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Shroud of Turin proven genuine by REAL science

Discussion in 'Creation & Evolution' started by RCC, Sep 28, 2002.

  1. VOW

    VOW Moderator

    +15
    Catholic
    Married
    To Rufus:

    The application of the Shroud certainly goes against common thought; however, you'll also find that Jesus was buried in a HURRY. The women were the ones who usually prepared a body for burial, and because of the pending Sabbath, the important thing was to simply get Him into the tomb. In fact, Mary Magdalene was RETURNING to the tomb to finish the preparation of Jesus' body. He had not been washed nor anointed with the typical burial preparations.

    As to you draping a sheet on you, I do commend you for your diligence. However, I'm willing to bet your sheets are cotton, and of a much finer weave than anything available in Palestine in the first century. A stiffer fiber and a coarser weave would create more of a "tenting" effect than a 20th century bedsheet.


    Peace be with you,
    ~VOW
     
  2. VOW

    VOW Moderator

    +15
    Catholic
    Married
    To Rufus:

    The theory proposed is that at the moment of Resurrection, the Body of Christ emitted radiation of some sort. Light and radiation both exhibit the law of inverse proportion: the further away, the less-bright the light.

    And the 3-D image, especially along the sides of the head, are merely estimated. It is only at the definitive contact points that the Z-coordinates are known. Because of the flexibility of the linen, you aren't doing to have an equidistant relationship between the body and the cloth.

    In photogrammetry, the photo plate (which is comparable to the linen) is FLAT. By plugging in known XYZ-coordinates, and using a stereo viewer, you can create contour maps of surprising accuracy. If you didn't use the stereo images, though....it would just be a really good guess.


    Peace,
    ~VOW
     
  3. RufusAtticus

    RufusAtticus PopGen Grad Student

    +9
    But all four gospels are in agreement that he was wrapped in linen not draped in it. Does your Bible say something different?

    If I tried it with burlap, would that be stiff enough?

    But I would imagine that this hypothesis doesn't propose that it was a weak light does it? I would imagine that something as powerful as a god coming back to life would produce a lot of radiation. Souljah was comparing it to an atomic bomb. With radiation that intense, a couple inches won't make much difference. But I guess we are getting ahead of ourselves, has any reasearch been done to determine if the image on the shroud is consistant with a radiation burn of linen.

    Okay. Let me put this another way. How do the error values on the sides of the head compare to the error values for the eye sockets or chin? Does the book you are using give you those?
     
  4. VOW

    VOW Moderator

    +15
    Catholic
    Married
    To Rufus:

    FIRST I gotta find the doggone book! If my daughter loaned it out, I'm gonna pound her, LOL!

    As for the word "wrapped," I'm not fluent in Hebrew. However, I do suggest that the TRANSLATORS may have chosen the word "wrapped," for cultural reasons. I also am not completely familiar with Jewish burial customs, especially 1st century ones.

    However, I do point out that Mary Magdelene WAS returning to the tomb to finish the preparation of the body. This event was remarkable enough to make mention of it, and there also is emphasis of the HASTE to bury Jesus before the Sabbath.

    As for the *radiation,* well, I'm not familiar enough with radioactivity to know how much of a zap is necessary to bring the dead back to life. My personal opinion would be that a nuclear bomb magnitude wouldn't be necessary, but then, what do I know? I do know that a radiation of some sort has been suggested by those who have studied the Shroud, because the BODY image (not the blood stains) is scorched into the fabric. The scorching doesn't even penetrate to the center of the thread core, either; it's just in the very outer layers. Paint, I would think, should soak into the thread.

    My personal take on all this? Well, when the Shroud was first "discovered" (as a complete, full-body image), radiation was unknown. 3-D digitization of images was also unknown. So was detailed criminal forensics, such as blood stain and blood spatter analysis.

    For the most part, the population of Europe was Christian. The Renaissance had not arrived, and people kept pretty close to the Church and its guidance.

    The true arguments about the very existence of God and of His Son didn't really explode until the age of Industrialization. And with the Modern Age, hedonism has become more of a belief than belief in God.

    So, along with all the trappings of the Modern Age, we also have a pretty good knowledge of radiation and 3-D digitization and computer imaging.

    It's like the clues in the Shroud have been waiting for the Modern Age.

    And that's my take on it. YMMV.


    Peace,
    ~VOW
     
  5. Chris H

    Chris H Member

    240
    +0
    Agnostic
    Married
    US-Democrat
    A big thanks to both Vow and Rufus. I'm REALLY enjoying this thread!

