Signs and Wonders Essential

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I have been re-reading the Gospels and Acts and have become convinced that signs and wonders are essential to the preaching of the gospel, and normal Christian experience. I have come to believe that churches that do not advocate signs and wonders as the foundation of the involvement of the Holy Spirit, are disobeying important commands of Jesus and are actually dead when they mistakenly think they are alive churches.

The problem is that after the 5th Century, the Church was being ruled by leaders influenced more by religious demons than by the Holy Spirit. This is why for over 1000 years, there were no signs and wonders in the established Church, except for a few small movements that were outlawed and destroyed by that established Church. There have been some major revivals in the last 300 years that have gradually restored a belief that signs and wonders are a part of the gospel, but in many cases, it has been treated as an optional extra, rather than the foundation of it.

The majority of evangelical churches have depended on the words of the gospel and quoting the Bible to try and get people to accept Christ as Saviour. There are thousands of books printed on how to do evangelism, but I have not found one that teaches that getting sinners saved is near impossible without accompanying signs and wonders. Yet, when signs and wonders have been present, thousands upon thousands have willingly come to Christ. We saw this in the book of Acts, especially when people were healed. During the healing revival of the 1940s and 50s, successful healing evangelists drew crowds of people to their tent revivals.

The main reason why people don't experience signs and wonders in our current churches is that either the churches refuse to believe that they are the foundation of the preaching of the gospel, or that they do not apply in today's churches.

The churches that believe in the signs and wonders give just lip service to the "doctrine" of it in their articles of faith, but they don't believe that it can and will actually happen in their meetings. This is why thousands of people are ministered to for healing, and very few, if any, are actually healed. If the early Church in the book of Acts had the same attitude toward signs and wonders as today's churches, I would doubt that we would have a Christian Church today. It would have died out long before the end of the first century as the last of the twelve original apostles and their direct disciples died off. The reason why the Church Church became the powerful entity that spread throughout the known world and overthrew the Roman Empire was that the preaching of the gospel was accompanied by signs and wonders all the time.

We pray that we preach the word of God with boldness and just leave it there. We do not complete the prayer prayed by the disciples at the start of Acts where they asked for boldness, and that "signs and wonders be done in the name of your holy child Jesus." It is when they prayed that whole prayer that the place was shaken and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit. These days, we pray for boldness, get a few goosebumps up our spines and think that we can go out and win the world for Christ. Then we wonder why people won't listen to us.

Even when one or two actually believe the Word of God and maintain that signs and wonders are essential, and start seeing the signs and wonders happening, they are put down, criticised, and persecuted by the very churches that have the belief in signs and wonders in their own articles of faith!!! One healing evangelist from a prominent Pentecostal denomination experienced persecution from his home church because the leaders of the church were jealous of his success when they were failing to come up with the goods in their established Pentecostal churches.

So, I maintain that even though a church has acceptance of signs and wonders in its articles of faith, but does not teach that the preaching of the Gospel has to be accompanied by signs and wonders, and does not pray without ceasing that the Holy Spirit will perform the signs and wonders when they go out into the community with the Gospel, is actually a dead church. All they have are words without power. Although they are giving lip service, they are actually disobeying the command of Christ to "heal the sick, cast out demons, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead" as well as preach the good news. All they do is try to preach the good news without the rest and wonder why they fail to produce the goods.

A component of the list of those who will not get into heaven is "the unbelieving". Does this include those who will not believe and obey the command of Jesus to include signs and wonders in their religious practice. I believe the difference between operating from a religious spirit and The Holy Spirit, is the inclusion of signs and wonders in what they do. The religious spirit deals mainly with religious words. The Holy Spirit works with the words of eternal life accompanied by miraculous signs and wonders.

 

[stuart lawrence]

I have been re-reading the Gospels and Acts and have become convinced that signs and wonders are essential to the preaching of the gospel, and normal Christian experience. I have come to believe that churches that do not advocate signs and wonders as the foundation of the involvement of the Holy Spirit, are disobeying important commands of Jesus and are actually dead when they mistakenly think they are alive churches.

The problem is that after the 5th Century, the Church was being ruled by leaders influenced more by religious demons than by the Holy Spirit. This is why for over 1000 years, there were no signs and wonders in the established Church, except for a few small movements that were outlawed and destroyed by that established Church. There have been some major revivals in the last 300 years that have gradually restored a belief that signs and wonders are a part of the gospel, but in many cases, it has been treated as an optional extra, rather than the foundation of it.

The majority of evangelical churches have depended on the words of the gospel and quoting the Bible to try and get people to accept Christ as Saviour. There are thousands of books printed on how to do evangelism, but I have not found one that teaches that getting sinners saved is near impossible without accompanying signs and wonders. Yet, when signs and wonders have been present, thousands upon thousands have willingly come to Christ. We saw this in the book of Acts, especially when people were healed. During the healing revival of the 1940s and 50s, successful healing evangelists drew crowds of people to their tent revivals.

