Sin can not take away your salvation.

[gideons300]

Both of those passages speak of the ultimate sin of not accepting Christ as their sole Lord and savior. The good news was too good to be true. The doorway to the Kingdom of God is through total brokenness and humility. The real enemy is the belief that our humanness can achieve Godhood in any way.

The truth is in the reading of it. These were, as he stated in another place, those who had tasted of the heavenly calling, if they should fall away...meaning that they were indeed once saved... to renew them again unto repentance.

Paul even said that he kept his body under, lest after preaching to others, he himself might be called a castaway. Why in the world would he even acknowledge the possibility if the possibility did not exist?

We are told that Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all them that obey Him. But if we rebuild again that which He destroyed, we make ourselves transgressors and no more sacrifice for sin is available to us.

Can we do despite to the grace of God? Yes. Can we turn it into lasciviousness, a sin license? Yes. Can we fail of the grace of God... even as Christians? Yes. God has provided a way for us to walk in holiness and righteousness all the days of our lives. Grace with no responsibility doesn't bring us there, and leaves our hearts hardened by continual sinning, eventually with little to no repentance. Responsibility with no grace leaves us legalistic, fearing if we have repented enough.

Then there is the way.... putting on our new natures and believing Christ in us can cause us to walk in obedience just as He promised in Ezekiel 36. The hitch? We must first agree to put off our old one, and therein is the challenge. God's reasonable service for us is to walk as living sacrifices, all in for Him. Hyper grace , nor legalism will bring us to FREE INDEED, for he that commits sin is a servant to it, on both sides of the fence. God is asking if we believe He can keep us from falling. When we are desperate enough to say yes, we are about to experience a miracle.

Blessings,

Gideon

 

[Frogster]

If there were not clear scriptures to show us truth from God's point of view,. the reasons you listed would make a lot of sense. But there are. Here is but q few of them.

"If we sin willfully after having received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins but a certain fearful looking for of judgment."

"Behold therefore the goodness and the severity of God. On them which fell, severity, but towards thou goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise, thou also shall be cut off."

The danger of sin for a Christian is that we stop repenting of it. Sin hardens the heart, faith erodes and is replaced with mental ascent, the supreme deception. If either one of these above verses are true, and both are, how would this even be possible if the truth many are espousing were to be true? It would be simply impossible.

Blessings,

Gideon

again, the wilfull sin in 10:26, was to leave Christ in Hebrews, 10:29 says to trample the blood, that was an extreme, as I have said.

How come you never quote the security and glorious truths in that wonderful book, that are in Hebrews?

Even in Hebrews, he looked for their good..

6:9 Though we speak in this way, yet in your case, beloved, we feel sure of better things—things that belong to salvation.

Yet, in Hebrews, you just seem to see the few possible reprobates, and seem to think that the whole book only has that in it. Why is that?

Is fear the only thing in the Bible?

 

[Frogster]

If there were not clear scriptures to show us truth from God's point of view,. the reasons you listed would make a lot of sense. But there are. Here is but q few of them.

"If we sin willfully after having received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins but a certain fearful looking for of judgment."

"Behold therefore the goodness and the severity of God. On them which fell, severity, but towards thou goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise, thou also shall be cut off."

The danger of sin for a Christian is that we stop repenting of it. Sin hardens the heart, faith erodes and is replaced with mental ascent, the supreme deception. If either one of these above verses are true, and both are, how would this even be possible if the truth many are espousing were to be true? It would be simply impossible.

Blessings,

Gideon

Same thing with your Rom 11 verse. Romans has security and grace in it, but you grab that verse, ignoring all of the rest in the book. He goes on to say in Rom 11 that the fullness of the gentiles will come in...so he was just saying your verse, to keep balance, as there was already tensions among Jews and Greeks in the Home churches. So the fact that he says they will come in, shows he knew they would not be cut off, but you extrapolate that verse, as a fear item (sorry, i just don;t see what else to call it), again, ignoring all of the security in the rest of the Book. He even knew the Gentiles might get puffed up in 11:20, he said so, so he was just trying to keep balance there, that's all, as an apostle would do. He was not teaching about fear, or eternal insecurity at all.


