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Sign of Jonah?

Discussion in 'Christian Scriptures' started by Jonaitis, Sep 24, 2021.

  1. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Pilgrim

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    So I noticed something I had never noticed before in the gospel accounts. In Matthew 12:39, for example, Jesus said to the scribes and Pharisees,
    However, Jesus never appeared to anyone but his disciples after his resurrection. I'm a little lost with this statement. What was the sign of the prophet Jonah to this "evil and adulterous generation"?
     
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  2. Abaxvahl

    Abaxvahl Well-Known Member

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    The Resurrection sign can be given to someone even if they have not seem Him appear, that is the way we ourselves in the most part came to believe. So also it could be given to them that way.
     
  3. d taylor

    d taylor Well-Known Member

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    The sing of Jonah has to do with the rejection of Jesus as The promised Messiah from the prophecies of The Tanakh, this is found in Matthew 12 many know this as the blasphemy of The Holy spirit/ unforgivable sin.

    Dr Arnold Fruchtenbaum has the best teaching on this, here is a few pages from a book i have of his. The part i am posting from a book of his, is addressing the sign of Jonah.

    Matthew 12 (c)+.jpg

     
  4. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I have noticed a tendency in modern Christendom to take parables, figures, parallels, and allegories farther than they were meant to go.

    The "sign" may have been merely that, and not even demonstrated to those evil and adulterous ones to whom Jesus was referring. Jonah was in the belly of the fish, Jesus in the belly of the earth; both came back out. Maybe that was all he was using —it seems reasonable that should be enough for a sign that he is who he said he is. The scribes and Pharisees were handed a riddle, and there is no need for them to have it solved, for it to have been handed them. Jesus said it for our sake, every bit as much as for their sake.
     
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  5. Jeshu

    Jeshu Bought by His Blood Supporter

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    i think that when we seek a sign then we experience the darkness Jonah did in the great fish spiritually. For seeking signs and wonders proceed out of an unfaithful heart for we don't trust the truth and this harvest us three days of darkness.

    Jesus is in the grave throughout this time and doubts, fears, and insecurity about your faith in Him will be attacking full board.

    At least that is what happened to me when i asked Him for a sign.

    Peace.
     
  6. chad kincham

    chad kincham Well-Known Member

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    Jesus made Jonah in the fish belly for three days and nights, the sign of His own death, burial and resurrection after three days and nights.

    For one thing, this means Jonah died in the fish belly and was resurrected.

    Maranatha
     
  7. Noah_W

    Noah_W Preferring logic over emotion

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    Pilgrim, if I understand your post correctly, your statement "never appeared to anyone but disciples" is connected to v38 where the Jews demanded "Master, we would see a sign from thee."

    It seems you are reading a narrow definition of "see" into the verse. I've found it helpful to go to English dictionaries and also a NT Greek dictionary to study how a word can be understood. By going to the Merriam-Webster, Strong's and then Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon I read the following:

    Merriam-Webster from onelook.com

    3 : to be or become aware of (something)
    // He saw the opportunity and took it.
    // He only sees [=notices] my faults.
    // I saw a big difference in her behavior.
    // It was easy to see that she was lying.
    // Can't you see that he needs help?
    // Anyone can see that they're in love.
    // I can see there has been a mistake.

    From Strong's Greek Dictionary on "see"
    G1492
    "properly to see (literally or figuratively); by implication (in the perfect only) to know:"

    From Thayer's, "eido"
    1. to see
    a. to perceive with the eyes
    b. to perceive by any of the senses
    c. to perceive, notice, discern, discover

    It appears that you are understanding "see" in the most literal manner or definition, when the other definitions fit the context better. But, I do not recall any statement in the NT that says no Scribe or Pharisee saw Jesus after the resurrection, so I leave it at that; unless I've overlooked a clear statement on it. Paul states that Jesus appeared to the 12 and then to over 500 of the brethren, but I'm hesitant to be dogmatic that He did not see others. This is my approach to such matters.
     
  8. Hazelelponi

    Hazelelponi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Being there were many witnesses to the resurrection event, there was enough information for it to be said it was a sign for them.

    It's a sign for us and we can't go speak to one of the witnesses of the resurrection right here, right now. So if its a sign for us it was definitely moreso a sign for those living in that day.

    Why is it a sign for us? Because we aren't being asked to believe one person's account, but rather hundreds of accounts all of which could have been checked at that time. Hundreds of eyewitnesses, where only two or three is legally upholding, is definitely by a preponderance of the evidence.

    It was enough witnesses to carry this sign thousands of years future. If it does this now, what kind of a sign was it then, when they could walk out their front door and talk to a few witnesses?
     
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  9. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Pilgrim

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    I appreciate your responses, and they were insightful!
     
  10. EmethAlethia

    EmethAlethia Newbie

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    I don't remember the verse that says Jonah died and was resurected. Can you point it out for me?
     