The main reason why people don't experience signs and wonders in our current churches is that either the churches refuse to believe that they are the foundation of the preaching of the gospel, or that they do not apply in today's churches.

The churches that believe in the signs and wonders give just lip service to the "doctrine" of it in their articles of faith, but they don't believe that it can and will actually happen in their meetings. This is why thousands of people are ministered to for healing, and very few, if any, are actually healed. If the early Church in the book of Acts had the same attitude toward signs and wonders as today's churches, I would doubt that we would have a Christian Church today. It would have died out long before the end of the first century as the last of the twelve original apostles and their direct disciples died off. The reason why the Church Church became the powerful entity that spread throughout the known world and overthrew the Roman Empire was that the preaching of the gospel was accompanied by signs and wonders all the time.

We pray that we preach the word of God with boldness and just leave it there. We do not complete the prayer prayed by the disciples at the start of Acts where they asked for boldness, and that "signs and wonders be done in the name of your holy child Jesus." It is when they prayed that whole prayer that the place was shaken and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit. These days, we pray for boldness, get a few goosebumps up our spines and think that we can go out and win the world for Christ. Then we wonder why people won't listen to us.

Even when one or two actually believe the Word of God and maintain that signs and wonders are essential, and start seeing the signs and wonders happening, they are put down, criticised, and persecuted by the very churches that have the belief in signs and wonders in their own articles of faith!!! One healing evangelist from a prominent Pentecostal denomination experienced persecution from his home church because the leaders of the church were jealous of his success when they were failing to come up with the goods in their established Pentecostal churches.

So, I maintain that even though a church has acceptance of signs and wonders in its articles of faith, but does not teach that the preaching of the Gospel has to be accompanied by signs and wonders, and does not pray without ceasing that the Holy Spirit will perform the signs and wonders when they go out into the community with the Gospel, is actually a dead church. All they have are words without power. Although they are giving lip service, they are actually disobeying the command of Christ to "heal the sick, cast out demons, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead" as well as preach the good news. All they do is try to preach the good news without the rest and wonder why they fail to produce the goods.

A component of the list of those who will not get into heaven is "the unbelieving". Does this include those who will not believe and obey the command of Jesus to include signs and wonders in their religious practice. I believe the difference between operating from a religious spirit and The Holy Spirit, is the inclusion of signs and wonders in what they do. The religious spirit deals mainly with religious words. The Holy Spirit works with the words of eternal life accompanied by miraculous signs and wonders.

Biblically speaking, signs, wonders and miracles are an endorsement/ proof of the truth of the message being preached:

John 10:25, john 14:11, Acts 14:3, Rom15:18&19, Heb2:2-4

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Biblically speaking, signs, wonders and miracles are an endorsement/ proof of the truth of the message being preached:

John 10:25, john 14:11, Acts 14:3, Rom15:18&19, Heb2:2-4

This naturally leads to not being able to prove to our neo-pagan world that God is actually alive and that Jesus rose from the dead if signs, wonders and miracles are not present. That's why Jesus commanded us to heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons, as well as preach the good news. I think it is a waste of time trying to preach the gospel to our unbelieving world without absolute miraculous proof that Jesus Christ is really alive and that what we preach is true. Furthermore, if we are not depending on signs and wonders to make our preaching successful, we are disobeying a command of Christ and therefore cannot expect the Holy Spirit to work with us.

 

[stuart lawrence]

This naturally leads to not being able to prove to our neo-pagan world that God is actually alive and that Jesus rose from the dead if signs, wonders and miracles are not present. That's why Jesus commanded us to heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons, as well as preach the good news. I think it is a waste of time trying to preach the gospel to our unbelieving world without absolute miraculous proof that Jesus Christ is really alive and that what we preach is true. Furthermore, if we are not depending on signs and wonders to make our preaching successful, we are disobeying a command of Christ and therefore cannot expect the Holy Spirit to work with us.

Possibly many do not see signs, wonders and miracles in their ministry for they are not preaching the pure, undiluted message of the Gospel. Therefore, such endorsement of their gospel message is not given

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Possibly many do not see signs, wonders and miracles in their ministry for they are not preaching the pure, undiluted message of the Gospel. Therefore, such endorsement of their gospel message is not given

All that Paul and Peter preached was that Jesus is the Son of God and that He rose from the dead. Pretty simple. The Early Church prayed that signs and wonders be done in the Name of Jesus as well as boldness to preach the gospel.

Paul cited different reasons for preaching the gospel. He said that some were preaching out of a sincere desire to glorify Christ and others were preaching out of self promotion and jealousy. He did not condemn the latter but acknowledged that it the Word was getting out there, then he would not oppose it. Jesus said the same thing when a group other than His direct disciples were casting out demons. He said not to stop them because if they were not against Him, they were for Him.

I think that the main reason why signs and wonders are so rare in today's churches and evangelistic efforts is that preachers and leaders do not believe that they will happen. They may say they want them to happen, but they do not expect them and do not pray fervently for them. The teaching that signs and wonders are not for today have been so ingrained into the Church over 1500 years that the religious spirit, spirit of unbelief and lying spirits are very powerful to the point where many leaders and preachers cannot believe that miracles can happen in their churches. So, they try to carry on without them and make excuses about why signs and wonders are not happening, instead of going on their knees in desperate and fervent prayer for the faith to believe for miracles.