    Chris
     
  6. DocBrown

    DocBrown New Member

    69
    +0
    Everyone does understand why some fight this so much right? I mean if they accept it as proof positive then they would also be forced to believe Jesus really existed. And if that be so then there is a lot of other things that would fall into question (could other parts of the Bible be true?). One of the biggest ones would be that we are answerable for our actions here in this life. You can bet some here will fight to the death if need be to disprove (in their minds) that this not the burial cloth of Jesus.

    But then everyone already knows this I'm sure. So I'll back away again, I really don't have the time to debate it but I enjoy watching some try everything and anything they can to not accept this. It amazing me.

     
     
  7. RufusAtticus

    RufusAtticus PopGen Grad Student

    +9
    DocBrown,

    Umm, I already think Jesus existed. He was just an ordinary man like Mohamad and Buddha. I know The Bear already thinks he exists and that he was the Son of God/God himself.

    Hmm, where does that leave your argument?
     
  8. npetreley

    npetreley pumpkin sailor

    +2
    Existence is not the only issue, as I think you already know. Jesus is offensive to some, and the idea that there is this shroud that might not only be evidence of His existence, but to the supernatural event of His resurrection, is very offensive. That is also why we Christians are offensive to some.

     
  9. RufusAtticus

    RufusAtticus PopGen Grad Student

    +9
    So the reason you doubt the translation is that you think the burial preperation was hasty. From what I can tell, the haste is that they wanted to bury him that day, not in ten minutes. I don't see why that means they couldn't spend the time to prepare his body properly. To me John clearly indicates that they did take their time to prepare the body. If you had to prepare the body of your lord, would you just toss it in the nearest tomb and throw a sheet on it?

    Furthermore, according to Mark 16:1, Mary Magdelene was returning to the tomb to anoint the body with spices, not to finish the wrappings. So I don't think you can use that to claim that they never finished wrapping the body.

    Does the book give references to studies that verify that they are scorch marks? I'd like to read them. Furthermore, do you know of studies that tested how much radiation is needed to scorch linen and the marks it leaves behind?
     
  10. Caedmon

    Caedmon kawaii Supporter

    +538
    Catholic
    US-Others
    This is an interesting discussion. I haven't read the whole thread, but I will at a later time. The radiation issue is rather interesting. What frequency / wavelength of radiation is claimed to have caused the searing? Are we talking "easy bake" infrared here? lol... sorry, physics humor... :p
     
  11. VOW

    VOW Moderator

    +15
    Catholic
    Married
    To Rufus:

    It's hard to anoint a body that is swaddled in wrappings. I'm sure the Disciples of Jesus WANTED to give His body the proper care, but the laws of the Sabbath were taking precedence. We actually don't KNOW how long it took to get His body to the tomb. Who knows what kind of finagling Joseph of Arimathea had to do with the Romans to get them to release the Body for burial?

    The Shroud is more than just "a sheet" thrown over the Figure. It is about 14 feet long, and it was laid underneath the Figure, and then pulled over the head to cover the length of the Figure. It was a very loose type of wrapping. There is some evidence that a rudimentary preparation was done. Coins appear to have been placed over the eyes, and the wrists have been tied together. This would have been done to counteract the beginning of rigor mortis, which would have kept the arms outstretched.

    Jewish law is very strict. ALL WORK ceases at sundown, and burial is forbidden on the Sabbath. The Shroud gives evidence that this Body was buried with haste.

    I don't know if any comparable linen was scorched to simulate the same markings on the shroud. I DO know, though, that the body markings outside of the bloodstains were determined to NOT be pigment of any kind.

    I REALLY need to find that blasted book!


    Peace be with you,
    ~VOW
     
  12. RufusAtticus

    RufusAtticus PopGen Grad Student

    +9
    It's not at all. It's done all the time. The anointing is just done on the prepared body. In many instances it has pratical uses, the wrappings soak up the spices etc. which can help perserve the body for burial or display. That is one reasons such customs developed.

    So you don't know how long it took, yet you know they didn't have enough time to completely wrap the body. They took the time to place the shroud under him, yet not to even bind the cloth to the body.

    Also there is another problem with the shroud. John makes it clear that they used strips of linen, not one big sheet. It doesn't seem that the shroud of Turin fits that.

    Umm you can't use the shroud to prove its own authencity. In other words, if you want to say the shroud is in agreement with Jesus's burial you can't use the shroud itself to describe his burial. Specifically, you can't use the shroud to prove that it was a hasty burial.

    Since you say you are looking for it, I can wait.
     
