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Shouldn't all Evangelicals want Christian Nationalism?

Fervent

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You love only yourself then. I am done with you Fervent. We may not be brothers in Christ but I wish you a good day.
See: Luke 14:26

The problem with Christian Nationalism is its a contradiction in terms, like saying egalitarian racist or rational materialist...Christian demands we practice radical enemy love, but nationalist demands we hate our enemies in the name of our nation. So perhaps you're right, maybe we're not brothers in Christ. And I wish you a good day as well.
 
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lifepsyop

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See: Luke 14:26

The problem with Christian Nationalism is its a contradiction in terms, like saying egalitarian racist or rational materialist...Christian demands we practice radical enemy love,

That's true, and yet we are also encouraged to actively protect our communities from evildoers, to mark them as enemies and have no part with them. We love our enemies by forgiving them and having mercy on them, not by pretending they are not actually enemies doing evil to us.

There is no such thing as loving your enemies without first having identifiable enemies. Enemies should not be allowed to, for one example, educate your children.

but nationalist demands we hate our enemies in the name of our nation. So perhaps you're right, maybe we're not brothers in Christ. And I wish you a good day as well.

Wanting to protect the people around you is not hate, it is love.

A simple question for you. Is it hateful for a parent to prioritize their own children over other children in the neighborhood? Like when you say "this house is for me and my family to live in", does that automatically mean you hate everyone outside your house?
 
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Fervent

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That's true, and yet we are also encouraged to actively protect our communities from evildoers, to mark them as enemies and have no part with them. We love our enemies by forgiving them and having mercy on them, not by pretending they are not actually enemies doing evil to us.
No one said anything about not recognizing enemies. It's about opposing evil with evil and force with force. The way of the cross is the way of submission, not dominance. It is overcoming evil by letting evil bring about its own end.
There is no such thing as loving your enemies without first having identifiable enemies. Enemies should not be allowed to, for one example, educate your children.
What has this to do with trying establish an Earthly nation?
Wanting to protect the people around you is not hate, it is love.
Love of self, sure. But it's hatred of the enemies. What good is it if you do good to those who love you?
A simple question for you. Is it hateful for a parent to prioritize their own children over other children in the neighborhood? Like when you say "this house is for me and my family to live in", does that automatically mean you hate everyone outside your house?
If there is a homeless child and you tell them "You are not welcome in my home." that is hatred. It's a worldly sort of wisdom that says we have to protect what's ours, but Christianity is about self-sacrifice and freely giving what God has granted us. Nationalism tells us we must defend our own interests above the interests of others, but Christ tells us we must put others above ourselves.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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No one said anything about not recognizing enemies. It's about opposing evil with evil and force with force. The way of the cross is the way of submission, not dominance. It is overcoming evil by letting evil bring about its own end.
So essentially you would let evil dominate unopposed.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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Is God's opposition alone not sufficient? Why does He need my help?
So God didn't use Israel for his own ends? Is he done with using people for his own ends in the Era of our Lord? If someone attacked your wife Fervant, you consider it evil for her to fight back or you to defend her? This is absurd.
 
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Fervent

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So God didn't use Israel for his own ends? Is he done with using people for his own ends in the Era of our Lord? If someone attacked your wife Fervant, you consider it evil for her to fight back or you to defend her? This is absurd.
Have you not read the Sermon on the Mount? "Do not resist the evil person..." If we have Christ as our Master, His example is how we ought to conduct ourselves. Do you not trust the Lord when He says "Vengeance is mine, I will avenge"? If we belong to Christ, it means we must be willing to drink His cup. God has not given us a command to conquer the land by force, and it is usurping God's authority for us to pretend that He has. Christian conquests is on the other side of the sword, through the blood of martyrs.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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Have you not read the Sermon on the Mount? "Do not resist the evil person..." If we have Christ as our Master, His example is how we ought to conduct ourselves. Do you not trust the Lord when He says "Vengeance is mine, I will avenge"? If we belong to Christ, it means we must be willing to drink His cup. God has not given us a command to conquer the land by force, and it is usurping God's authority for us to pretend that He has. Christian conquests is on the other side of the sword, through the blood of martyrs.
Just so we're clear. If your wife was being attacked and you had the power to stop it, you wouldn't?
 