Even though the Corinthian church had big problems involving sin that was not even practiced among the pagans, the church still had miracles happening in it. Paul did say that some in that church were trading in just religious words without power, and when he came to visit them he wanted to see the power operating through them.

It was normal practice in the Early churches that signs, wonders and miracles took place. If they are not taking place today, then we can only conclude that most of our churches are abnormal when compared to the churches in Acts.

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

I have been re-reading the Gospels and Acts and have become convinced that signs and wonders are essential to the preaching of the gospel, and normal Christian experience. I have come to believe that churches that do not advocate signs and wonders as the foundation of the involvement of the Holy Spirit, are disobeying important commands of Jesus and are actually dead when they mistakenly think they are alive churches.

The problem is that after the 5th Century, the Church was being ruled by leaders influenced more by religious demons than by the Holy Spirit. This is why for over 1000 years, there were no signs and wonders in the established Church, except for a few small movements that were outlawed and destroyed by that established Church. There have been some major revivals in the last 300 years that have gradually restored a belief that signs and wonders are a part of the gospel, but in many cases, it has been treated as an optional extra, rather than the foundation of it.

The majority of evangelical churches have depended on the words of the gospel and quoting the Bible to try and get people to accept Christ as Saviour. There are thousands of books printed on how to do evangelism, but I have not found one that teaches that getting sinners saved is near impossible without accompanying signs and wonders. Yet, when signs and wonders have been present, thousands upon thousands have willingly come to Christ. We saw this in the book of Acts, especially when people were healed. During the healing revival of the 1940s and 50s, successful healing evangelists drew crowds of people to their tent revivals.

The main reason why people don't experience signs and wonders in our current churches is that either the churches refuse to believe that they are the foundation of the preaching of the gospel, or that they do not apply in today's churches.

The churches that believe in the signs and wonders give just lip service to the "doctrine" of it in their articles of faith, but they don't believe that it can and will actually happen in their meetings. This is why thousands of people are ministered to for healing, and very few, if any, are actually healed. If the early Church in the book of Acts had the same attitude toward signs and wonders as today's churches, I would doubt that we would have a Christian Church today. It would have died out long before the end of the first century as the last of the twelve original apostles and their direct disciples died off. The reason why the Church Church became the powerful entity that spread throughout the known world and overthrew the Roman Empire was that the preaching of the gospel was accompanied by signs and wonders all the time.

We pray that we preach the word of God with boldness and just leave it there. We do not complete the prayer prayed by the disciples at the start of Acts where they asked for boldness, and that "signs and wonders be done in the name of your holy child Jesus." It is when they prayed that whole prayer that the place was shaken and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit. These days, we pray for boldness, get a few goosebumps up our spines and think that we can go out and win the world for Christ. Then we wonder why people won't listen to us.

Even when one or two actually believe the Word of God and maintain that signs and wonders are essential, and start seeing the signs and wonders happening, they are put down, criticised, and persecuted by the very churches that have the belief in signs and wonders in their own articles of faith!!! One healing evangelist from a prominent Pentecostal denomination experienced persecution from his home church because the leaders of the church were jealous of his success when they were failing to come up with the goods in their established Pentecostal churches.

So, I maintain that even though a church has acceptance of signs and wonders in its articles of faith, but does not teach that the preaching of the Gospel has to be accompanied by signs and wonders, and does not pray without ceasing that the Holy Spirit will perform the signs and wonders when they go out into the community with the Gospel, is actually a dead church. All they have are words without power. Although they are giving lip service, they are actually disobeying the command of Christ to "heal the sick, cast out demons, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead" as well as preach the good news. All they do is try to preach the good news without the rest and wonder why they fail to produce the goods.

A component of the list of those who will not get into heaven is "the unbelieving". Does this include those who will not believe and obey the command of Jesus to include signs and wonders in their religious practice. I believe the difference between operating from a religious spirit and The Holy Spirit, is the inclusion of signs and wonders in what they do. The religious spirit deals mainly with religious words. The Holy Spirit works with the words of eternal life accompanied by miraculous signs and wonders.

man this was very well written and I agree with all of it. People need to believe in the power of God! Signs and wonders are essential!

 

[Heissonear]

Hello Oscarr,
This is my first time for me being within this part of the Forum.

You present many details in you post. It appears the main part was signs and wonders have been lost - but should be essential to bring people to the Lord Jesus.

William Branham was the key one used by God in the two prong move of God in the late 1940's on into the later 1950's.

The life of William had only the highest point in Acts as a parallel to manifestation of signs and wonders. He has had no parrellel since Acts.

A study of his life and those who stayed true to the Spirit since shows God using signs and wonders, but with intent of a end time in the Church age, a time when the Church has repeatedly failed, a time God, before all, has interrupted the falling away Church mess.

