Should women teach?

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Southern Cross

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Really, this all boils down to one question:

Was the scripture in 1 Timothy provided as an absolute for all generations to come, or was it simply directed at the women in the writer's primary audience at the time? Do we really have any way to know for sure?

The scripture references many of you have posted in support of your opposing viewpoints don't clearly sustain your position. Including the "original greek" which did not subsitute "husband" for "men" - that's only speculation on the part of some scholars. You can piece together scriptures to deliver your version of the truth all you want, but the sum of those parts it does not always add up to THE truth.

Do I know the answer? No. Do I care? Yes. Is it worth me getting my panties in a bunch because some woman preacher visits my church? Nope - if she's got something worth saying, I'll listen and apply it. But I'll tell you I don't think a woman should be in authority over a church. This is based on my policy of direct interpretation of scripture unless it's super clear that the apostles were dealing with a cultural issue that doesn't apply in all circumstances.

To the OP - you may want to change out of that dress that your CF character is wearing. Pants may be more appropriate for you :) .

Carry on . I am so surprised that nobody has really unsheathed the claws yet. This has remained rather civilized.
 
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talitha

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To the OP - you may want to change out of that dress that your CF character is wearing. Pants may be more appropriate for you :) .
LOL, yeah, I thought about that, but I didn't say anything......

"The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God."

see, my bible can hit you over the head too
(difference is, I don't mean it)

blessings
tal
 
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SoulFly51

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Here's what gets me:

1 Corinthians 14:33b-34
33b As in all the congregations of the saints,
34 women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says.
(NIV)


Paul uses the word all here - who does all leave out? This seems to imply exactly what it says, and because of this verse I have a hard time believing that this commmand was just for a couple of churches. Paul says its for all of them.

Then he says this:

1 Corinthians 14:37
37 If anybody thinks he is a prophet or spiritually gifted, let him acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord's command.
(NIV)


Paul specifically says that he's not just stating his opinion - he's speaking for God.

Don't get me wrong - I'm all for the gospel being spread, and I'm all for utilizing as many teachers of the word as possible, but I'm very reluctant to violate this command. Maybe I'm dead wrong, but I haven't seen anything that convinces me with 100% certainty that this was simply a cultural thing. It would be sinful for me to teach otherwise - if you don't believe me read Romans 14.


That being said - some of you who have posted in this thread should be ashamed of yourselves! As I've read through some of the posts in this thread I have not seen the Spirit of Christ manifested through some people's words - rather the opposite!

Why should you expect anyone to take you seriously or listen to what you have to say when you're being a complete jerk?

That's my 2 cents ...
 
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If Not For Grace

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Old Covenant (same place where God used a DONKEY to instruct Balaam. )

(in response to Deborah was a Judge)

That;s Right OT is STILL The Bible (the Word of God). If God can use an ass perhaps He can make room for lowly females.

You ask Him if you sin, when/if you learn something from a woman like a mother, sister or wife. Let me know what He tells you.
 
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~InHisHands~

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(in response to Deborah was a Judge)

That;s Right OT is STILL The Bible (the Word of God). If God can use an ass perhaps He can make room for lowly females.

You ask Him if you sin, when/if you learn something from a woman like a mother, sister or wife. Let me know what He tells you.
Is it possible that women were not to teach because of that whole "men are the head of the household" issue? Just a thought. However, I will agree with one thing in your post. I don't care who you are or what kind of man you are, I don't know too many married men that at some point during their marriage, didn't learn something through the actions of their quiet and submissively loving wives. They weren't teaching but, there was still a lesson learned. :)
 
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EdmundBlackadderTheThird

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If you study out Deborah you will find that in scripture it says the men should have been ashamed for not leading. It is clear that she was not supposed to have been the choice to lead and God wasn't happy with the men over it happening. Sure he used it to His glory because that is his way but it is just another example of the Jews not following God's commands much like the golden calf and so many other times.

The NT examples are never once in a meeting/congregation setting.

Explaining away scripture we do not like is something that we all do at different times. I have prayed and still strive for understanding in the things I do not like. It turns out there were more than I first thought. I don't actually like that women are not to hold authority and believe me I would love to not have that responsibility as would many men but we don't have the choice. I wouldlove it if my gay friends weren't living in constant sin. I would love it if I could get drunk whenever I felt like it. But these things are clear in scripture and like it or not we are supposed to follow them. Christianity is not a buffet where we can skip the liver and onions. It is supposed to be an all or nothing prospect. We fall short constantly but the goal should be to not do that. There are lots of things in scripture that lots of people do not like. There are lots of things that don't really make sense. But that does not mean we get to write them to feel good about ourselves based on a modern societal ideal.