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Fervent

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Just so we're clear. If your wife was being attacked and you had the power to stop it, you wouldn't?
Power how? Through engaging in violence? No. Through stepping between her and her attacker? Yeah. But this is a distraction from the issue at hand.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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Power how? Through engaging in violence? No. Through stepping between her and her attacker? Yeah. But this is a distraction from the issue at hand.
Stepping between her and the attacker, letting the attacker get at you and then when he's done with you he would attack your wife. This is your preferred outcome? Alright, I don't think I need to say much more. Also not a distraction.
 
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Fervent

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Stepping between her and the attacker, letting the attacker get at you and then when he's done with you he would attack your wife. This is your preferred outcome? Alright, I don't think I need to say much more. Also not a distraction.
"vengeance is mine, I will avenge" says the Lord. very much a distraction, since youre not addressing the central point that the ethic is drawn from Christ. He does not say fear those who can take our lives and defend ourselves from them but calls for radical self-sacrifice.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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"vengeance is mine, I will avenge" says the Lord. very much a distraction, since youre not addressing the central point that the ethic is drawn from Christ. He does not say fear those who can take our lives and defend ourselves from them but calls for radical self-sacrifice.
Again, you are willing to let your wife get hurt when you have the power to prevent it. Nothing more needs to be said.
 
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Fervent

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Again, you are willing to let your wife get hurt when you have the power to prevent it. Nothing more needs to be said.
And you are unwilling to trust God to defend you and those you love. You look to your own strength as if God is impotent to protect you if you don't secure your own protection. Your trust is in government and violence.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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And you are unwilling to trust God to defend you and those you love. You look to your own strength as if God is impotent to protect you if you don't secure your own protection. Your trust is in government and violence.
I'm certain God wouldn't hold it against me if I used the gifts he has given me to defend my girlfriend from someone who was desiring to harm her. Just remember, you are willing to see your wife hurt.
 
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Fervent

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I'm certain God wouldn't hold it against me if I used the gifts he has given me to defend my girlfriend from someone who was desiring to harm her. Just remember, you are willing to see your wife hurt.
I'm not certain what God will or won't hold against me or you, and I don't see how you could have such certainty. What I do know is Jesus taught an ethic of radical non-violence to the point of an agonizing death. I know that whatever happens, God's justice will prevail. What I do know is Jesus said "do not resist the evil person," and I take that command seriously and trust Him when He says He will restore the years that the locust has eaten and wipe every tear. And I am certain that the fear and hatred of the foreigner that is inherent in nationalism is not compatible with Christian ethics.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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I'm not certain what God will or won't hold against me or you, and I don't see how you could have such certainty. What I do know is Jesus taught an ethic of radical non-violence to the point of an agonizing death. I know that whatever happens, God's justice will prevail. What I do know is Jesus said "do not resist the evil person," and I take that command seriously and trust Him when He says He will restore the years that the locust has eaten and wipe every tear. And I am certain that the fear and hatred of the foreigner that is inherent in nationalism is not compatible with Christian ethics.
Didn't our Lord use violence to cleanse the Temple? But here's the point, you think God has called you and every other Christian to tolerate evil. I don't feel any need to allow my girlfriend to be attacked. You feel a need to allow your wife to be attacked.
 
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Fervent

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Didn't our Lord use violence to cleanse the Temple? But here's the point, you think God has called you and every other Christian to tolerate evil. I don't feel any need to allow my girlfriend to be attacked. You feel a need to allow your wife to be attacked.
Throwing over a table and cracking a whip? Careful with that reach, friend. There's a differene between active non-violence and tolerating evil. The Lord will judge all men, and He can defend my wife. I trust that He will, and don't feel a need to repay evil for evil or force for force. I need not fear evil, because death has no sting. My trust is not in my capacity to inflict violence on those who would do me harm, either on a personal or societal scale. I trust God to protect me and those I love, and I take the commands of the Lord seriously. Christ said pick up your cross and follow me, when He bids a man "come" it is "come and die."
 
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lifepsyop

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If there is a homeless child and you tell them "You are not welcome in my home." that is hatred.

Who said anything about being unwelcoming? I said you look after the people in your house first before people outside. After everyone inside your house is well cared for, you can seek to help others outside.