Since Willam there has been out pourings, but only for a select few. A maturing of those who seek to press on. Who need to be matured and separated from the Falling Away Church.

Those after William, which have specific names I will not currently present, in their short-lived signs an wonders minestry, start to eventually show emptiness, right in the midst of their grand structures they built around them.

You should know by the early 1900's outpouring that fleshly men eventually stagnate and takes over. A walk like in Acts eventually set aside happened again.

Can I say this is the Falling Away spoke of. A Falling Away you maybe unknowingly may want to have happen again, like the many times before.

William was the real last pure to the end anointed with signs and wonders following him, Before All In The World.

Since William only Select few for maturing, in need of Open Heavens to further mature.

So, to me the message from the Scriptures since William is the Falling Away, and signs and wonders are not the key to resolve the current mess and Church work to done.

The time and season has expanded to beyond use of the Fallen Church. The Expansion is now to the Eternal Gospel and Body, as started in the Garden, and even clearly presented in Genesis 6:3. And in the Garden the Eternal Way as can be seen in Genesis 2:16-17

The conviction of everyone everywhere throughout time, patterned in Genesis 2:16-17

The conviction of what is right (leading to righteousness) symbolized by "you may eat of any fruit of the Garden"

The conviction of sin symbolized by "but of the tree of knowledge you must not eat"

And the conviction of judgement symbolized by "for in the day you eat of it you shall die".

This part of Genesis with Genesis 6:3 show God at work in people, to convict them of righteousness, sin, and judgement; and this is a work by Him in every person in every place in time, geography, and society or civilization, the Flesh Verses The Spirit as presented in Galation 5: 17-25. The work of the Spirit within everyone - to convict of what is right, what is sin, and of judgement; quickened within everyone; as cross parallel presented in Genesis 2:16-17 with John 16:8. It has never changed, but only come to light in the Last Days.

Since William Branham the Church has lost its commission. No more continued Pentecost outpouring only to be taken over by Fleshly groups or individuals.

We are in transition to the Kingdom Age at hand. Established in the Eternal Gospel where it is God at work in you to do His will, and if you do not obey it is God who people do not obey, as presented as part of the Eternal Gospel revealed in the Last Days, in Philippians 2:12-13.

Oscurr, we are in a different Age, in transition between Ages. As when John the Baptist and Jesus walked and ministered, a transition from the old to new, or next.

It is no longer about signs and wonders, but God in people, in everyone, and they are to heed Him. He watches and counts every persons steps, the number of hairs on their head, the history of every element a person is made up of, encompassing knowledge about them every second: for all that have lived before us and for all currently living on a Earth.

The God throughout time has always been near and active in everyone throughout past generations, as part of the Eternal Gospel to be revealed in the Last Days as presented in Jeremiah 23:23-24.

There is no reason for signs and wonders, but the need for soils (every persons heart) to receive and do what is places (plants) within them (heart). Life and death is set before them, when the Word is made near, even within their heart by the Spirit, as part of the Eternal gospel as presented in Deuteronomy 30:11-20.

People are leaving "denominations and church building". Even every since William Branham phenomenal life, as one of how the Church should be but never ever sustained since Acts. The church is and the host of pet doctrines are being set aside. They are useless and junk from the Falling Away. The Eternal Gospel and the Kingdom is at hand. The Church has completed its season, even producing the detailed mess observable by all to see the Church Falling Away.

It is a time of feast of Tabernacles, as God continues to do His work among mankind. The message is God is now in everyone, every second, and in their heart making His Eternal Word known, even Him within them to hear, heed, and worship. It has always been throughout the Ages. It has never went away.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Hello Oscarr,
This is my first time for me being within this part of the Forum.

You present many details in you post. It appears the main part was signs and wonders have been lost - but should be essential to bring people to the Lord Jesus.

I'm sorry not to be quoting your whole post. You make many points which I don't have the knowledge to address. But I will make some comments nevertheless.

I have no doubt that William Branham had a unique ministry, especially in the Word of Knowledge. The mistake he made was to leave his original calling to try and become a Bible teacher. It was then that he made mistakes in what he taught. Nevertheless, he was anointed of God for the ministry He gave him. The reason why he was taken early in his life was to "save the body of Christ" and to minimise the extent of the division that his teaching was causing.

The problem with other ministries being short-lived, although the ministry of Smith Wigglesworth remained powerful right up to his death in 1947. His was perhaps the only healing ministry that did not have some scandal or error attached to it. The ministries were short-lived in general because the ministries died with the evangelist. This was because they kept the ministry to themselves and presented themselves as the only ones with the gift and that those who needed healing or deliverance needed to come to where they were preaching and be prayed for by him or her. They did not train others in the ministry, nor did they show to the people that anyone filled with the Spirit could cast out demons and lay hands on the sick for healing.