  11. hedrick

    hedrick Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Lets look at the original context. The people of Nineveh did not, as far as we can tell from the book, respond to Jonah’s escape from the fish.They responded to his preaching of repentance. This is reflected in Luke's version of the story.

    I think Jesus is comparing himself to Jonah. He is preaching that the people need to repent or a disaster will come on them, just as Jonah did. The whole discussion in Luke 11:31-32 focuses on their response to Jonah’s call for repentance.

    Why Jonah and not another prophet, since all of the prophets preached repentance? I’d suggest that it’s intended as an unflattering comparison, implying that the people he is talking to are worse than Nineveh, which was a city of foreigners who were traditional enemies of Israel. Also, the comparison wouldn’t have worked with most of the prophets, since the people didn’t suddenly put on sackcloth in response to their preaching.

    In the NT context, Jesus' answer to the demand for a sign is that no sign will be given other than his preaching.
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2021
  12. EmethAlethia

    EmethAlethia Newbie

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    So I noticed something I had never noticed before in the gospel accounts. In Matthew 12:39, for example, Jesus said to the scribes and Pharisees,

    However, Jesus never appeared to anyone but his disciples after his resurrection.

    1Co 15:5 and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6 After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep; 7 then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles; 8 and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also.

    I'm a little lost with this statement. What was the sign of the prophet Jonah to this "evil and adulterous generation"?

    The Jews were looking for their Messiah, praying for one to save them from the Romans. Yet, here He is and the very leadership who profess to be seeking Him and who state that they will be His number one supporter are the very ones rejecting Him at every turn. They ask for a sign that He is who He claims to be and He gives them one. All of His enemies knew His claims to tear down "This" temple and I will rebuild it in three days ... and that is why those that hated him had a guard posted on His tomb.

    That said, a lot of people want to discard this passage or spiritualize it. After all, how do you get three days and three nights out of In the tomb at Friday dusk, and out of the tomb before dawn on Sunday, as the women showed up at the tomb before sunrise and Jesus was already gone. But then, a lot of people only go as far as getting the part of the data they need to believe as they choose. You see the scriptures say that the day Jesus died on was a high Sabbath, not the regular Friday dusk till Saturday Sabbath.

    That "High Sabbath" was Passover. Passover is based on moon cycles, not on days of the week. The feast of first fruits is based on days of the week. it is the first day of the week after Passover. But here's the thing. Passover was never on a Friday during the 5 year period all scholars agree Jesus died within. It was on a Wednesday at dusk 3 times though.

    Given that it couldn't be on Friday dusk-Saturday dusk, and knowing that all of the Jews who want to reject Jesus as their Messiah acknowledge that He said He was going to rise "after 3 days", and in this passage in Mark, "Three days AND three nights", and that they put a guard on the tomb to prevent it, they would have been more than happy to point out that Jesus fell short of His three days and nights prophesy, making Him a false prophet who should have been stoned to death for His own sins ... But ... that didn't happen.

    So, we know when Jesus rose from the dead ... "Early on the first day of the week.". Problem. Our early on the first day of the week is when the women showed up at the tomb ... i.e. just before dawn. But that's not early on the first day of the week for a Jew. Their days start at dusk. Early on the first day of the week is at dusk, right after the normal Sabbath ended. The women showed up much closer to "midday" from the perspective of when the days began and ended.

    So, lets think it through. Jesus is in the tomb at dusk, Each dusk ends a day and starts a night. Three days and three nights requires:

    Wednesday Night, Thursday Night, Friday night/
    Thursday day, Friday day, Saturday day.

    If Jesus was in the tomb past dusk on the first day of the week(Saturday dusk) He's a false prophet same as if He was not in there long enough to make it 3 days and 3 nights. Thus, because none of Jesus detractors had anything to say about Him going under or over time, We have good Wednesday and Easter Saturday, with Jesus rising "early on the first day of the week", the "first fruits" of the dead since He rose early on that feast day.

    So yes, the sign of the prophet Jonah, and three days and three nights was an essential prophesy, and if Jesus didn't complete it exactly as He said, Jesus was a sinner and needed a Savior for Himself ... but it happened exactly as He stated.
     
  13. chad kincham

    chad kincham Well-Known Member

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    Jesus made Jonah in the fish belly a SIGN of His own death, burial and resurrection after three days and nights, thus either Jonah died and was resurrected, or Jesus didn’t.


    Jonah prayed from Sheol - the place that departed spirits of the dead go:


    Jon 2:2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell (Sheol) cried I, and thou heardest my voice.


    That Jonah died in the fish belly and went down into the earth, is confirmed here:


    Jon 2:6 I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.


    And corruption is what happens when a dead body rots.


    So Jonah went to Sheol, and went DOWN to the BOTTOM of the underwater MOUNTAINS in the sea, and was enclosed by the EARTH, and even started rotting.


    Here’s verse 2:6 again in modern English:


    Jon 2:6 I had sunk down below the underwater mountains; I knew that forever, I would be a prisoner there. But, you, LORD God, rescued me from that pit.


