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Sin and free will in heaven

Discussion in 'Questions by Non-Christians (Archived)' started by James D., Jul 11, 2002.

  1. James D.

    James D. New Member

    24
    +0
    I'm just wondering how sin can not exist in heaven without free will being stifled. If it's possible for God to retain free will while preventing sin and suffering why, do you think, he didn't do it on Earth? :confused: :scratch:
     
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  2. Othniel

    Othniel Cup Overflowing

    151
    +0
    Good question. The answer is simple:

    How can free will exist and there be a sinless heaven?

    Because God is God and He can do anything.

    Now...this is an answer you have to take on faith. We must keep in mind that God's purpose on earth is bigger than just us (check out Eph 3:10-11). God created us perfect and with free will, yet, by His nature, He also knew that we would fall, yet He did not will that fall, nor make that fall occur. This in itself is impossible for a human mind to understand logically. It must be understood Spiritually. If anyone does not have wisdom, he should should ask God for it, for He gives generously and without finding fault. (James 1:5)

    This is one of those tests which are there to see if you really believe, or if you are still depending on your own understanding.
    Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and the answer becomes clear. God can because He will.

    Why did He not prevent us from falling the first time? Did Adam or Eve ask Him too? In a heaven and earth where we understand God's glory because of His salvation of us, how could we ever fall again? If you eat dirt your whole life, and then you receive a wedding banquet feast, why would you go back to eating dirt?

    Don't know if that helped, but I tried. :)

    Peace to all who seek it,
    <><
     
  3. GraftMeIn

    GraftMeIn The Masters Gardener

    +5
    I think that the reason free will isn't stiffled in heaven is because, we make that choice right here on earth. By striving to do Gods will while we live on earth, we have proven ourselves to him in a way.

    We make up our minds in our earthly life, to either follow Gods laws, or to do what is evil. Those who choose to follow Gods law, and want his will to be done are welcomed into heaven. Those who decided they wanted to do what is evil aren't, therefore ensuring that by our own free will, only those who are willing, and want to follow Gods ways get into heaven.

    So God knows our hearts before we enter heaven, and he knows we want nothing to do with evil before we ever get there.
     
  4. Gerry

    Gerry Jesus Paid It All

    +12
    Sounds like a question better suited for apologetics to me. But I will add a point to what the others have said. How do we know free will is "stifled" in Heaven? The truth is we know very little about Heaven and what it will be like. But we know the Angels in Heaven have free will. A third of them chose to sin and rebel, and like man they fell.

    We know that Jesus as a human had free will and chose not to sin. We also know that according to I John 3:2 we shall be like Him.

    I think GraftMein is very right. We make our choice now. And as Othniel says, if we eat dirt all our lives, why would we choses it again after the Banquet Feast that awaits us?
     
  5. Reformationist

    Reformationist Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

    +412
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    Actually, I think this is the perfect forum for this question. :)

    The reason, James, is because when we get to heaven we will receive our glorified bodies.&nbsp; The reason saved people continue to sin is because when God saved us He left us in this vessel that is suseptible to temptation.&nbsp; Our flesh is weak.&nbsp; When we are glorified our only desire will be to do God's Will, and, thank God, we'll be able to do it always.

    God bless.
     
  6. Sharky

    Sharky Rockin dude!

    +157
    Christian
    There's alot of things even the physical body don't know :). Probably even beyond your imagination. But hey! Why bother worrying. It's gonna be great up there anyway regardless how we look at it here :D.
     
  7. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +62
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    Well 1. we know what happens when we sin 2. we will know what happens when we don't sin (be with God) 2 far outwieghs 1 thus you will never want to sin. :)
     
  8. foolsparade

    foolsparade Well-Known Member

    +24
    Atheist
    wow!having belief in a God makes all answers so easy doesnt it?God can do anything,without explanation! sounds like a short cut to thinking.Does'nt Jesus suggest that we should not worry about the after life?God's gift is this life?
     
  9. GraftMeIn

    GraftMeIn The Masters Gardener

    +5
    Actually no it doesn't make things easy. and you state the opposite of what the Bible teaches us.

    Colossians 3:1-2

    Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God. Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things.

    The Bible also tells us not to worry about our earthly bodies, or what men can do to them, because although they may be able to harm our earthly bodies, they cannot touch&nbsp;our soul.

    It is our after life that we need to worry about, not this life. Our after life is eternal, this life shall pass away.

    &nbsp;
     
  10. foolsparade

    foolsparade Well-Known Member

    +24
    Atheist
    this sounds like an indictment on life.the life we have on earth.doesnt this negate this life?doesnt this create an unhealthy view of the world around us?
     
  11. Neo

    Neo the one

    +18
    Adam and Eve were with God, and they sinned.
     
  12. SolidGoldScarecrow

    SolidGoldScarecrow Redeemed

    17
    +0
    They were tempted by the Enemy. His influence will no longer be an issue.
     
  13. Neo

    Neo the one

    +18
    God created the enemy, and&nbsp;allowed&nbsp;him&nbsp;to enter&nbsp;the Garden of Eden. What makes you think that he won't do that again? And more importantly, why did he do that in the first place?
     
  14. Neo

    Neo the one

    +18
    It sure does.

    "The Christian resolution to find the world ugly and bad has made the world ugly and bad."
    --Friedrich Nietzsche
     
  15. SolidGoldScarecrow

    SolidGoldScarecrow Redeemed

    17
    +0
    &nbsp;

    God tells us that heaven will be God and His people, totally and fully in his presence. When you're experiencing the presence of the Holy Spirit, you don't want to sin. When I worship, the thing that's on my mind is, "Man, how could I ever _do_ that garbage!"

    &nbsp;

    The thing is, in the presence of the Father and His Holy Spirit, the devil can't operate. Like fire in a vacuum. Its only after I stop worshipping and go back home to be hit with those things my body tells me I ache for.