The exception was John G Lake, who had so many healings and people coming to him for ministry in Spokane in Washington State, that he trained a team of "Divine Healing Technicians" who then ministered with him, and as a result, 20,000 or more people got healed per year of their ministry. The modern "healing rooms" ministry is a continuance of his ministry. A contemporary healing teacher was able to obtain his DHT manual and used it to write his own manual to train his team. I purchased the manual, and used it in two healing conferences that I conducted here in my region. Several people reported being healed as a result of those conferences. The main principle of the DHT manual was to conduct the ministry in exactly the same way that Jesus did it. Therefore it departed from the Pentecostal/Charismatic methods, which were viewed as being ineffective. The method was based on the actual passages from the Gospels and Acts where Jesus and the Apostles were successfully healing people.

I have seen Youtube videos of street healing ministries, trained in the DHT way. I have seen people actually healed in front of my eyes. I was also in a healing meeting in Auckland where I saw people going up on the stage and being healed. I viewed a DVD of 130 people testifying to their healing of every type of sickness and disease that you can think of. In that meeting, a whole lot a people accepted Christ. More than I have ever seen in an evangelistic meeting where signs and wonders were absent.

I once ministered to a wife who was told she had a medical condition that prevented her from having children. She conceived that very night and subsequently gave birth to a healthy baby. My supervisor at work had arthritis in her knee. I laid hands on it and commanded the arthritis to leave. Three weeks later she went to the doctor who could not find any evidence of it in her knee. When she came back to the office and told us about it, one of my colleagues told us all that it happened "after Paul prayed for her". That was a very powerful testimony of the power of God in my own workplace!

Another woman who is a nurse strained her back at work and was in pain. I ministered to her at an equipping meeting, and the next week she came bounding over to me rejoicing that she had not felt any pain since.

Another woman in one of my healing conferences had a chronic back condition that caused her pain so that she had not had a whole nights sleep for a long time. After putting her in the hot seat and getting as many who wanted to minister to her to come and pray for her, the next day, the church pastor emailed me to say that she is rejoicing over having no pain and the best night's sleep she had had in a very long time.

A number of years ago, when God first told me to pray for anyone with a medical condition who came across my path, I got the idea to get anyone on CF who had a medical condition to lay their hands on their monitor and I would command healing for them. The most notable result was a woman who had a recurring kidney problem that attacked her every week. After praying for her, two months later she reported that she had not had any attacks for the previous two months. In that case, I was using the ministry of impartation where I was imparting healing through CF. The key was that the one ministered to needed to accept the healing by faith.

Although we are not seeing the mass healing meetings of yesteryear, I believe that in small groups, homes, streets, and other non-public places, the ministry of healing and still going on.

 

[stuart lawrence]

All that Paul and Peter preached was that Jesus is the Son of God and that He rose from the dead. Pretty simple. The Early Church prayed that signs and wonders be done in the Name of Jesus as well as boldness to preach the gospel.

Paul cited different reasons for preaching the gospel. He said that some were preaching out of a sincere desire to glorify Christ and others were preaching out of self promotion and jealousy. He did not condemn the latter but acknowledged that it the Word was getting out there, then he would not oppose it. Jesus said the same thing when a group other than His direct disciples were casting out demons. He said not to stop them because if they were not against Him, they were for Him.

I think that the main reason why signs and wonders are so rare in today's churches and evangelistic efforts is that preachers and leaders do not believe that they will happen. They may say they want them to happen, but they do not expect them and do not pray fervently for them. The teaching that signs and wonders are not for today have been so ingrained into the Church over 1500 years that the religious spirit, spirit of unbelief and lying spirits are very powerful to the point where many leaders and preachers cannot believe that miracles can happen in their churches. So, they try to carry on without them and make excuses about why signs and wonders are not happening, instead of going on their knees in desperate and fervent prayer for the faith to believe for miracles.

Even though the Corinthian church had big problems involving sin that was not even practiced among the pagans, the church still had miracles happening in it. Paul did say that some in that church were trading in just religious words without power, and when he came to visit them he wanted to see the power operating through them.

It was normal practice in the Early churches that signs, wonders and miracles took place. If they are not taking place today, then we can only conclude that most of our churches are abnormal when compared to the churches in Acts.

Paul and peter did indeed preach Jesus was the son of God and rose from the dead, but that message, the message of the new covenant was much explained in great detail as to what it meant, and the application of what it meant in the believers life. If they only preached Christ is the son of God and rose from the dead their letters would only gave contained a couple of paragraphs
An evangelist who saw tremendous miracles of healing in their services said, and I quote:

Anyone can see the power in their services I have seen in mine, but it costs everything

Unquote.

Not many are prepared to pay the true price to see such power.

But also:

So Paul and Barnabas spent considerable time there speaking boldly for the Lord, who confirmed the message of his grace by enabling them to do miraculous signs and wonders Acts 14:3

So the price must be paid, and the true message preached and explained, in order to see the power

 

[rocknanchor]

Very nice thread, unfortunately all too rare.

I would like to know in these instances where the signs do follow (Mk 16:17), do those successful ministries tend to say in unison beyond all fundamentals, what it is that helps generate longstanding endurance? It just seems if we first seek the kingdom of God and His righteousness’, the adding to of this formidable edge would not have eluded so many.