In fact, the gentiles are called the elect right smack in the chapter you quoted out of in verse 11:7. So again, obviously he did not mean the verse you quoted to be, as you use it. So prooftexting a thought by one verse, that goes against the whole of the narrative found in Romans is not a good way to preach.

Why do you do that?

Thanks, frog.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

I believe there are two sides to this coin. The first is that the cross covers any sin we may commit, so there is always a chance of repentance. The sin may be deliberate, or it may be unintentional (for Christ died once for all sin, a life for a life time of sins). However God will often punish deliberate sin. We are not to think that God just winks at deliberate sin. If we rebel against God's command we will undergo a time of trouble to cleanse us of the sin.

Job 36:8-12 And if they be bound in fetters, and be holden in cords of affliction; Then he sheweth them their work, and their transgressions that they have exceeded. He openeth also their ear to discipline, and commandeth that they return from iniquity. If they obey and serve him, they shall spend their days in prosperity, and their years in pleasures. But if they obey not, they shall perish by the sword, and they shall die without knowledge.

If a person continues in rebellion, they may well die in the sin that God is trying to cleanse them from. They may die without knowledge. Sin has a hardening effect, if we are continually rebellious we are given over to blindness, and may loose site of the cross and faith in it. Although the cross is available to us.

Salvation although free, requires us to repent of deliberate willful sins. We should be trying to overcome all sin.

 

[gideons300]

This doesn't exactly make sense in context of the God i've known since childhood . but they are valid questions .



well i recall a passage it says that he who had no sin became sin so that we might be the righteousness of God . so i see the replacement . just differently.



I appreciate all the feedback on my thoughts . I tend to read the hebrews passage differently but am aware of the salvation oriented interpretation . I do take sin seriously .. it's just there's a balance and it's good to keep balanced what is identified in scriptures the greater things to guide the things that are not called "greater"
.
but the idea of a born again person .. dying . that brings up other questions like .. if someone who has been given the very quality of life that God possesses .. can die .. can God then die as well?

Michael, I appreciate your comments and questions. In my understanding, our salvation is not a one time thing. It is a walk we are called to walk out all the way to the end. Sadly, some will not.

Some will say "Yes, I will go and work in your fields", but they do not endure to the end, nor over truly make Jesus Lord of the lives, were they saved?

The good seed will fall on some ground and actually sprout to newness of life, correct? But either shallowness of root, or the cares of this life end up choking it out in the end and it ends up withered and burned.

Jesus spoke of those who were His people who would be so busy with THEIR lives in the end, that when the call came to come to the wedding, they with one accord begin to make excuses as to why they could not come right then. When the news reached the master, He was angry, and rightfully so. He then sends out His servants to the highways and byways to find the poor, the lame, the naked and compels them to come, for His marriage supper will be full.

On the great day of judgment, there will not be just a huge throng of angry lost people spitting back at God, determined to not have Jesus reign over them. There will be a group, earnest as you and I are today, who call Him Lord, but never made Him Lord. He was their savior, their way out of hell, but as to full surrender? They refused, and never fully surrendered to His ownership.

It brings to mind the man in the parable of the talents, the one who received from the master but who made no gain with it... none. The master again was angry for the lack of response.....and told His servants to take back from him and give it to another. His name, once in the lambs book of life, was blotted out. But then the clincher. In Luke 19, in this talents parable, we see the master's next comment after stripping away what once had been given to the unyielded man, still living for himself:

"Then bring all those who would not have me to reign over them, and slay them before me."

Ultimately, that is salvation, making Jesus BOTH savior and Lord. He cannot be the one without being the other. But praise God, when we do finally surrender and yield ourselves fully to God as those who are alive from the dead, to our amazement, all the promises become ours and God does exactly what He says He will do for us... in us.

He keeps us from falling.

He causes us to obey.

He makes a way of escape in every temptation, so that we do not give into it.

He equips us with shields of faith that he guarantees will quench ALL the fiery arrows of the enemy.

