righteousness, for he is a child. But solid food is for the mature, for those whose faculties are trained by practice to discern good and evil.

    Therefore, let us leave behind the basic teaching about Christ and advance to maturity, without laying the foundation all over again: repentance from dead works and faith in God, instruction about baptisms and laying on of hands, resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment.

    And we shall do this, if only God permits.

    For it is impossible in the case of those who have once been enlightened and tasted the heavenly gift and shared in the holy Spirit and tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to bring them to repentance again, since they are recrucifying the Son of God for themselves and holding him up to contempt.

    Ground that has absorbed the rain falling upon it repeatedly and brings forth crops useful to those for whom it is cultivated receives a blessing from God. But if it produces thorns and thistles, it is rejected; it will soon be cursed and finally burned."
     
  20. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

    +21
    Non-Denom
    2 poss explanations.

    1. Obviously the Christian still sins. But actually, the real me is my spirit that has been recreated in the nature of God. This part of me, which is the real me, which has the nature of God, cannot sin. "bcos His seed remaineth in me". So it is the flesh/soul part of me that sins, when they are not subject to the spirit.

    2. "cannot sin" means does not practise sin like there's no tomorrow.
     
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