Shredding the myth of Election by foreseen faith one verse at a time

[CCWoody]

A few days ago, while faithfully plodding along with my daily devotion to study/ read the Bible every year, I came across this little verse which seemed to me to be of no real import the the titanic struggle we Reformed have against those who reject the gospel truths regarding Election. However, after careful consideration of this verse, it became rather evident that this verse is a fantastic one to reveal that Election by foreseen faith cannot be Biblical. Now, I'm not the brightest one on the block, and it is entirely possible that a great many of my fellow Calvinists have already grasped the wisdom of this verse. So, for the benefit of all, and in the interest of true Scripture discussion Bible study style, I'm not going to immediately tell what I've seen in this verse. Of course, I do risk someone letting the cat out of the bag. I guess I'll take that risk.

While the Arminians are laying out their same old arguments concerning foreknowledge being precognition, I'll actually work up a little commentary on the verse and post it to the Bible study page.



Have fun. Here is the verse:

Rom 11:4 GB

(4) But what saith the answere of God to him? I haue reserued vnto my selfe seuen thousand men, which haue not bowed the knee to Baal.


​

 

[cygnusx1]

A few days ago, while faithfully plodding along with my daily devotion to study/ read the Bible every year, I came across this little verse which seemed to me to be of no real import the the titanic struggle we Reformed have against those who reject the gospel truths regarding Election. However, after careful consideration of this verse, it became rather evident that this verse is a fantastic one to reveal that Election by foreseen faith cannot be Biblical. Now, I'm not the brightest one on the block, and it is entirely possible that a great many of my fellow Calvinists have already grasped the wisdom of this verse. So, for the benefit of all, and in the interest of true Scripture discussion Bible study style, I'm not going to immediately tell what I've seen in this verse. Of course, I do risk someone letting the cat out of the bag. I guess I'll take that risk.

While the Arminians are laying out their same old arguments concerning foreknowledge being precognition, I'll actually work up a little commentary on the verse and post it to the Bible study page.





Have fun. Here is the verse:

Rom 11:4 GB


(4) But what saith the answere of God to him? I haue reserued vnto my selfe seuen thousand men, which haue not bowed the knee to Baal.



​

Hi ccwoody , I always have liked that verse ....

what I see is that throughout the previous verses The Jews are blamed for their sin and then The Holy Spirit by the hand of Paul changes direction , now we see God is responsible for the remnant , not themselves!


ps , cat still in the bag

 

[Van]

Understanding Romans 11:4

But what is the divine response to him [Elijah]? I have kept for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed their knee to Baal.

The first thing that jumps out is this is an answer to a question posed in a previous verse, so in order to understand the verse, we must look at the surrounding passage.

In verse 11:1, Paul says God has not rejected His people, for Paul is an Israelite. So the question in view is who are God's people and how does one become a member of that group?

In verse two, we see that God has not rejected His people who He foreknew, which means which He planned for sometime in the past. Next, Paul says "or do you not know what scripture says." Paul is referencing 1 Kings 19:9-21. In verse 14 of that passage, Elijah says that the sons of Israel have foresaken the covenant, so we can draw the conclusion that folks who have forsaken God are not part of God's people even though they are decendents of Abraham. In verse 17 we see that God using chosen men as instruments of His plan, will destroy all those who have foresaken Him. Yet, verse 18, God will leave 7000 in Israel, which are all the knees that have not foresaken Him, have not bowed their knees to Baal.

In summary, God's people are believers who live by faith.

How does this impact on our understanding of Election of folks by foreseen faith. Well God's choice was based on demonstrated faith, not foreseen faith, and God's choice was based on the faith of folks living, not folks who have not been created.

In conclusion, this passage from Romans 11 sheds both Election of foreseen individuals unconditionally and Election of foreseen individuals of faith. It teaches the true doctrine of scripture, Election of individuals during their life based on their faith.

 

[CCWoody]

God is responsible for the remnant , not themselves!


ps , cat still in the bag

True, and yes, the cat is still in the bag as to exactly why this verse shreds the Arminian position of conditional election.

 

[CCWoody]

How does this impact on our understanding of Election of folks by foreseen faith. Well God's choice was based on demonstrated faith....

Asserted, yet not demonstrated by the Scripture. You are merely reading your own presumption as to why this group of people was chosen. The problem is that if this verse teaches that Election is based upon what these individuals did "during their life" as you will explicitly state in a few sentences, then you make for yourself a salvation of meritorious human works instead of election by pure grace. And that does make a mockery of the name "election of grace."

... , not foreseen faith, and God's choice was based on the faith of folks living, not folks who have not been created.