    &nbsp;

    How do I know the Lord won't let the devil back into the garden, so to speak? Heaven is life eternally in the Father's presence, and the presence of the Son. The devil can't tolerate that.

    &nbsp;

    Why did he let him into the garden in the first place, way back when? Free will. The Enemy was an angel, with free will. He chose to leave God's presence to attempt to become as great as God. God created man to live in fellowship with Him. Devil didn't want that, and wanted man to lust after what the he had to offer. So he tempted man. Man said, "Whoooaaa... wicked fruit...rockin'...." and ate, disobeying what God had said. God can't stand sin, so out we went, and we deserved it. We had a spirit of obedience, and we looked away from it.

    &nbsp;

    Anywho, no sin in heaven, because we won't want it. It won't even occur to us. You'll be in the presence of the Father. Biggest high in all of recorded and unrecorded history. Unabashed worship. Forever.

    &nbsp;

    *shivers* Whoo! Till then, we have Skillet...*jams*:cool:
     
  16. Neo

    Neo the one

    +18
    1. God was in the Garden when Satan entered.
    2. In Job 1:6-12, Satan enters Heaven, and goes before God, still being able to operate.
    3. God is omnipresent, so it's impossible to escape his presence, yet Satan is still capable of operating.
     
  17. SolidGoldScarecrow

    SolidGoldScarecrow Redeemed

    17
    +0
    Nah nah, you're thinking about it wrong. Devil was an angel, right? So he can operate in the field of God. I wasn't specific enough. Its not simply God who drives the devil away because, as you say, God is omnipresent. Lemme detail...

    1. God was in the Garden when Satan entered. Well, sort of. The Bible implies that God manifested Himself and walked around, enjoying the scenery and playing volley-ball with Gabriel or something. I won't pretend to totally understand what the Garden was like, but in the end it comes down to this: the devil could enter the Garden because it was just God and his boy (and girl). Why the devil wasn't unable to enter I'll hit in a sec.

    2. I love the book of Job, and I remember when the devil stood before God and said, "Pleeeeeease lemme hit him? Please? Pa-leeease?". We're told on several occasions throughout scripture that the devil stands before God accusing us. Again, in the presence of God the devil is permitted. He's an angel, fallen or not, and as the tempter and accuser, he gets in God's face and howls about all the sins we commit.

    3. Here's where I'll try to bring this into perspective. This is also where you get into what the big-wig apologetics call "The Godhead", or the Trinity. The devil is scared of Jesus. Sort of like I was afraid of my dad before I did something bad because I knew he'd thwack me. The devil knows Jesus will inevitably carry out his judgement. In the account where Jesus drives out the demons called Legion, we get a glimpse of just how the denizens of Hell feel about Jesus.

    Well, Jesus does his thing on earth and, eternal thanks to the Father, he dies, is brought back from death, and returns home to heaven once and for all to rule with God. Can the devil enter heaven now? *shrugs* Don't know. No accounts of it now in Scripture. But Jesus now operates amongst his faithful via the Holy Spirit.

    Ah yes. Now Jesus says that wherever two or more are gathered in His name, His spirit is guaranteed to be there. Which is why when we get together and worship as one body, our temptations, problems, cares, worries, everything just falls away, and you feel joy. Not "hurray, Jesus is neat" joy, but "FIRE! FIRE! JOY JOY JOY! FIRE! JOY! JOY!" kind of joy. You've really got to feel it to believe it. And its in _that_ setting that the devil can't operate.

    How was that?
     
  18. Neo

    Neo the one

    +18
    You can speak in tongues, heal sick&nbsp;people by laying your hands on them, drink poison without dieing, and handle poisonous snakes? I would like to see that.

    Mark 16:17-18
    And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.
     
  19. Neo

    Neo the one

    +18
    He doesn't seem to be very frightened of Jesus in the gospels. He approaches Jesus several times, and tempts him.
     
  20. SolidGoldScarecrow

    SolidGoldScarecrow Redeemed

    17
    +0
    Under the right circumstances, I believe I can, yeah. Here's the thing about miracles: they tend to satisfy people's needs for sensionalism. Well, signs anyway. Miracles on the other hand, BOTH parties need to have faith.

    When Jesus healed people by direct contact or just the hem of his cloak, it wa because He knew that the Father could heal through Him, and the people who were to be healed believed that they could be ehaled by Jesus. Faith on both parties.

    The following I _know_ you're going to think I'm making up. WHich is why you may never see miracles. BUt if you do, you'll be defending Christianity right with me on these boards. Heck, I'll even buy you lunch.

    *grins*

    A friend of mine is just like me, growing in the love and faith and teachings of Jesus. He's currently working at a camp for youth as a councilor all summer. He's learning there, in turn, from people who've picked up hot coals, spoken in tongues, and seen demons.

    Take that if you want to. I'd trust this guy with my life. In my own experiences, I've seen hearts broken by the Spirit, people's lives changed and turned around, whole groups of people united and fall to their knees to sing praises to my Jesus.

    Do I think I can do those things? Absolutely. Have I? No. Will I? *shrugs* Not for me to decide. Those things are Jesus' way of saying that he'll take care of us no matter what. I might go through my life and never _need_ to drink poison, never _need_ to speak in tongues. And the SPirit isn't going to inspire me to do it to make people go "Wasn't that interesting". It'll happen for a reason, like bringing people to Christ.

    The thing is, I've seen lots of people come to faith in Jesus just by the miracle the Spirit works in their hearts with their emotions and their understandings, myself included. That's a full-fledged miracle. Anyone is savable.

    Since we're into this together, Neo, where are you from? Figure since we're laying this down together we might as well get to know each other. :wave:
     
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