He not only forgives us but delivers us from the power of darkness.

He promises that sin shall no longer have dominion over us.

This, dear brother, is the glorious liberty of the children of God. I fully understand how hard it is to wrap ones head around this, I truly do. If God Himself had not awakened me six years ago and shown me Himself, I would be dead... or dead in sin. But He did, and glory to God, He has proven to me again and again that what He shared with me works.

He does not ask us to try harder. He asks us to admit that despite our best efforts, we can never defeat sin...it is our very nature. Our dilemma is this. We must be holy. We cannot be holy. SoHe does one better. He offers us new natures, ones that can be caused to obey, can walk in true holiness, and brother, it really, really REALLY works!

I cannot describe the joy I feel when satan comes tempting, and I find I can resist totally, in the faith that it is no longer me, but Christ in me who lives...and fights. We are light.... right now, but until we believe it, and arm ourselves with this truth, we will continue to fall. But once we reckon our old man as dead, not just dying, and put the armor on and raise our shields, and satan comes accusing, and we can look him in the eye and say "No, satan, that is not me. That WAS me, but I am a new creature and you have no power over me any longer", the feeling is pure joy unspeakable and full of glory. That is why I labor here so annoyingly diligently, LOL. Love constains me to do so, pure and simple.

Blessings,

Gids

 

[gideons300]

Same thing with your Rom 11 verse. Romans has security and grace in it, but you grab that verse, ignoring all of the rest in the book. He goes on to say in Rom 11 that the fullness of the gentiles will come in...so he was just saying your verse, to keep balance, as there was already tensions among Jews and Greeks in the Home churches. So the fact that he says they will come in, shows he knew they would not be cut off, but you extrapolate that verse, as a fear item (sorry, i just don;t see what else to call it), again, ignoring all of the security in the rest of the Book. He even knew the Gentiles might get puffed up in 11:20, he said so, so he was just trying to keep balance there, that's all, as an apostle would do. He was not teaching about fear, or eternal insecurity at all.


In fact, the gentiles are called the elect right smack in the chapter you quoted out of in verse 11:7. So again, obviously he did not mean the verse you quoted to be, as you use it. So prooftexting a thought by one verse, that goes against the whole of the narrative found in Romans is not a good way to preach.

Why do you do that?

Thanks, frog.

Brother, we ARE the elect. yet still told to make our calling and election sure. Why would this be stated if there was no need? We are "being saved" and our proof is that we endure to the end. Our assurance is that He causes us to now obey Him by indwelling us. If we find we are still wanting to walk in disobedience, something is drastically wrong.

Blessings,

Gids

 

[gideons300]

again, the wilfull sin in 10:26, was to leave Christ in Hebrews, 10:29 says to trample the blood, that was an extreme, as I have said.

How come you never quote the security and glorious truths in that wonderful book, that are in Hebrews?

Even in Hebrews, he looked for their good..

6:9 Though we speak in this way, yet in your case, beloved, we feel sure of better things—things that belong to salvation.

Yet, in Hebrews, you just seem to see the few possible reprobates, and seem to think that the whole book only has that in it. Why is that?

Is fear the only thing in the Bible?

Do I come across as fearful? I pray not. It is when we come to the end of our resistance, and admit that we cannot walk as living sacrifices, cannot be holy, cannot stop sinning, for our very nature opposes us, that we finally find relief from the pressures to obey. But we must face our need, our lack, and God's unchangeable holiness, and demand the we too be holy, that our fears are replaced by His true grace. He is willing to live through us as ONE, and that is how He causes us to finally be holy, not positionally alone, but in real life.

Amazing God. His love casts our fear when we see Him deliver us from the very power of the enemy that once was in us, but is in us no more. Perfect love indeed does cast out all fear.

Many blessings, dear friend.

Gideon

 

[Frogster]

Now, if you say "we" and it is not derogatory, no one will mind, but to say "we" in the bad thing, you think "we" are doing, that is unkind, and accusational.

Speaking of Romans, lookie here>>>>


8:33 Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.

Yet, you keep bringing charges against God's elect. Why?