For those who write off the admonitions concerning women in leadership, consider this: The only reason you are even looking to explain away these verses is because you are reading them with a perception tinted by modern society. The very same reason you claim the verses are not valid is the reason you are trying to find a way that are not binding on believers today. It's society at its finest invading our churches and enforcing its values onto us without us even fighting back. Scripture is scripture. Unless you can show through scripture why these verses do not apply, and I mean through scripture and not some vague reasoning based on logic outside of scripture, then it stands to reason that you are likely wrong. So please, using scripture only, show anywhere that women are allowed to hold authority over men in any church or congregational structure.
 
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Judy02

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Have people not figured out that God no longer looks on the outward man/woman?

He looks at the heart.

I say preach it ladies.


As far as the Adam/Eve discussion, DON'T EVEN TRY AND BLAME ALL OF IT ON THE WOMAN.

(Rom 5:12) Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

(Rom 5:19) For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Trying to prove that discussion is like getting a girl pregnant and saying it was not your fault!

Heh nope. The christian walk is one big elitist game...God stereotypes, he chooses to fill people with himself based on their outer features, not on how submitted to God they are...:doh:

Seeing as all are filled with the Holy Spirit, and all kinds of believers alike have been given various gifts including the one of teaching the argument is ridiculous.

It's mainly here to serve other people's pride. One of the easiest ways to make ourselves feel better is by putting another person down. The Jews were elitist; instead of setting a radical example, like we've been instructed to, many christians have simply banged on the same drum.

Oh yeah, my views are pretty fully stated here: If u don't agree fine, I'm not going to get aggressive and hold a gun to your head. But it's there for anyone who wants to read up on it.
http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=26173159#post26173159

Also, my views on the husband being described as a 'head' of his wife: http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=26529032#post26529032
 
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Godslilgurlalways

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I would even caution women

against teaching other women,

or other children, than their own,


because:

14

... it was not Adam who was DECEIVED, but THE WOMAN being deceived, fell into transgression.

15 But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint.


I feel in asense he wasn't deceived it was his own personal choice to listen and all into sin:)
 
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Godslilgurlalways

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I would even caution women

against teaching other women,

or other children, than their own,


because:

14

... it was not Adam who was DECEIVED, but THE WOMAN being deceived, fell into transgression.

15 But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint.

exactly! Amen! My stand is that they are free to teach women, and to lead young people or children classes etc, but they are clearly not to preach. If a woman preaches in a church I usually walk out because it just feels weird and wrong, and its against Biblical principles. Paul said women are to remain silent in the church.


I would have to disagree do you mind me asking was those words in red?
 
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Judy02

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For those who write off the admonitions concerning women in leadership, consider this: The only reason you are even looking to explain away these verses is because you are reading them with a perception tinted by modern society. The very same reason you claim the verses are not valid is the reason you are trying to find a way that are not binding on believers today. It's society at its finest invading our churches and enforcing its values onto us without us even fighting back. Scripture is scripture. Unless you can show through scripture why these verses do not apply, and I mean through scripture and not some vague reasoning based on logic outside of scripture, then it stands to reason that you are likely wrong. So please, using scripture only, show anywhere that women are allowed to hold authority over men in any church or congregational structure.

Actually, me not being convinced with the traditional interpretations has been due to me having a conscience. Rating humans as higher and lesser mortals and being elitist about discipling others has never rang true for me. It wouldn't matter if it was in the stone age or the 21st century, it just simply hasn't rested in my conscience as right.
This is the reason I think its controversial, it doesn't seem like a nice way to treat people at all, in fact its abhorrent.It's certainly not love. Which is a shame, because the message of the gospel was freedom, not by placing restrictions on people

Oh and secondly, it's not been only recently people have questionned these ideas. I've read literature dating to the 19th century and before that think women can teach. It's just not as well known about now, because challenging these well established patterns of behaviour was more controversial then than it is now.

Between 1761 and 1791 John Wesley appointed many women as local preachers and itinerant ministers. His approval of their ministry, however reluctant paved the way for the Wesleyan Holiness movement to thrust a host of remarkable Nonconformist women into the limelight.
The first was Phoebe Palmer (1807 - 74) an American evangelist and preacher who became a major force behind the great American Revival of 1858, and who was the first to preach the baptism of the Holy Spirit in the UK. She was in such demand and away from home so often that her husband eventually retired from medicine so that he could support her ministry. The four years she spent in the UK laid the foundation of the Pentecostal and charismatic movements that would impact the Church for the next 150 years. Phoebe justified a woman's right to preach on the experience of pentecost. If the Holy Spirit had fallen on women and men indiscriminately then, what was to stop him anointing women for ministry today?