Then again, maybe I have missed the point too. Maybe I underestimate the life of God to supply those who are kept. Maybe it isn’t a matter of attaining, but a better use of time escaping this world’s influences on the potential workmen.

John G Lake, , I purchased, , his DHT manual

They did not train others in the ministry, nor did they show to the people that anyone filled with the Spirit could cast out demons and lay hands on the sick for healing.

Have you, or possibly have you designated any to do such training? Is his manual still readily available?

BTW, thank you for your work, and bringing the matter up in the first place!

 

[tturt]

Yeshua said look at the signs and wonders "If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him." John 10:37-38
Then the signs and wonders point to Him.

 

[Gideons300]

In Ezekiel chapter 36, the Bible gives a different take on what will move the seekers in the world to believe in the last days.

"....and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord when I shall be sanctified in you before their very eyes."

Signs and wonders can certainly confirm the words of the Lord, but if the lives of those bringing forth these signs do not line up with how God says His followers who believe shall walk,
let's not deceive ourselves. Danger lurks.

Do we not realize that holy hearts, lives that burn solely for Jesus, actions that are pure and full of love.....these are the real testimony that confirms to the lost that we are walking in the truth. Our lives are the Bible's they read. Are we truly giving our all, running our race as if there is only one prize. I say no..... at least not yet.

What good is it if we have miraculous signs and wonders but still live out our lives as compromised, worldly, one foot in-one foot out Christians? True revivals in the past have been spurred by holy leaders leading people onto the highway of holiness, where the joy wells up so easily, so powerfully, that men and women bound by sin want what we possess....or in truth want who possesses us.

Let us remember, in these last days, Satan will come with all sorts of lying wonders and deceive many. Those seeking signs rather than the giver of the signs will bite.... hook, line and sinker.

So how do we know who we should believe? Simple, according to the word.

Good trees bear good fruit.

If selfless love is not present in those with signs following, God says "Stop! Run!"

Was this not the case in the ministry of Jesus. He said as much. 'You seek me for the miracles, You like the free loaves and fishes", He said. Those followers did not last. They were those who had the good seed cast on hard ground and did not put down deep roots. It is time we checked the depth of the soil we are attempting to grow in, amen?

It was Christ's holy life and loving heart that drew the true believers. In the book of Acts, those outside the church said "Behold how they love one another!" Talk about the real tool for evangelizing the lost. Sadly, today we are content with a new mantra. "I am not perfect, just forgiven", and using it to somehow give validity to our secret sins and compromised walks, and Jesus weeps.

Holiness. Real spiritual fruits overflowing our of us. That, brother, is what we need, and THEN let the signs follow. But until it bothers us that our churches are satisfied with things just the way they are and put no effort on teaching holiness or even seeking God as to how to walk pleasing to Him (or in truth even believing it possible in this life), we will simply march on in our powerless take on what real Christianity is. Far too many of us are content to be half-hearted, forgiven children, playing with miracles perhaps, but living compromised lives with the world.....and thinking nothing is wrong with it.

We are fulfilling the characteristics of the Laodecian church almost line for line, content with being forgiven for our Achilles heel sins, yet often knowing we will do the same sins again with no guilt and worse no desire to really be changed. And all the while we reason "Thank God for grace that allows me to live like this!"

Do we think adding miracles to the mix will help that? In truth it will put a stamp of approval on our Americanized 90 minutes a week half-hearted Christianity, not lead people into seeking God for holy lives with broken, hungry hearts.

Blessings,

Gideon

 

[Heissonear]

In Ezekiel chapter 36, the Bible gives a different take on what will move the seekers in the world to believe in the last days.

"....and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord when I shall be sanctified in you before their very eyes."

Signs and wonders can certainly confirm the words of the Lord, but if the lives of those bringing forth these signs do not line up with how God says His followers who believe shall walk,
let's not deceive ourselves. Danger lurks.

Do we not realize that holy hearts, lives that burn solely for Jesus, actions that are pure and full of love.....these are the real testimony that confirms to the lost that we are walking in the truth. Our lives are the Bible's they read. Are we truly giving our all, running our race as if there is only one prize. I say no.

What good is it if we have miraculous signs and wonders but still live out our lives as compromised, worldly, one foot in-one foot out Christians? True revivals in the past have been spurred by holy leaders leading people onto the highway of holiness, where the joy wells up so easily, so powerfully, that men and women bound by sin want what we possess....or in truth want who possesses us.

Let us remember, in these last days, Satan will come with all sorts of lying wonders and deceive many. Those seeking signs rather than the giver of the signs will bite, hook, line and sinker.

So how do we know who we should believe? Simple, according to the word.

Good trees bear good fruit.

If selfless love is not present in those with signs following, God says "Stop! Run!"

Was this not the case in the ministry of Jesus. He said as much. 'You seek me for the miracles, You like the free loves and fishes." He said. Those did not last. They were those who had the good seed cast on hard ground and did not put down deep roots.