So, contrary to your usage of that verse before, Paul says we can't be charged. All showing that there is more to Romans, than you selective verse quoting.

Thanks, frog.

 

[Frogster]

Do I come across as fearful? I pray not. It is when we come to the end of our resistance, and admit that we cannot walk as living sacrifices, cannot be holy, cannot stop sinning, for our very nature opposes us, that we finally find relief from the pressures to obey. But we must face our need, our lack, and God's unchangeable holiness, and demand the we too be holy, that our fears are replaced by His true grace. He is willing to live through us as ONE, and that is how He causes us to finally be holy, not positionally alone, but in real life.

Amazing God. His love casts our fear when we see Him deliver us from the very power of the enemy that once was in us, but is in us no more. Perfect love indeed does cast out all fear.

Many blessings, dear friend.

Gideon

hebrews is more than some verses that scare people, or take away their security, by far.

but, I don't see that from you, what do i see? Well, you asked, you know my answer.

Luv ya! frog.

 

[lismore]

Hebrews was written to people of a Jewish background and must be viewed in that respect. A lot of the passages can be misapplied in reference to non-Jews.

God Bless

 

[Alithis]

can we die a second time? No, Actually, Hebrews says no to your question, no, he does not have to die a second time, you prove it is eternal redemption, as I have said, let me know if you want text.

besides, those outside the city, gnashing, was not talking about the saved people.

who will die for those who have known the grace of God but chosen to walk in disobedience without repentance ..? no one because there is not another Christ-they must repent .
and the weeping and gnashing of teeth is done by those who "thought they were saved and thought they could continue in disobedience" that is "why" they end up outside the city .

And again - its all skirting the question really.
Can sin take away salvation..past sin no of course not.
Present sin you refuse to repent of?some imply no..-but what does that incomplete presentation imply?

So a man is saved and walks in that salvation ..then through hardness of heart he turns away and lives in sin.he is convicted by his conscience but repeatedly refuses to repent and stop doing it.he falls into further sin &drunkenness and partying ..even begins laying with other men and woman(do not be fooled,sexual immorality is not reserved for gays,non gays are equal sin.) On the day the lord returns he is engaged in a party committing sodomy...
The op.. ,In its incomplete presentation ,is implying this man is saved..
It is this incomplete open ended statement in the title of the Op.that i cannot agree with.
__________________

 

[Viren]

The truth is in the reading of it. These were, as he stated in another place, those who had tasted of the heavenly calling, if they should fall away...meaning that they were indeed once saved... to renew them again unto repentance.

I don't think so. When you're saved you become a new creation and that's entirely the work of Christ. Then you move on to constructing the house and although the workmanship can be shoddy, the foundation doesn't change. I think he's speaking more about someone like Judas who saw what Jesus did and still rejected him.

Paul even said that he kept his body under, lest after preaching to others, he himself might be called a castaway. Why in the world would he even acknowledge the possibility if the possibility did not exist?

The context here is Paul becoming like the people he is preaching to so that he might win them over. "Cast away" in the Young's literal translation is "approved". So the goal is to win people over to receive eternal rewards not to achieve salvation.

We are told that Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all them that obey Him. But if we rebuild again that which He destroyed, we make ourselves transgressors and no more sacrifice for sin is available to us.

Yeah, his sacrifice was once and for all unlike the old covenant system.

Can we do despite to the grace of God? Yes. Can we turn it into lasciviousness, a sin license? Yes. Can we fail of the grace of God... even as Christians? Yes. God has provided a way for us to walk in holiness and righteousness all the days of our lives. Grace with no responsibility doesn't bring us there, and leaves our hearts hardened by continual sinning, eventually with little to no repentance. Responsibility with no grace leaves us legalistic, fearing if we have repented enough.

Then there is the way.... putting on our new natures and believing Christ in us can cause us to walk in obedience just as He promised in Ezekiel 36. The hitch? We must first agree to put off our old one, and therein is the challenge. God's reasonable service for us is to walk as living sacrifices, all in for Him. Hyper grace , nor legalism will bring us to FREE INDEED, for he that commits sin is a servant to it, on both sides of the fence. God is asking if we believe He can keep us from falling. When we are desperate enough to say yes, we are about to experience a miracle.