Anyone can be influenced by their culture. On the other side of the same coin, u could be reading it, tinted by the messages the church and our culture has passed down for centuries, influencing bible interpretation. Not enough people take a fresh look at scripture and the original language, and in context to the whole of scripture, and by looking at how the Holy Spirit works today. He doesn't discriminate. If women have been equppied with the gift of teaching (which they have) it's unlikely they're meant to sit there, instead of helping, helping to cause the church a struggle later on. If u think u and other men can never learn from any women, then u have a strange idea of God.
 
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Judy02

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If you study out Deborah you will find that in scripture it says the men should have been ashamed for not leading. It is clear that she was not supposed to have been the choice to lead and God wasn't happy with the men over it happening. Sure he used it to His glory because that is his way but it is just another example of the Jews not following God's commands much like the golden calf and so many other times.

The NT examples are never once in a meeting/congregation setting.

Explaining away scripture we do not like is something that we all do at different times. I have prayed and still strive for understanding in the things I do not like. It turns out there were more than I first thought. I don't actually like that women are not to hold authority and believe me I would love to not have that responsibility as would many men but we don't have the choice. I wouldlove it if my gay friends weren't living in constant sin. I would love it if I could get drunk whenever I felt like it. But these things are clear in scripture and like it or not we are supposed to follow them. Christianity is not a buffet where we can skip the liver and onions. It is supposed to be an all or nothing prospect. We fall short constantly but the goal should be to not do that. There are lots of things in scripture that lots of people do not like. There are lots of things that don't really make sense. But that does not mean we get to write them to feel good about ourselves based on a modern societal ideal.

For those who write off the admonitions concerning women in leadership, consider this: The only reason you are even looking to explain away these verses is because you are reading them with a perception tinted by modern society. The very same reason you claim the verses are not valid is the reason you are trying to find a way that are not binding on believers today. It's society at its finest invading our churches and enforcing its values onto us without us even fighting back. Scripture is scripture. Unless you can show through scripture why these verses do not apply, and I mean through scripture and not some vague reasoning based on logic outside of scripture, then it stands to reason that you are likely wrong. So please, using scripture only, show anywhere that women are allowed to hold authority over men in any church or congregational structure.

Here's what gets me:

1 Corinthians 14:33b-34
33b As in all the congregations of the saints,
34 women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says.
(NIV)


Paul uses the word all here - who does all leave out? This seems to imply exactly what it says, and because of this verse I have a hard time believing that this commmand was just for a couple of churches. Paul says its for all of them. ...

Taken at face value, it would appear that women are condemned to sitting through every act of worship like stuffed dummies, unable to read a lesson or join in the singing, let alone pray or preach. I did hear of a church recently where women were not allowed to ask a question or make a comment in a bible study, but had to write it down, and hand it to the nearest male. That really is extreme, for only slightly earlier in the same letter, speaking about propriety in worship, Paul says that any woman who prays or prophesies in public must cover her head. It is evident from reading through Paul's letters, that women were not silent in the churches. Loads of female prophets are named in the bible. If a prophetic ministry was an essential vehicle for encouraging and empowering congregations, a means of sharing God's wider plans and intentions, if it was a call to integrity, authenticity and radical lifestyle, it must have involved a measure of preaching and required a certain amount of authority
 
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Smileyill

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Taken at face value, it would appear that women are condemned to sitting through every act of worship like stuffed dummies, unable to read a lesson or join in the singing, let alone pray or preach. I did hear of a church recently where women were not allowed to ask a question or make a comment in a bible study, but had to write it down, and hand it to the nearest male. That really is extreme, for only slightly earlier in the same letter, speaking about propriety in worship, Paul says that any woman who prays or prophesies in public must cover her head. It is evident from reading through Paul's letters, that women were not silent in the churches. Loads of female prophets are named in the bible. If a prophetic ministry was an essential vehicle for encouraging and empowering congregations, a means of sharing God's wider plans and intentions, if it was a call to integrity, authenticity and radical lifestyle, it must have involved a measure of preaching and required a certain amount of authority

Teaching is different than prophesying, praying, and singing. Women can and do teach other women and children. Actually, they teach men too, but that's the man's problem, not hers. Unless, of course, she teaches poorly, then they both have a problem.