It was Christ's holy life and loving heart that drew the true believers. In the book of Acts, those outside the church said "Behold how they love one another!" Talk about the real tool for evangelizing the lost." Sadly, today we are content with a new mantra. "I am not perfect, just forgiven", and using it to somehow give validity to our secret sins and compromised walks.

Holiness. Real spiritual fruits overflowing our of us. That, brother, is what we need, but until it bothers us that our churches are satisfied with things just the way they are and put no effort on teaching holiness or even seeking God as to how to walk pleasing to Him, we will simply march on in our powerless take on what real Christianity is. Far too many of us are content to be half-hearted, forgiven children, playing with miracles perhaps, but living compromised lives with the world.....and thinking nothing is wrong with it.

We are fulfilling the characteristics of the Laodecian church almost line for line, content with being forgiven for our Achilles heel sins, yet often knowing we will do the same sins again. And all the while we reason "Thank God for grace that allows me to live like this!"

Do we think adding miracles to the mix will help that? In truth it will put a stamp of approval on our Americanized 90 minutes a week half hearted Christianity, not lead people into seeking God for holy lives with broken, hungry hearts.

Blessings,

Gideon

Well stated, with details.

One made pure in heart from the flesh verses Spirit, through yielding and obeying His Spirit within unto godliness and unto no idols before Him, will have pure lips/words in prayer before Him.

The witness of a changed life from the flesh verses Spirit, where the Spirit matures holiness as one dies to unholy fleshly lusts, cannot hide a scent of aroma of Him, absent of words.

And prayer for others, from love and turning the "work needed" completely over to Him, leads to breaking stronghold bonds and blessing within others. We just might not see it immediately or ever. But He answers prayers, and the power of prayer and a godly life supercedes gifts of signs and wonders. Godliness and holiness, and idol free life cannot be faked before Him, in the years we endure from the flesh verses Spirit yielding fruit.

In the last days many will present false signs and wonders. This is not that the Church should not perfect herself more for such from Heaven gifts, but people face "opposing powers" from below. There were plenty of fake manifested as I initially grew in the Lord, even a Predestination demon God made to manifest after weeks of hounding me to overtake a part within who I am and know. God made Him manifest and depart. It was a powerful spontaneous scene.

Are there not many following an anointing of Predestination? Well, I have presented a firsthand case of false works through an unholy spirit in the Last Days.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Very nice thread, unfortunately all too rare.

I would like to know in these instances where the signs do follow (Mk 16:17), do those successful ministries tend to say in unison beyond all fundamentals, what it is that helps generate longstanding endurance? It just seems if we first seek the kingdom of God and His righteousness’, the adding to of this formidable edge would not have eluded so many.

Then again, maybe I have missed the point too. Maybe I underestimate the life of God to supply those who are kept. Maybe it isn’t a matter of attaining, but a better use of time escaping this world’s influences on the potential workmen.


Have you, or possibly have you designated any to do such training? Is his manual still readily available?

BTW, thank you for your work, and bringing the matter up in the first place!

You can find Curry Blake's manual on his JGLM website. There are free copies around, but the best one is around $15US the last time I saw it. Once the money is paid, you can download it.

Another good manual with a similar structure is The Children's Bread by Simon Wilson and Cornel Marais. You can download a print copy or get it on Kindle.

I have used both with very satisfying results. I haven't achieved more than two or three people being healed, but the listeners appreciated the teaching. I find it difficult to convince ordinary church members to minister healing rather than have some "anointed" person do it. We have to get beyond that type of idol worship where the belief is that God uses only "anointed" people to minister healing. The Mark scriptures says that the signs will follow "those who believe". That means that any believer can lay hands on the sick and expect them to recover.

Download both manuals and study them through. They can be taught to small or large groups right out of the book. I did email Simon Wilson and ask his permission to teach from his manual. He was very happy to give it. He is a New Zealander who was living in Auckland at the time, and I met him a couple of times for coffee and spoke on the baptism with the Spirit at his home group. He also invited me to be part of the ministry team at the Reinhard Bonnke crusade in Auckland a couple of years ago. He now lives in Minnesota USA. You can find him on Facebook. He is a great guy, passionate about the healing ministry, and can testify to some remarkable healings in the different countries he has visited.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Well stated, with details.

One made pure in heart from the flesh verses Spirit, through yielding and obeying His Spirit within unto godliness and unto no idols before Him, will have pure lips/words in prayer before Him.

The witness of a changed life from the flesh verses Spirit, where the Spirit matures holiness as one dies to unholy fleshly lusts, cannot hide a scent of aroma of Him, absent of words.

And prayer for others, from love and turning the "work needed" completely over to Him, leads to breaking stronghold bonds and blessing within others. We just might not see it immediately or ever. But He answers prayers, and the power of prayer and a godly life supercedes gifts of signs and wonders. Godliness and holiness, and idol free life cannot be faked before Him, in the years we endure from the flesh verses Spirit yielding fruit.