Foreseen faith and demonstrated faith are a distinction without a difference in this verse. For the faith which the Lord forsees is the same faith which will be demonstrated in due time.

That is, unless you are an Open Theist and deny God's Omniscience.

In conclusion, this passage from Romans 11 sheds both Election of foreseen individuals unconditionally and Election of foreseen individuals of faith. It teaches the true doctrine of scripture, Election of individuals during their life based on their faith.

Actually this passage demonstrates that Election is by grace, not by demonstrated faith, which would be meritorious human works. The Calvinist doctrine of Election is proven by this verse. All comers who bring their meritorious human works Election are clearly told by Paul that they are wrong.

Hey, cygnus, do you see what I see about how this verse shreds Arminian human works election?

 

[Van]

The passage is clear, and I have made no assertion not shown by the text.

God choice was based on the demonstrated faith of the 7000. The verse does not say I caused the folks to have faith and then chose them. It simply says God's people are those who have faith in God. There is no presumption, the text says God will leave all the knees that have not bowed - it does not get any more explicit than that.

Next you move on to your next fallacy, that faith is a work. Again, scripture is crystal, faith is demonstrated by works, but faith is not works. To trust in Christ is what scripture says we should do. Whoever believes in Him shall not perish, your faith has saved you, and on and on.

Scripture is clear, God chooses those who love him. This truth is demonstrated from the beginning of the Bible to the end.

Next, you make the absurd statement there is no difference between foreseen faith and demonstrated faith. The passage is clear. The text says God will leave all the knees that have not bowed - it does not get any more explicit than that. Knees that have not bowed is past tense, God is basing His decision on the demonstrated faith of the 7000, not the forseen faith. Forseen faith is no where in the passage. Foreknew does not mean foreseen, it means knowlege from the past, something known beforehand. It is a reference to God's plan promised to Abraham way back in the past.

I believe God is all knowing and have the scriptures to prove it. I am not allowed to discuss the scriptures that teach about God's knowledge on this forum.

Actually this passage demonstrates that Election is by grace, not by demonstrated faith, which would be meritorious human works.

Folks, as I have demonstrated, the above statement is the exact opposite of what the passage teaches. Note that election unto salvation is by grace through faith, but this truth is best taught in other passages. This passage simple teaches election is based on faith demonstrated during our physical life. This passage therefore shreds Unconditional Election and Election by foreseen faith.

 

[Imblessed]

Van: God choice was based on the demonstrated faith of the 7000. The verse does not say I caused the folks to have faith and then chose them. It simply says God's people are those who have faith in God. There is no presumption, the text says God will leave all the knees that have not bowed - it does not get any more explicit than that.

How do you get THAT out of

this:
Romans 11:4 But what is the divine response to him [Elijah]? I have kept for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed their knee to Baal.



The more I read your stuff Van, the more confused I am about what you believe. God is a "fly on the wall" in your view. How do you reconcile all the times God has been VERY active in the bible? The times God has actively caused something to happen for His Will?

The theory that God chose a "type" of people is just not supported. It makes no sense whatsoever and leaves too many things to chance.

 

[CCWoody]

God choice was based on the demonstrated faith of the 7000. The verse does not say I caused the folks to have faith and then chose them. It simply says God's people are those who have faith in God. There is no presumption, the text says God will leave all the knees that have not bowed - it does not get any more explicit than that.

How do you get THAT out of

this:
Romans 11:4 But what is the divine response to him [Elijah]? I have kept for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed their knee to Baal.

The more I read your stuff Van, the more confused I am about what you believe. God is a "fly on the wall" in your view. How do you reconcile all the times God has been VERY active in the bible? The times God has actively caused something to happen for His Will?

The theory that God chose a "type" of people is just not supported. It makes no sense whatsoever and leaves too many things to chance.

Actually, the funny thing here is that Van is doing what Arminans everywhere do with these types of verses. He is simply reading his own presumptions into the verse and then concluding that it teaches what he thinks it does.

Presumption: God elects based upon demonstrated faith.
Verse: I have kept for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed their knee to Baal.
Conclusion: God's choice of the 7000 is based upon their demonstration of faith.

Unfortunately, the verse doesn't even plainly say that. ALL it says is that God has reserved 7000 men. It is only based upon an unproven presumption that the reason for God's choice is that they didn't bow their knee to Baal, when it might actually be that their refusal to bow their knee is logically consequential to God's choice. In isolation, it is impossible to know which is correct. Of course, we know that God's did not choose them because they refused to bow their knee, but so that they woudn't bow their knee. It is specifically because we have not isolated the verse, but are reading it in context that we know that these men were chosen so that the would not bow the knee. I would think it should be self-evidently obvious. If God chose them for what they did then it would be impossible for Paul to state in the next verse that this is an Election of grace.