Blessings,

Gideon

It's beautiful what you say and there is much truth in it in our walk toward drawing closer to God. I just disagree with start of the Christian life. The sick aren't required to get well before Jesus heals them. All it takes is a little faith.

 

[WoundedDeep]

The consequence of sin is death! (Romans 6:23) It is an outright lie to say sin cannot take away salvation. Those who live in sin are eternally separated from God, how is this not clear to you, OP?

 

[FoundInGrace]

The consequence of sin is death! (Romans 6:23) It is an outright lie to say sin cannot take away salvation. Those who live in sin are eternally separated from God, how is this not clear to you, OP?

I think the OP means once we are saved if we sin after that sin cant take away our salvation because Jesus paid for our sin at the Cross and His blood covers our sin.

 

[WoundedDeep]

I think the OP means once we are saved if we sin after that sin cant take away our salvation because Jesus paid for our sin at the Cross and His blood covers our sin.

That is if we repent. But if we live a life of sin, there is no confidence for that.

 

[FoundInGrace]

That is if we repent. But if we live a life of sin, there is no confidence for that.

Ahh, you believe we are responsible for whether we stay saved. I suspect we will wnd up disagreeibg as I believe Jesus blood is so powerful that even, thankfully, the sin of my rebellion past present and future was paid for in the moment I accepted Jesus as my Savior. For this I am very grateful.

As we will end up disagreeing this post is all I will say.

Eternal security is something I am grateful to have been given by Him, for those who dont have that it must be a quite anxiety ridden place to be to be trusting oneself rather than the finished work of Calvary for salvation.

All the best in working to keep your slate clean. I hope you make it to Heaven.

Sorry if that came out flippantly I sincerely hope you do 'stay saved' but more than that I hope you can rest in Christ alone one day to get into Heaven and not Christ plus your own efforts/works. (This is not meant to be offensive though I suspect it may come across as such as I am tired at the time of typing this)

 

[WoundedDeep]

Ahh, you believe we are responsible for whether we stay saved. I suspect we will wnd up disagreeibg as I believe Jesus blood is so powerful that even, thankfully, the sin of my rebellion past present and future was paid for in the moment I accepted Jesus as my Savior. For this I am very grateful.

As we will end up disagreeing this post is all I will say.

Eternal security is something I am grateful to have been given by Him, for those who dont have that it must be a quite anxiety ridden place to be to be trusting oneself rather than the finished work of Calvary for salvation.

All the best in working to keep your slate clean. I hope you make it to Heaven.

Sorry if that came out flippantly I sincerely hope you do stay saved but more than that I hope you can rest in Christ alone one day.

You misunderstand.

I am talking about faith here, not about God's salvation.

No one can undo God's salvation or the power of Jesus' sacrifice, but a Christian can certainly have his faith shipwrecked.

Christ's Blood delivers from the bondage of sin, it does not keep us in sin.

God's salvation is only given to those who have true faith. Can a professing Christian have a false faith? Yes, James 2 talks about that kind of faith, calling it "dead".

 

[brixken7]

You misunderstand.

I am talking about faith here, not about God's salvation. No one can undo God's salvation or the power of Jesus' sacrifice, but a Christian can certainly have his faith shipwrecked. Christ's Blood delivers from the bondage of sin, it does not keep us in sin.

God's salvation is only given to those who have true faith. Can a professing Christian have a false faith? Yes, James 2 talks about that kind of faith, calling it "dead".

This reminds me of what the famous Bible teacher, the late J. Vernon McGee said years ago (he taught "Thru the Bible" on the radio). He said that not only were the unreached billions of people unsaved, but so were the majority of church-going professing Christians. I personally agree, they're much like the living "dead" -- like zombies. And if you speak of the Bible to them,they either have no reply, or they merely mouth, like robots, what they have been taught.