"Likewise, teach the older women to be reverent in the way they live, not to be slanderers or addicted to much wine, but to teach what is good. Then they can train the younger women to love their husbands and children, to be self-controlled and pure, to be busy at home, to be kind, and to be subject to their husbands, so that no one will malign the word of God." Titus 2:3-5 (NIV)

Silence in church is also simple. That's not public, despite practice to the contrary. Go out into the world and save the lost, then bring them to fellowship with the Church to learn and worship.

As for a Bible study, that too is different. Women should learn from older women or their husbands. If no older women will shoulder the responsibility of teaching younger women, then men will have to teach them. The converse is true also, if no men teach, women will have to teach them. Passing notes is absurd.
 
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Judy02

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Teaching is different than prophesying, praying, and singing. Women can and do teach other women and children. Actually, they teach men too, but that's the man's problem, not hers. Unless, of course, she teaches poorly, then they both have a problem.

"Likewise, teach the older women to be reverent in the way they live, not to be slanderers or addicted to much wine, but to teach what is good. Then they can train the younger women to love their husbands and children, to be self-controlled and pure, to be busy at home, to be kind, and to be subject to their husbands, so that no one will malign the word of God." Titus 2:3-5 (NIV)

Silence in church is also simple. That's not public, despite practice to the contrary. Go out into the world and save the lost, then bring them to fellowship with the Church to learn and worship.

As for a Bible study, that too is different. Women should learn from older women or their husbands. If no older women will shoulder the responsibility of teaching younger women, then men will have to teach them. The converse is true also, if no men teach, women will have to teach them. Passing notes is absurd.

Prophesying simply means to speak for God; and express divine will. It is possible that teaching overlaps, and would be difficult to prophesy effectively without some form of instruction/authority.
 
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Randi

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I just wanted to point something out...just because women aren't to be in authority in the church DOES NOT mean God does not use them.

Women can do powerful and amazing things for God. He uses them in great ways. A woman's role is not to be the authority over her husband or in the church. She should accept that and seek to serve God in another way. :)
 
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Smileyill

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Prophesying simply means to speak for God; and express divine will. It is possible that teaching overlaps, and would be difficult to prophesy effectively without some form of instruction/authority.

That begs the question...

Still, in public, some women should prophesy. If an unbeliever asks a question, of course, put them on the right track. If you're there, that's your responsiblity.
Expounding scripture to fellow believers is different.
 
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Judy02

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That begs the question...

Still, in public, some women should prophesy. If an unbeliever asks a question, of course, put them on the right track. If you're there, that's your responsiblity.
Expounding scripture to fellow believers is different.

'putting someone on the right track' is holding authority and is teaching. If women are so 'deceivable' like some people like to interpret the passages, obviously its dangerous for us to help anyone who is struggling, especially a non believer. If it's true that we're deceivable we won't witness anymore. Something not quite consistent here...

Actually I take that back, prophesying does involve teaching and instruction at times. I'll find biblical examples later, I don't have them on hand right this second but I'll get back to it.
 
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EdmundBlackadderTheThird

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Taken at face value, it would appear that women are condemned to sitting through every act of worship like stuffed dummies, unable to read a lesson or join in the singing, let alone pray or preach. I did hear of a church recently where women were not allowed to ask a question or make a comment in a bible study, but had to write it down, and hand it to the nearest male. That really is extreme, for only slightly earlier in the same letter, speaking about propriety in worship, Paul says that any woman who prays or prophesies in public must cover her head. It is evident from reading through Paul's letters, that women were not silent in the churches. Loads of female prophets are named in the bible. If a prophetic ministry was an essential vehicle for encouraging and empowering congregations, a means of sharing God's wider plans and intentions, if it was a call to integrity, authenticity and radical lifestyle, it must have involved a measure of preaching and required a certain amount of authority.
Never once does Paul mention a woman prophecying, teaching, preaching et al in a congregational setting. We see women witnessing to men in what is essentially a field, we see them in multiple settings but never doing the speaking. We have letters from Peter, Paul, and so on but not one from a woman. Again the church is not in public. The insturctions are clear. Again scripture is not a buffet from which we can pick and chose. We have direct commands on behaviour and not a single scripture to refute them. Do we have to like them? No! God states plainly that His thoughts are not out thoughts and our ways our not His ways. The only reason this issue ever comes up is strictly a Western mentality and nothing more. How would someone who had never been exposed to Christians and read the Bible see these verses?
 