But, I've said too much and I'm not ready to completely let the cat out of the bag. All I'll say is that if God chose them based upon his observation of their choice to not bow the knee, then faith is nothing more than a meritorious human work. Since we know that cannot be because the Bible says that faith is not a work, we must reject Van's and all Arminians assertions about this verse.

 

[Van]

Imblessed, I was quoting the NASB version of the passage in 1 Kings 19:18.

"Yet I will leave 7000 in Israel, all the knees that have not bowed to Baal and every mouth that has not kissed him."

The choice is based on the demonstrated faith of the 7000 who have not worshipped Baal.

Nearly every Calvinist claims they are confused by what I say. But when I defend something the Calvinists agree with, why I am crystal clear.

One thing Calvinist do is misrepresent me. You say my view is God is a fly on the wall. But do you have a quote that says this or even hints at this? Nope. So you post a strawman of your own construction rather than actually deal with my position. My God is all powerful. But I say God's plan differs from your view of His plan. Deal with the issue and not with your falsehoods.

My view makes sense, your view does not. God chose Christ before the foundation of the world, this is supported by several scriptures. Now then, scripture also says God chose us in Him from the foundation of the world. What that means is when Christ was chosen as the redeemer, generically everyone Christ would redeem was chosen. Not as individuals, but as a kind of people, believers in Him.

Why does this make more sense that foreseen individuals? Because we had not been created yet. Now in James 2:5 we see God choosing the poor - folks that love Him, which says God makes His choice of individuals when they are alive. So in order for both verses to be true, God's choice of us in Him must be generic.

 

[Van]

CCWoody, see my response to Imbessed.

A couple of clarifications. I did not say God choose them because of what they did. I think I said this: "God choice was based on the demonstrated faith of the 7000."

Next you say it is impossible for Paul to write that the remnant exists during Paul's time that was chosen in the same way. This again inserts your presumption that salvation by grace through faith does not mean our faith is our introduction to the grace in which we stand. However I offer Romans 5:2. Therefore without your unscriptural presupposition, this verse, Romans 11:5, clicks with my understanding of Romans 11:4.

 

[JJB]

Could there possibly be more than 7000 who would not bow to baal? If that is the evidence of faith that is required that we not bow our knees to other gods, what about atheists? They don't bow their knees for any god....

The difference between an atheist and one who is chosen is God.

I'm probably way off target, so just ignore my post if I am. TIA

 

[CCWoody]

Imblessed, I was quoting the NASB version of the passage in 1 Kings 19:18.

"Yet I will leave 7000 in Israel, all the knees that have not bowed to Baal and every mouth that has not kissed him."

The choice is based on the demonstrated faith of the 7000 who have not worshipped Baal.

I happen to like Paul's interpretation of that passage over yours. And, Paul tells us that your interpretation would void grace and make Election based upon meritorious human works.

My view makes sense, your view does not. God chose Christ before the foundation of the world, this is supported by several scriptures. Now then, scripture also says God chose us in Him from the foundation of the world. What that means is when Christ was chosen as the redeemer, generically everyone Christ would redeem was chosen. Not as individuals, but as a kind of people, believers in Him.

Why does this make more sense that foreseen individuals? Because we had not been created yet. Now in James 2:5 we see God choosing the poor - folks that love Him, which says God makes His choice of individuals when they are alive. So in order for both verses to be true, God's choice of us in Him must be generic.

Sophistry, nothing more and nothing less. It matters not that we had not yet been created. God is not prevented from Electing individuals unless he simply doesn't know which individuals are going to choose him. In that case, you are nothing but an Open Theist who denies God's Omniscience.

You are not an Open Theist, are you?

Anyway, outside of what has been widely condemned as a heresy in the church, the Lord actually foreknows the ends of creation, from first moment until the last moment of this earth, and beyond into the day of eternity. Given that the Lord knows all things before the first word of creation was spoken, it is impossible for the Lord to NOT have foreseen individuals.

The rest of your corporate election error is directly refuted by the passage in question. The 7000 were clearly Elected as individuals, not corporately. In fact, there is not a single verse which teaches this fantasy corporate election. You have to read that idea into the passage you referenced. We were chosen. God chose us. The passage doesn't say "God choose Christ," which is how you are reading the verse. And, unless you wish to take the route of the Open Theist error, God knew who we were.

Anyway, I suggest that you get a Omniscience of God 101 manual and consult it for the orthodox view of God's Omniscience.

A couple of clarifications. I did not say God choose them because of what they did. I think I said this: "God choice was based on the demonstrated faith of the 7000."

