Sin, Immorality and other Assorted Items

[SithDoughnut]

I was going to make this a specific thread, but I decided that would be boring and would exclude the vast majority of people here. Instead, I'm going to pose a very general question and see where we end up.

For this question, I am defining sin as actions which go against a certain set of external rules, while immorality is defined as essentially actions you believe are wrong, either personally or because of an external code of conduct. The question itself is as follows:

How does your belief system or philosophy view sin and immorality (as defined above)? What is the reasoning behind immoral or sinful actions being sinful/immoral? What are the consequences of committing these 'sins' (physically, mentally, spiritually, etc.)?

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

I think of external rules as a sort of necessary evil, whose positive influence barely outweighs the negative consequences:
on the one hand, they keep "morally unskilled" people in check and contribute to the socialization process; on the other hand, they can detract from the cultivation of personal insight and ethical reflection.

Think of external rules as a "connect the dots"-drawing, and of internal reflection as a Rembrandt, Vermeer or even Picasso. There are those who, for lack of the necessary talent, could never aspire to draw anything outstanding on their own. For them, the dots are a good guiding line, allowing them to end up with a nice picture in the end. But it's a great tragedy when someone who might excel at painting is weighed down by the dots and numbers - especially when those dots and numbers turn out to be superfluous markers that are not essential to the painting, yet are nevertheless toted as such by the "numbers only"-crowd.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Rom 13:9 The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself."

The bible says God is love. The person who follows after God should walk in love. They should be forgiving.

1Jn 4:7-8 Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

Luk 6:27-29 "But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also."

Mat 5:43-5 "You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

The consequence for not walking in love is eventually and justly punishment. God is as severe in punishment, for those who refuse to walk in love, as he is in love for those who walk in love. Below is the punishment for not walking in love:

Rev 20:12-15 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night ...

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

That's very... loving right there. And forgiving, too.

 

[razeontherock]

Jane, in your tagline, what kind of acid was that? (Hey Sith, I bet you didn't see that coming!)

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Jane, in your tagline, what kind of acid was that? (Hey Sith, I bet you didn't see that coming!)

The kind that Bill Hicks dropped, apparently.

Here's another quote: ‎"And we can change it anytime we want. It's only a choice. No effort, no work, no job, no savings of money. A choice, right now, between fear and love. The eyes of fear wants you to put bigger locks on your door, buy guns, close yourself off. The eyes of love, instead see all of us as one."

 

[razeontherock]

This gets interesting fast:

what role does fear have to the OP's question? Plenty, I say. Is there anybody who disagrees?

 

[bling]

For this question, I am defining sin as actions which go against a certain set of external rules, while immorality is defined as essentially actions you believe are wrong, either personally or because of an external code of conduct. The question itself is as follows:

How does your belief system or philosophy view sin and immorality (as defined above)? What is the reasoning behind immoral or sinful actions being sinful/immoral? What are the consequences of committing these 'sins' (physically, mentally, spiritually, etc.)?

If it is immoral it is also sin and it seems all sins are also immoral.

Sin is selfish behavior (unloving behavior) that winds up hurting us and others in the long run.

Sins are part of the non-Christian’s life and burden the person’s conscience with regret. This burden increases to the point the person can trust (faith) in a Loving creator to forgive him of these transgressions. The problem comes with accepting charity in the form of accepting God’s forgiveness or pride fully living with this burden until death.

If the person can truly accept forgiveness of these sins then he/she will Love much “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…” turning one’s life around. These sins tan have the benefit of becoming part of the person’s witness (how he was before Christ).

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

If it is immoral it is also sin and it seems all sins are also immoral.

So eating a shrimps cocktail or a pork chop is (or was at some point) immoral?
What about collecting firewood on the wrong day of the week? According to a chapter in Numbers, God at some point regarded this as a major offense worthy of immediate death by stoning.

Sin is selfish behavior (unloving behavior) that winds up hurting us and others in the long run.

In case the items mentioned above can be waved away on account of being "OC" (which still doesn't explain how they qualified as sins back then, if we follow your definition), what of such "sins" as sharing a bed with your spouse before you get officially married? How is this unloving, and how does it hurt the participants or others in the long run?
Or what about masturbation? It's also something that many Christians seem to regard as a clear no-no - where's the damage? (And in case you equate this with adultery: has in never occurred to you that there might be people who think of their beloved spouses while doing this?)