    Thus we know that:


    Jonah died.


    Jonah went into the pit, into Sheol.


    Jonah’s soul went below the mountains into the earth.


    Jonah’s dead body began to corrupt (rot).


    Jonah was resurrected after three days, as a SIGN of Jesus’ own resurrection after three days.
     
  14. EmethAlethia

    EmethAlethia Newbie

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    From looking at the context, he was alive enough to pray.

    Jon 2:1 Then Jonah prayed to the LORD his God from the stomach of the fish, 2 and he said, "I called out of my distress to the LORD, And He answered me. I cried for help from the depth of Sheol; You heard my voice. 3 "For You had cast me into the deep, Into the heart of the seas, And the current engulfed me. All Your breakers and billows passed over me. 4 "So I said, 'I have been expelled from Your sight. Nevertheless I will look again toward Your holy temple.' 5 "Water encompassed me to the point of death. The great deep engulfed me, Weeds were wrapped around my head. 6 "I descended to the roots of the mountains. The earth with its bars was around me forever, But You have brought up my life from the pit, O LORD my God. 7 "While I was fainting away, I remembered the LORD, And my prayer came to You, Into Your holy temple.

    Seems to be quite a bit of figurative language. I am sure the experience was "hell" but from what I see from the wording he was alive enough to pray. Not sure I can be animate about it but the awareness he had of his experience and the still praying part leads me to believe that he was alive and never died, unless there is another verse somewhere.

    It's certainly not necessary for him to die for the analogy to work. Three days and three nights in the fish, three days and three nights in the earth/tomb. Just asking, by the way. It's the only way to learn.
     
  15. throughfireytrial

    throughfireytrial Truth-Lover Supporter

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    The sign of the prophet Jonah is centered around the three days. Just as Jonah spent three days in the large fish so Christ would spend three days in the grave. It helps to have figured out from the many usages of the number three in the Scriptures that 3 is used to signify God's purpose. Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up again is another sign Jesus gave which is really signifying the same message...resurrection...and that He is thus the Messiah. It is an evil and adulterous nation which rejects all the prophesy He fulfilled and miraculous signs yet asks for another sign...profound unbelief. But, the final sign He is indeed the Christ is resurrection.
    Jesus appeared to more than His disciples. He appeared also to more than 500 other believers at the same time...this is given us in I Corinthian 15:6.
     
  16. hedrick

    hedrick Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Only in Matthew. No three days in Luke’s version. That is almost certainly closer to the original.
     
  17. throughfireytrial

    throughfireytrial Truth-Lover Supporter

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    The Gospels round one another out for a full picture, but I see your objection. You are not however taking the statement of Jesus, "destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up again."
    My interpretation carries wide spread acceptance among the churches...just fyi...I didn't make it up.
     
  18. hedrick

    hedrick Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Destroy this temple is from John. I don’t see any connection to Jonah. I didn’t deny that Jesus talked about his death, just that that’s not the sign of Jonah.

    Lots of churches are afraid to tell their members what current scholarship actually says, or are living in denial.

    The biggest problem with Matthew’s exegesis is that it ignores the intent of the saying. Jesus is clearly refusing to give them a miraculous sign. It can’t be a pointer to his miraculous resurrection. There’s also no reason to think in the original story that the Ninevites even knew about the fish. They repented because of Jonahs preaching. Jesus is refusing a miracle, telling them that they’ll have to listen to his preaching. Not to mention the fact that Luke doesn’t understand it the same way as Matthew.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2021
  19. throughfireytrial

    throughfireytrial Truth-Lover Supporter

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    When one considers the three days and the signs that are given with 3 days throughout Scripture one can comprehend that 3 is God's purpose...Jesus was crucified and raised to life in three days...God's greatest purpose for us/resurrection and heaven...much as 7 is symbolic of completion, always forever...
    I am sorry you have found such disappointment with churches...there may be no perfect church out there, but there is a huge volume of Truth within them to those who can accept it.
    Going back to number three...there is a connection with "destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up again" and the Jonah account of being three days in the belly of a large fish. People of the day understood the three was a sign for them and that is why Jesus gave it to them. He is pointing to His resurrection which they do not yet understand...the Holy Spirit was not yet given as Apostle John points out.
     
  20. Aussie Pete

    Aussie Pete Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The sign was that Lord Jesus would die and rise again after 3 days. The empty tomb was the obvious witness, so much so that the High Priest bribed the Roman guards to say that they fell asleep and the disciples took the body. (Matthew 28:12). So those who sought a sign got what Lord Jesus said they would get. Frank Morrison, a sceptical lawyer, decided to prove once and for all that Jesus did not rise from the dead. He investigated thoroughly and realised that Lord Jesus did indeed rise from the dead. He wrote "Who moved the stone?"

    The High Priest tried to cover up the empty tomb. And failed.
     
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