  13. kaotic

    kaotic Learn physics

    +3
    Agnostic
    US-Democrat
    to VOW,

    You are not understanding what i am saying.  There can never be real proof that the shroud is the one that was laid over jesus, and you have to have real proof.  Thats why so many people like my self don't believe in GOD there is no proof.  And without DNA from jesus the shroud can never be said that its the one that was laid over jesus if jesus was real. 

    Logic dictates that there can be no god and Logic dictates that without real DNA from jesus there shroud is just old junk.  So real Proof is what has to be found and it will never be found cause there is no dna from jesus, and say they find dns on the shroud after all this time that can't be proven that its jesus it could be anyone.

    I am in college learning physics, and in physics its all about proof, and if you don't have proof you don't have anything.

    -david 
     
  14. kaotic

    kaotic Learn physics

    +3
    Agnostic
    US-Democrat
    People believe the Bible because it tells you what you want to hear.

    As far as the so-called existance of Jesus...well, let's stipulateb that for a second. So what? There are problems with going from the existance of Jesus to the belief that the Bible is true. Forst, we know for a 100% certainty that people like Uri Geller(the spoon bender) exist, so should we then take every positive word said about them to be true? Second, there is historical evidence for Robin Hood. Unfortunately, the facts and the legends only bear a passing relation to each other; Robin Hood was a murdering lout in real life.

    (Yes, prototype of Jesus may existed, but the miracles he performed (according to legend) contradict basic laws of nature (physics) - like gravity, conservation of matter, etc and thus could not take place.



    Also, death by definition is lack of life, so there is no life in the lack of life (after death), so you may quit worrying about afterlife and thus better enjoy this (and the only) life till it is too late.)

     
     
  15. Chris†opher Paul

    Chris†opher Paul Based on a True Story

    +4
    We are NOT trying to prove it real, we ARE trying to prove it isnt a HOAX.
     
  16. Chris†opher Paul

    Chris†opher Paul Based on a True Story

    +4
    Yes, despite all the other problems with it being a painting, this one is a big issue. Paint would soak into the linen, it wouldnt be on the outside fibers only.

    Also, there are no brush strokes at all and the images has no edges, it just fades, etc. I could go on and on but I suspect I will start yelling again and disrupt this thread.

    (My wife doesnt like me watching films on the Shroud cause I get all worked up yelling at the critics on the TV like some kind of lunatic)
     
  17. Chris†opher Paul

    Chris†opher Paul Based on a True Story

    +4
    If he was actually WRAPPED, then Mary Magdelene would have had to unwrap Him to annoint Him with oil, etc. Joseph and Nic knew He had to be annointed, according to their customs, so, knowing that it would have to be done later (after the Sabbath) they did not wrap Him like they would have if He had already been annointed.

    Make sense?

    They simply drapped it loosely on Him and planned to have him annointed and wrapped on Sunday. But alas, when Mary came to do it, He was already Risen.

    There were several pieces. The Shroud is the main one.
     
  18. Chris†opher Paul

    Chris†opher Paul Based on a True Story

    +4
    There is proof if you want it. Just ask Him, I did. And now I have proof. *shrug*

    Wha? Please explain your logic showing there is no God. Also please take this to another thread, so that this one remains on topic, thanks!
     
  19. VOW

    VOW Moderator

    +15
    Catholic
    Married
    To Rufus:

    Quibbling about the little tiny details when neither you nor I are archaeologists or first century Palestinian scholars is fruitless. The Bible is very brief in its description of the actual burial of Jesus, except to stress that it was nearing sundown on Friday, and then to mention again that on Sunday Mary Magdeline was coming to anoint his body with spices.

    The absence of preparation was actually foreshadowed when he was anointed by the woman with the costly spikenard in Bethany. She covered his head with ointment and bathed his feet with her tears. Jesus admonished those who claimed this was a waste of money, and He told them she was preparing him for his burial. Souljah has pointed out the soiled condition of the Figure's feet.

    For believers, this is just another point of verification. For nonbelievers, it's another obscure detail.


    To Seesaw:

    Study physics to your heart's content. It was in my study of the sciences that I found verification of the existence of God.


    Peace be with you,
    ~VOW
     
  20. RufusAtticus

    RufusAtticus PopGen Grad Student

    +9
    No, anointing is typically done on wrapped bodies too: anoint (w/ oil)-wrap-anoint (w/ spices) again. Thus you can't say that because they were going back to anoint that he was obviously unwrapped.

    I'm curious how you think that the Shroud of Turin is consistant with John, who clearly states that he was prepared with strips of linen?
     
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