 

[razeontherock]

So eating a shrimps cocktail or a pork chop is (or was at some point) immoral?
What about collecting firewood on the wrong day of the week? According to a chapter in Numbers, God at some point regarded this as a major offense worthy of immediate death by stoning.


In case the items mentioned above can be waved away on account of being "OC"

You are of the sect that likes to pick at these things. Laura Schlesinger does too, so I guess you're in good company (And just in case the man addicted to dew is reading, this could be an example of Jews not being Jewish enough, while the context in which you used that phrase was very offensive to almost anyone's sensibilities)

I think these are "waved away" by virtue of their being part of a covenant made only with Jews. No pretense was ever made about these things being "sin" in any way shape or form, at least not in the sense of being immoral.

None of that makes the OT any less valid to Christianity, but it certainly does create a context which needs to be included in it's reading. You try to "wave away" that context, yet thrusting the words in where they don't belong.

The letter of the law kills. Seems to have a distinct relationship to sin

 

[sidhe]

Ooooh, time for the CrowleyQuote!

"The word of Sin is Restriction." - Liber Aleph

Basically, don't restrict yourself unnecessarily (self-discipline for a higher purpose is one thing, arbitrary restriction is another), and DEFINITELY don't restrict, or even try to restrict, another individual from acts that do not cause definite harm to another. They have their right to do their will as you do; that is as a unique body in a universe where each orbit is dependent on the others for balance, but totally unique.

And why not? Because lying to yourself sucks, because trying to control the lives of others sucks, and ultimately it all makes people sad pandas.

Or, for the kids story version:

There once was a little girl who had a star inside her, and she was proud of her star, and let it shine where ever she went. And some people were attracted to her star, and they followed the little girl because of her joy in herself. Many others, however, were jealous of the girl. They told her that to have a star was not natural, and that she should hide her star, and be ashamed of her star. They said she should be like them. As they made the girl feel worse, the more her star dimmed, and the more she acted like them, until her star was a feeble light that no one noticed. Now the girl had many friends, but she was sad.

One night, the girl went out walking, and looked up at the stars and the sky, and asked, "Night sky, why do all your stars shine so bright?"

To her shock, the sky answered, becoming a beautiful woman robed in stars, "Because, child, every star is unique, and I put a star in every man and woman to shine beautifully! Do what thou wilt is the whole of the law, my child - let your star shine!"

And so the girl did, and she did not listen to those who were jealous, and she taught those who gathered to her star to let theirs shine as well. And their light was as beautiful as the night sky, with every star unique.

 

[razeontherock]

"The word of Sin is Restriction." - Liber Aleph

So anything that tells us "no," (at least if it's something we want) is sinful - in the eyes of the satanic church.

This is exactly the gist of the demon who's name translates to "helper of man," whom I have met and defeated, when he was possessing a very large, powerful man. (No easy incident) he does not help anyone at all, but is a poseur.

 

[sidhe]

So anything that tells us "no," (at least if it's something we want) is sinful - in the eyes of the satanic church.

This is exactly the gist of the demon who's name translates to "helper of man," whom I have met and defeated, when he was possessing a very large, powerful man. (No easy incident) he does not help anyone at all, but is a poseur.

I've a feeling that you read "Crowley," read the next line, then proceeded to utterly ignore the remainder of the post.

Here's the rest, which rejects your position. I just didn't feel like quoting 10 pages of A.C. expounding on the meaning of restriction.

Basically, don't restrict yourself unnecessarily (self-discipline for a higher purpose is one thing, arbitrary restriction is another), and DEFINITELY don't restrict, or even try to restrict, another individual from acts that do not cause definite harm to another. They have their right to do their will as you do; that is as a unique body in a universe where each orbit is dependent on the others for balance, but totally unique.

And why not? Because lying to yourself sucks, because trying to control the lives of others sucks, and ultimately it all makes people sad pandas.