Again, you have found a difference without any distinction. Their "demonstrated faith" is what they did. The very definition of what it means to demonstrate is by actions, i.e. what they did. You are arguing with yourself here. The 7000 demonstrated their faith by what they did. Therefore, there is no escaping that you are teaching that God choose them because of what they did, their OUTWARD actions. That, my friend is a meritorious human work.

The very language of the passage itself proves what I am saying. Those whom God reserved did not bow (an action verb if you haven't figured it out) the knee to Baal. Anyway, you are free to continue to argue against yourself if you like. I'll just turn you back around and send you back into the ring against yourself.

Oh, before I go, Van, it is "grace through faith," not "grace plus faith."

 

[Van]

CCWoody, I am sad. You have chosen the route of many other Calvinists. When confronted with the clear text of 1 Kings 19:18, you say you perfer Paul's version to mine. The text is clear, God chose the 7000 based on their demonstrated faith. You can attack me, drag other issues in, and toss in the kitchen sink, election unto salvation is through faith as shown in Romans 11:4.

James 2:5 indicates God chooses us during our physical life, He chooses those who love Him because He keeps His promises. Thus, since He choses us as individuals during our lifetime, His choice of us in Him was generic. Note I said generic, not corporate. That is another view, one that I do not think stands up. Calvinists keep trying to put me into a box that comes supplied with off the shelf rebuttals. But no quote will be forthcoming of me saying "corporate." It is simply a misrepresentation of my view.

And no verse will be forthcoming which says God knows each moment of the future. What scripture says is God knows the end from the beginnig. The text does not indicate the level of detail. So this text can be understood to mean God knows His plan will be fulfilled. And if His plan is to stretch out His arms to fallen mankind, to say Here I am, Here I am, and allow them to choose to trust in God autonomously, then God's attribute of being "all knowing" does not conflict with generic election from the beginning.

What Calvinists do, rather than address the topic, Romans 11:4 in this case, is to attack their opponents - He thinks God is a fly on the wall, He does not accept the Sovereignty of God, He is a heretic and on and on. Always running away from the clear teaching of the text, God elects folks individually during their lifetime based on their faith.

 

[Imblessed]

And no verse will be forthcoming which says God knows each moment of the future. What scripture says is God knows the end from the beginnig. The text does not indicate the level of detail. So this text can be understood to mean God knows His plan will be fulfilled. And if His plan is to stretch out His arms to fallen mankind, to say Here I am, Here I am, and allow them to choose to trust in God autonomously, then God's attribute of being "all knowing" does not conflict with generic election from the beginning.

So what you are saying is that God is all knowing only in the sense that He knows His plan will be fulfilled? I'll bet someone here can post a verse that says God knows each moment of the future! I don't have my bible in front of me but I know it's around...somewhere in Psalms I think, which is where that verse is that says God knows everything about each one of us LONG before we are ever born.

What Calvinists do, rather than address the topic, Romans 11:4 in this case, is to attack their opponents - He thinks God is a fly on the wall, He does not accept the Sovereignty of God, He is a heretic and on and on. Always running away from the clear teaching of the text, God elects folks individually during their lifetime based on their faith.

While don't you actually show us some CLEAR teaching from the text? We haven't seen any yet. All we've seen is you doing exactly what you accuse us of doing--making verses mean what you think they should mean!

Until then, I will stand by my view that I believe your view makes God out to be a fly on the wall, watching creation without being sovereign. I feel like you believe that God put things in motion, put Jesus out there for salvation, and now is sitting back watching the show......

I appologize for offending you. I'm not attacking you, I'm attacking that view. I don't doubt for one moment your faith or your christianity, I just believe your views on election and predestination are wrong.

 

[Raz]

Isa 42:8-9 I am the Lord; that is My name! I will not give My glory to another or my praise to idols.
See, the former things that have taken place, and new things I declare;
before they spring into being, I announce them to you.

Isa 45:6-7 I am the Lord, and there is no other.
I form light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the Lord, do all these things.

Isa 46:9-11 I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me.
I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come.
I say; My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.
From the east I summon a bird of prey; from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose.

What I have said, that will I bring about; what I have planned, that will I do.​

 

[CCWoody]

And no verse will be forthcoming which says God knows each moment of the future. What scripture says is God knows the end from the beginnig. The text does not indicate the level of detail. So this text can be understood to mean God knows His plan will be fulfilled. And if His plan is to stretch out His arms to fallen mankind, to say Here I am, Here I am, and allow them to choose to trust in God autonomously, then God's attribute of being "all knowing" does not conflict with generic election from the beginning.