You yourself live by these principles all the time. We all do.

How many strangers are you going to invite into your home? And why selfishly keep it as your home? It would be "hate" not to give your home away for others to live in, right? Because if not that would mean you are prioritizing yourself over others, and according to you that is hate...

It's a worldly sort of wisdom that says we have to protect what's ours, but Christianity is about self-sacrifice and freely giving what God has granted us. Nationalism tells us we must defend our own interests above the interests of others, but Christ tells us we must put others above ourselves.

Well, why aren't you out there giving away all of your stuff to people on the street? Why are you selfishly holding onto things like internet devices, or spending money on a special apartment, room, or house for yourself? This is silly of course, because obviously we all prioritize taking care of ourselves and the people around us, before those people and things further away from us.

This isn't "hate", it's just the basic ordering of reality.

This is frustrating to me, because underneath this discussion I hear the rationalizations for allowing unchecked mass immigration into the USA, and the wagging finger that one is "hateful" for not welcoming it. (and the one wagging the finger is usually the furthest removed from its consequences) It's an extremely hostile act upon one's existing neighbors, masquerading as charity.
 
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Fervent

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Who said anything about being unwelcoming? I said you look after the people in your house first before people outside. After everyone inside your house is well cared for, you can seek to help others outside.
This is a different thing from Christian Nationalism. With the Good Samaritan, did he look after himself first or put his own safety and comfort at risk for the sake of the beaten man?
You yourself live by these principles all the time. We all do.
I fail at living up to the ideal of Christian ethics, but that's no reason to embrace tribalistic political philosophies.
How many strangers are you going to invite into your home? And why selfishly keep it as your home? It would be "hate" not to give your home away for others to live in, right? Because if not that would mean you are prioritizing yourself over others, and according to you that is hate...
Did Jesus not say "sell all your possessions, and give them to the poor"? It's a perfection that we can never live up to, but that's no reason to compromise.
Well, why aren't you out there giving away all of your stuff to people on the street? Why are you selfishly holding onto things like internet devices, or spending money on a special apartment, room, or house for yourself? This is silly of course, because obviously we all prioritize taking care of ourselves and the people around us, before those people and things further away from us.
Because I, like every other Christian, am a hypocrite. But we're talking about ideals and ethics, the mirror we hold ourselves up to and see how desperately sinful we are and in need of Christ. We don't need to introduce or excuse philosophical movements that ask us to compromise the ethical foundations of our faith. I may not be able to live up to these ideals, but that's no reason to compromise them.
This isn't "hate", it's just the basic ordering of reality.
I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "this" here, because the hate I speak of is the inherent "us vs them" mentality that is involved in Christian Nationalism. The ethic that says that just because the person in need isn't an associate of mine, I'm more deserving of the blessings of God than they are. The one that fails to recognize "there but for the grace of God go I" and instead divides people up based on geographic location or acceptance of faith.
This is frustrating to me, because underneath this discussion I hear the rationalizations for allowing unchecked mass immigration into the USA, and the wagging finger that one is "hateful" for not welcoming it. (and the one wagging the finger is usually the furthest removed from its consequences) It's an extremely hostile act upon one's existing neighbors, masquerading as charity.
There's certainly a need to discuss what the loving action is regarding those seeking asylum or migrating to the US illegally. But shutting our hearts out on those people and not recognizing that through no fault of their own they were born in less fortunate circumstances and are merely seeking to improve their lives is insensitive at the very least, and hateful at worst. At the end of the day, these questions are more complicated than boiling them down to simple solutions and a lack of humanitarian concern for the immigrants is unloving. What the solution is, I certainly don't know. I don't think it's unchecked mass immigration, but I do think we need to do something to improve their situation considering the position we are in as a country.
 
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MarkSB

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Before i give a thorough response. Do you think Christians should be passive, let others control them and inclusive?
Should Christians be passive: Nope, never said that. But standing up for one's beliefs does not require you to control others at every turn. And letting others be free to live their lives and make their own choices does not mean they're controlling you.

Should Christians be inclusive (assuming that's what you mean, because I'm not following your wording): Christians should love others. Right or wrong, I see the word "inclusive" as being an attempt at (yet another) strawman.
 
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