Or, for the kids story version:

There once was a little girl who had a star inside her, and she was proud of her star, and let it shine where ever she went. And some people were attracted to her star, and they followed the little girl because of her joy in herself. Many others, however, were jealous of the girl. They told her that to have a star was not natural, and that she should hide her star, and be ashamed of her star. They said she should be like them. As they made the girl feel worse, the more her star dimmed, and the more she acted like them, until her star was a feeble light that no one noticed. Now the girl had many friends, but she was sad.

One night, the girl went out walking, and looked up at the stars and the sky, and asked, "Night sky, why do all your stars shine so bright?"

To her shock, the sky answered, becoming a beautiful woman robed in stars, "Because, child, every star is unique, and I put a star in every man and woman to shine beautifully! Do what thou wilt is the whole of the law, my child - let your star shine!"

And so the girl did, and she did not listen to those who were jealous, and she taught those who gathered to her star to let theirs shine as well. And their light was as beautiful as the night sky, with every star unique.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Few seem to grasp that there's a distinction between "Do what you will" and "do what you want".
I guess more people ought to read "The Neverending Story"...

 

[Eudaimonist]

They have their right to do their will as you do; that is as a unique body in a universe where each orbit is dependent on the others for balance, but totally unique.

I can understand those who, like the Christians, seek a rolemodel to teach-by-example some healthy ethical standards and to pattern their lives after, but this should always be done with the proviso that you mention: that we are all unique.

I call the process "travelling full circle". The basic principle has to do with the relation between particulars and abstractions.

We may grow in wisdom by leaving Plato's Cave and going outside to experience the Sun -- i.e., experiencing the mental realm of abstractions. However, we are not abstractions ourselves and cannot flourish as anyone other than the particulars we are. We must go full circle and return to that cave, wiser, and yet shining as a unique star with our own light. To pretend to do otherwise is folly.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

We may grow in wisdom by leaving Plato's Cave and going outside to experience the Sun -- i.e., experiencing the mental realm of abstractions. However, we are not abstractions ourselves and cannot flourish as anyone other than the particulars we are. We must go full circle and return to that cave, wiser, and yet shining as a unique star with our own light. To pretend to do otherwise is folly.

This model exists in Buddhism as well. There, it is called "returning to the market place", as in the Japanese ox-herding pictures. These pictures show how a man tames an ox, and eventually gains enlightenment. But it doesn't culminate there - instead, the man returns to the aforementioned market place.

"When the traveller on the Tao reaches his/her goal the 10,000 things are again just as they are, just as they were before entering the gateless gate. Nevertheless he/she is infinitely richer for the experience. Now his/her heart flows with the 10,000 things, ignoring the intoxication of senses and experiencing being MU directly. Everything is MU, MU is "alive", therefore everything is "alive" (or, if you prefer: interdependent and in constant evolution). Everyone is an integral part of the entire cosmos. Impossible (and therefore the attempt is selfdefeating) to hold oneself apart from this universal process. Time and space collapse and a dead tree is also a sapling in bloom ("the beauty is invisible"). No longer obliged to follow the ideas (rules) of others, you become autonome, complete. Fully satisfied with oneself, and therefore with everyone and everything, there's no need to prolong (or shorten) one's life.

 

[Eudaimonist]

This model exists in Buddhism as well. There, it is called "returning to the market place"

Interesting. And here I had to discover/invent that concept for myself.

Yes, this is the very same concept. Pearls of wisdom are truly to be found anywhere in the world.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Psa 19:9 The fear of the LORD is pure, enduring forever. The ordinances of the LORD are sure and altogether righteous.

Whatever the LORD does will last. His ordinances also will last forever. We need to be certain of our selves because if we forsake the true God for one of our own making we are headed for eventual disaster, it is a friendless activity to be forsaken by the true life giver.

Rom 13:12-14 The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light. Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the sinful nature.

Tit 2:11-14 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. It teaches us to say "No" to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Psa 19:9 The fear of the LORD is pure, enduring forever. The ordinances of the LORD are sure and altogether righteous.

Is this a hit-and-run Bible quote post? I hope not. Please participate in the discussion.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[sidhe]

Few seem to grasp that there's a distinction between "Do what you will" and "do what you want".
I guess more people ought to read "The Neverending Story"...

Or some Jacqueline Carey, though the concept is a bit different there. Still shows that the surface meaning is not the real meaning.