It was pretty clear from the very few posts of yours that I read that you denied God's Omniscience. It is nice to see you at least be honest about it.

Your problem is not that you don't understand Election. Your problem is that you don't understand anything about the Lord because you don't even grasp the first fundamentals of God. You aren't even qualified to have any kind of a discussion with me until you grasp the fundamentals God's knowledge for starters.

 

[Van]

CCWoody, I believe God is all knowing. I have the scriptures to prove it. Your assertion to the contrary is simply a lie.

Folks, note the subject of the thread is Romans 11:4 and the Calvinists are running like mad away from it, hurling insults at me because I am standing firm with scripture on my side.

They say the text is not clear. I have given the NASB version, here is the ESV version:

18Yet I will leave seven thousand in Israel, all the knees that have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth that has not kissed him."

How about the YLT version? Here it is:

18and I have left in Israel seven thousand, all the knees that have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth that hath not kissed him.'

While the text is said to not be clear, here is a test. Take the verse to any group not indoctrinated in Calvinism and ask: Does this verse indicate God chose the 7000 based on foreseen faith or demonstrated faith? Most folks will answer the question, demonstrated faith, because that is the natural unforced meaning of the text. God said He will leave all the knees that have not bowed. Pretty plain, pretty obvious and thus the Calvinists are trying to change the subject.

 

[Van]

RAZ, great posting. God makes known what He is going to bring about.

 

[CCWoody]

Ok, I can tell after Van's revelation that he denies God's Omniscience that this thread needs a little help to get back on track. Up until now, the only idea that has been put forth is this Open Theist idea that election is done after God observes man's outward display of faith. Now, what is revealed by this verse by Paul does shred this idea and prove decisively that election on "demonstrated" faith is nothing but a works based salvation system. I suppose that this will not bother most Open Theists.

Still, I will not waste any of my effort trying to make Van see. He is so fixed on the idea that God simply doesn't know that it prevents him from even seeing what this verse is teaching. You see, he has it fixed that God doesn't know and, therefore, the only thing this verse could be saying is that God chose them AFTER observing their faith in action. God has to learn what man is like before God can choose him. He has no capability of even entertaining anything else due to this allegiance to Open Theism. This is definitionally works based and it should bother Van that Paul is making a contrast between works and grace enough for him to at least try and figure out what ths "work" is that Paul is speaking against.

Now, what is fascinating about this whole thing is that Open Theists do affirm that God does know man and everything about man. Well, why, then, if God knows man does he have to wait until man demonstrates his faith before electing him? Doesn't God already know that man has faith? Unfortunately, there is not way to read that God elected man when he knew him, but before man demonstrated his faith, because there is not way to read that with the verb tenses from the Open Theist perspective. But, this is beside the point of this thread. Van is simply outside of the bounds of any kind of discussion about it.

To address this verse to Arminians who do affirm God's Omniscience, we need to point out that God would have certainly know the future before it happened. And, it is universally acknowledge by Arminians who haven't fallen under the lure of Open Theism that God did not elect in time but before he created man. This, therefore, renders this passage with 2 possibilities:

God chose the 7000 because he knew that they would not bow the knee to Baal.
God chose the 7000 so that they would not bow the knee to Baal.

Arminians prefer the former; Calvinists the latter.

It is the fundamental and fatal flaw which Paul points out with his interpretation of the 1 Kings that sticks a dagger in the heart of the Arminians choice of interpretation. Now, this same flaw destroys Van's position as well, but, given his insistence of reading Open Theism into the Bible, I don't expect that he will see this point.

What I am after in this thread is what specifically has Paul pointed out which renders this idea that God chose the 7000 because he knew that they would not bow the knee to Baal? I will admit that I did have to stare at it for quite some time before it dawned on me just how devastating Paul's point is to the Arminian position.

What do you think this is that Paul is pointing out?
Or, if you disagree, what do you think Paul is saying?

 

[oworm]

Folks, note the subject of the thread is Romans 11:4 and the Calvinists are running like mad away from it, hurling insults at me because I am standing firm with scripture on my side.

Im in study atm with that text open as it happens.

Romans 11:4-6"But what is God's reply to him? "I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal." So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace. "

Text seems to say that God kept. Following verse (5)indicates that at the time of writing the situation is similar."So too at the present time there is a remnant" just like the 7000. Context shows from the next statement "Chosen by grace" That the remnant at the time of writing and the 7000 remnants are both "Chosen by grace" We are chosen by grace through faith. Faith is the channel.Grace is the vehicle. both are granted by the Sovereign lord.If that is not the case then how do we get around Ephesians 2:8"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God"

Grace+ anything,subracts from grace.