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Judy02

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Should women teach?

(1 tim 2 NASB)

11 A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness.

12

But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.

13 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve.

14

And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.

15 But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint.

Some background information:

Ephesus, where this letter was delivered housed the most famous shrine ever built to the great earth mother, and it did wonders for the tourist trade. They called her Artemis and her magnificent temple attracted thousands of worshippers from far and wide every day. Supported on a hundred massive columns, it was one of the seven wonders of the world. I saw the remains of some of those columns, on a day trip to Ephesus as part of a package tour to Turkey, a welcome relief from lying on a beach in rows with hundreds of other British tourists. Judging by the massive bits and pieces still remaining, the temple must have been quite breathtaking - a vast ornate building that seemed to reach up to the heavens. Inside the temple, stood a huge statue of the goddess. She wore a high crown, representing the walls of a city, built on her benevolence. In cities other than Ephesus her devotees praised her perpetual chastity. In Ephesus they worshipped her for her surrendee to love without restraint - no doubt an attractive option for pilgrims. Sexual ecstasy was a means of direct contact with the deity herself.
Living in such an eroticized culture, it is easy to see how some of the church members might have confused ancient mythology with Christian doctrine, Artemis with Eve, the first mother. Whatever their hersy, it seems clear in Paul's letter to Timothy that it was preached by none other than the Church leaders or teachers (1 Timothy 1:3,7), and that their greatest fans were a number of women who had not only opened their homes to them, but were now actively involved in propagating ideas themselves. Presumably this particular group included a number of widows. In 1 Timothy 5, Paul appears to imply that young widows are universally wanton gadabouts, idle busybodies, and gossips. It's not really likely however, that Paul thought all young widows everywhere were morally suspect. He calls these particular widows 'gossips' and 'busybodies' (1 Tim 5:13). The greek for gossips phlyaroi has nothing to do with passing on tasty titbits of information. It means to talk nonsense or untruthfulness. The actual translation of 'busybodies' or periergoi is 'workers of magic'. In other words, he describes these particular widows in the same terms as the false teachers - foolish, empty headed (1 Tim 4:1). They had been seduced by an early form of gnostic hersy which turned Christian truth on its head. According to the Clark Kroegers, this heresy said that the Creator, the God of the Bible, was evil, because he had made the material world. The serpent brought salvation by helping human beings to shake off the deception, and Eve who brought this secret knowledge in the world when she ate from the tree, was the mediator between human beings and Satan. Sexual license was therefore a religious experience, an acceptable way of connecting human flesh with Eve, the divine mother figure.

It's hardly surprising therefore, that Paul is so outspoken in this letter to the young pastor he has so carefully mentored. The evils of society were all there in Ephesus, and they cannot be allowed to encroach on the Church.

Authentein was the greek word translated as 'authority' in this sentence is particularly strong, and not used in any other part of the New Testament. It had no suggestion of usurping authority until the third or fourth century. In Richard and Catherine Clark Kroeger were forced to turn to greek drama for clues to its original meaning. They concluded that authentein was in fact an extremely rare verb. It's literal meaning was 'to thurst', presumably with a sword, and it was used by greek dramatists to refer to murder or suicide. In greek mythology, there was often a close association between sex and death. The sword was also a phallic symbol, which gave authentein a slang meaning at the time of Paul. It was in fact a rather coarse word for sexual relations. Why would a nice jewish boy like paul, a rabbi at that, resort to such strong language? It would appear that these women in Ephesus were using their sexual charms to seduce and ensnare susceptible men, to entice them in as new followers of their heresy. This is not just erroneous, but downright evil.
'For Adam was formed first, then Eve' Paul continues. 'And Adam was not the one deceived, it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.' This has nothing whatsoever to do with superior male intellect or moral judgement. Nor is Paul suggesting that woman is more vulnerable or susceptible to sin. In fact, in his letter to the Corinthian church, Paul lays the blame for the fall firmly at Adam's door. (1 Cor 15:22). Nor is Paul establishing a hierarchical order in creation. That would be a denial of the God given equality of all human beings, irrespective of race or gender. Rather Paul is issuing an out and out challenge to the way certain women in Ephesus were manipulating the Genesis story. He had to explain to them that Eve was not the earth goddess and couldn't reproduce without a relationship with Adam. Greek mythology was often confused with Christian teaching. At creation, men were not given authority over women, nor were women given authority over men. It was a partnership, check out the first few chapters. Women were never intended to use their sexuality to control, subvert, manipulate, or dominate men. Paul was setting the record straight. It is hradly surprising therefore that he told timothy to silence this pernicious group.