 

[WoundedDeep]

This reminds me of what the famous Bible teacher, the late J. Vernon McGee said years ago (he taught "Thru the Bible" on the radio). He said that not only were the unreached billions of people unsaved, but so were the majority of church-going professing Christians. I personally agree, they're much like the living "dead" -- like zombies. And if you speak of the Bible to them,they either have no reply, or they merely mouth, like robots, what they have been taught.

Indeed, I perceive the OSAS lie as the same lie Satan told Eve in the Garden: "You shall not surely die". OSAS means a Christian can sin like the world and yet inherit eternal life. Isn't that the lie Eve believed in?

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Michael, I appreciate your comments and questions. In my understanding, our salvation is not a one time thing. It is a walk we are called to walk out all the way to the end. Sadly, some will not.

Some will say "Yes, I will go and work in your fields", but they do not endure to the end, nor over truly make Jesus Lord of the lives, were they saved?

The good seed will fall on some ground and actually sprout to newness of life, correct? But either shallowness of root, or the cares of this life end up choking it out in the end and it ends up withered and burned.

Jesus spoke of those who were His people who would be so busy with THEIR lives in the end, that when the call came to come to the wedding, they with one accord begin to make excuses as to why they could not come right then. When the news reached the master, He was angry, and rightfully so. He then sends out His servants to the highways and byways to find the poor, the lame, the naked and compels them to come, for His marriage supper will be full.

On the great day of judgment, there will not be just a huge throng of angry lost people spitting back at God, determined to not have Jesus reign over them. There will be a group, earnest as you and I are today, who call Him Lord, but never made Him Lord. He was their savior, their way out of hell, but as to full surrender? They refused, and never fully surrendered to His ownership.

It brings to mind the man in the parable of the talents, the one who received from the master but who made no gain with it... none. The master again was angry for the lack of response.....and told His servants to take back from him and give it to another. His name, once in the lambs book of life, was blotted out. But then the clincher. In Luke 19, in this talents parable, we see the master's next comment after stripping away what once had been given to the unyielded man, still living for himself:

"Then bring all those who would not have me to reign over them, and slay them before me."

Ultimately, that is salvation, making Jesus BOTH savior and Lord. He cannot be the one without being the other. But praise God, when we do finally surrender and yield ourselves fully to God as those who are alive from the dead, to our amazement, all the promises become ours and God does exactly what He says He will do for us... in us.

He keeps us from falling.

He causes us to obey.

He makes a way of escape in every temptation, so that we do not give into it.

He equips us with shields of faith that he guarantees will quench ALL the fiery arrows of the enemy.

He not only forgives us but delivers us from the power of darkness.

He promises that sin shall no longer have dominion over us.

This, dear brother, is the glorious liberty of the children of God. I fully understand how hard it is to wrap ones head around this, I truly do. If God Himself had not awakened me six years ago and shown me Himself, I would be dead... or dead in sin. But He did, and glory to God, He has proven to me again and again that what He shared with me works.

He does not ask us to try harder. He asks us to admit that despite our best efforts, we can never defeat sin...it is our very nature. Our dilemma is this. We must be holy. We cannot be holy. SoHe does one better. He offers us new natures, ones that can be caused to obey, can walk in true holiness, and brother, it really, really REALLY works!

I cannot describe the joy I feel when satan comes tempting, and I find I can resist totally, in the faith that it is no longer me, but Christ in me who lives...and fights. We are light.... right now, but until we believe it, and arm ourselves with this truth, we will continue to fall. But once we reckon our old man as dead, not just dying, and put the armor on and raise our shields, and satan comes accusing, and we can look him in the eye and say "No, satan, that is not me. That WAS me, but I am a new creature and you have no power over me any longer", the feeling is pure joy unspeakable and full of glory. That is why I labor here so annoyingly diligently, LOL. Love constains me to do so, pure and simple.

Blessings,

Gids

i think i get that the issue you're addressing is related to the institutional church and how it affects the hearts of the people . that it is not the "good ground" of the parable, but leads people into stagnation so that pastors can be fed off their substance in a relationship of co-dependency . As this is not everyone's situation .. I think when people realize it doesn't relate to them they'll be less offended by your words .
.
God bless .