In the last days many will present false signs and wonders. This is not that the Church should not perfect herself more for such from Heaven gifts, but people face "opposing powers" from below. There were plenty of fake manifested as I initially grew in the Lord, even a Predestination demon God made to manifest after weeks of hounding me to overtake a part within who I am and know. God made Him manifest and depart. It was a powerful spontaneous scene.

Are there not many following an anointing of Predestination? Well, I have presented a firsthand case of false works through an unholy spirit in the Last Days.

I fully agree with your post. It is important that we allow the Holy Spirit to continue the developmental work of sanctification in us. God uses people who are totally committed to Christ.

Concerning Predestination: I believe that God predestines those who decide to believe on Christ. He knows who will accept Christ and that is why we can read that our names or written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world. This is the mystery: We choose for Christ, then find out that we were predestined. It is important to note that no one is predestined to perish. That would be in conflict with God not willing that any perish but that all may come to repentance. A person perishes because they decide to ignore the invitation to receive Christ and eternal life.

Concerning signs and wonders. If we read the Gospels and Acts very carefully we will be able to tell the difference between genuine Holy Spirit signs and wonders and the false ones. Genuine signs and wonders will always glorify Christ, and prove the Gospel true, and cause people to either embrace Christ as Saviour or cause violent opposition to Christ as is seen in the Gospels and Acts. The Pharisees and Chief Priest saw the miracle of the healing of the blind man and acknowledged that it was a genuine miracle, but they plotted to kill Jesus anyway because they were jealous of Him. He had the goods and it showed them up because all they had was religious words, rituals and ceremonies.

False prophets and signs and wonders draw more attention to the person performing them than to Christ. They cause people to adhere to the person and encourage a type of idol worship of the person performing the signs and wonders. False prophets will prophesy in a way that says, "Look at me, I am a great prophet who will give you the word of God." This is why we should be very careful not to put anointed men and women up on a pedestal and think they have something special that the ordinary believer cannot have. That is idol worship and it leads people astray.

The demonised servant girl said the right words about Paul and Silas, but it was giving attention to those men instead of to Christ. It was putting Paul and Silas up on a pedestal. Paul knew it, got sick of it, and cast the devil out.

Many anointed ministries have fallen because they became too big for their boots and accepted the praise and adoration of people. In contrast, Smith Wigglesworth, the greatest healing ministry of them all, was disliked during his lifetime because he was gruff with people and pointed people away from himself and to Christ. This is why his ministry was genuine.

William Branham was taken before his time because he got away from his prophetic calling and tried to be an important Bible teacher. He was taken to minimise the damage to the body of Christ through his error teaching. Many Oneness groups (called Branhamites) tend to make Branham more important than Christ, and so they worship the man more than the Saviour and Lord. That is their error, and I wouldn't be surprised if many false prophets appeared from their midst.

 

[Alithis]

Great thread Oscar.
May I add a few thoughts...
I'll assume it ok lol.

First,love jglm.curry Blake etc. Great stuff.
Agree with everything you've said but with only one slight difference that I think you May have covered ?
You mentioned the lack of the manifestation of the power (signs and wonders) in the church.
And there is problem number one.
They are not meant to be "in"a box.living things die when you put them in a box.
We are the church We are supposed to Go out..out to the harvest out to the world...etc ..you get the point

 

[rocknanchor]

The Mark scriptures says that the signs will follow "those who believe". That means that any believer can lay hands on the sick and expect them to recover.

Eh, except for the element of selectivity of the Holy Spirit's choosing from member to member, gift to gift, or, "do all have the gift"?.

As you reported, signs and wonders such as likened to the sign to the unbeliever; "tongues", are not to be forbid are welcomed. The welcomed vs the un-welcomed failings of the flesh I don't think should enter here. If we are at this point, past seeking the kingdom, past proving your ministry, the Councilor would already have responded from the draw down.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Great thread Oscar.
May I add a few thoughts...
I'll assume it ok lol.

First,love jglm.curry Blake etc. Great stuff.
Agree with everything you've said but with only one slight difference that I think you May have covered ?
You mentioned the lack of the manifestation of the power (signs and wonders) in the church.
And there is problem number one.
They are not meant to be "in"a box.living things die when you put them in a box.
We are the church We are supposed to Go out..out to the harvest out to the world...etc ..you get the point

Yep. Out in the world will be where the signs and wonders will be.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Eh, except for the element of selectivity of the Holy Spirit's choosing from member to member, gift to gift, or, "do all have the gift"?.

As you reported, signs and wonders such as likened to the sign to the unbeliever; "tongues", are not to be forbid are welcomed. The welcomed vs the un-welcomed failings of the flesh I don't think should enter here. If we are at this point, past seeking the kingdom, past proving your ministry, the Councilor would already have responded from the draw down.

Read my thread about Mark 16. It seems I am contradicting myself. I ran two healing conferences where I encouraged every person there to lay hands on sick people for healing. I will have to do some more thinking about that!

 

[Kiterius]

To unbelievers, no sign is enough. To believers, no sign is necessary.