'Learning in quietness' does not mean, shut up, but rather with a quiet demeanour. Carefully translated in context, the verse begins to look like this: 'I am not permitting these women to teach while they seduce men and claim they are the author of man. Instead they are to learn with humility, because Adam was created first, not Eve. In other words, they were not to be given a platform until they could prove they had learned the basics of true christian doctrine and were disabused of their subversive dangerous ideas. There would be no more revealing clothes, no more eyeing up anything in a toga, no more flirting or suggestive behaviour all condemned by Paul in the strongest terms (1 Timothy 2:9). Instead they would submit to learning a greater wisom and truth.

This could be applicable to any group easily decieved, and confusing christian doctrine with other ideas/philosophies. Surely some of u can see not all women are like that, and some are very godly women, clearly filled with the holy spirit, and capable of teaching others, and yes can even know something that some men don't. Spiritual maturity comes to how submitted to god u r, how much u read his word and be filled with his wisdom - not on what gender you are.


Among quite a few christians, there seems to be a deep seated fear that to look at a passage in its cultural context must somehow reduce its relevance and contradict Paul's teaching that 'All scripture is God breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness.' (2 Timothy 3:16). 'But Christians unlike the Jewish people, often only have a remedial knowledge of their history. They have no sense of where they came from or how they got here. There seems to be an assumption that the church simply landed one day, like a flying saucer, in its present form.
I find, putting something in its historical context, far from reducing Paul's teachings, understanding the backdroop to his letters makes it more accessible and expands its potential breadth of its application. Seeing how it was applied then, can guide us on how it should be applied today
 
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Some background information:

Ephesus, where this letter was delivered housed the most famous shrine ever built to the great earth mother, and it did wonders for the tourist trade. They called her Artemis and her magnificent temple attracted thousands of worshippers from far and wide every day. Supported on a hundred massive columns, it was one of the seven wonders of the world. I saw the remains of some of those columns, on a day trip to Ephesus as part of a package tour to Turkey, a welcome relief from lying on a beach in rows with hundreds of other British tourists. Judging by the massive bits and pieces still remaining, the temple must have been quite breathtaking - a vast ornate building that seemed to reach up to the heavens. Inside the temple, stood a huge statue of the goddess. She wore a high crown, representing the walls of a city, built on her benevolence. In cities other than Ephesus her devotees praised her perpetual chastity. In Ephesus they worshipped her for her surrendee to love without restraint - no doubt an attractive option for pilgrims. Sexual ecstasy was a means of direct contact with the deity herself.
Living in such an eroticized culture, it is easy to see how some of the church members might have confused ancient mythology with Christian doctrine, Artemis with Eve, the first mother. Whatever their hersy, it seems clear in Paul's letter to Timothy that it was preached by none other than the Church leaders or teachers (1 Timothy 1:3,7), and that their greatest fans were a number of women who had not only opened their homes to them, but were now actively involved in propagating ideas themselves. Presumably this particular group included a number of widows. In 1 Timothy 5, Paul appears to imply that young widows are universally wanton gadabouts, idle busybodies, and gossips. It's not really likely however, that Paul thought all young widows everywhere were morally suspect. He calls these particular widows 'gossips' and 'busybodies' (1 Tim 5:13). The greek for gossips phlyaroi has nothing to do with passing on tasty titbits of information. It means to talk nonsense or untruthfulness. The actual translation of 'busybodies' or periergoi is 'workers of magic'. In other words, he describes these particular widows in the same terms as the false teachers - foolish, empty headed (1 Tim 4:1). They had been seduced by an early form of gnostic hersy which turned Christian truth on its head. According to the Clark Kroegers, this heresy said that the Creator, the God of the Bible, was evil, because he had made the material world. The serpent brought salvation by helping human beings to shake off the deception, and Eve who brought this secret knowledge in the world when she ate from the tree, was the mediator between human beings and Satan. Sexual license was therefore a religious experience, an acceptable way of connecting human flesh with Eve, the divine mother figure.

It's hardly surprising therefore, that Paul is so outspoken in this letter to the young pastor he has so carefully mentored. The evils of society were all there in Ephesus, and they cannot be allowed to encroach on the Church.

Authentein was the greek word translated as 'authority' in this sentence is particularly strong, and not used in any other part of the New Testament. It had no suggestion of usurping authority until the third or fourth century. In Richard and Catherine Clark Kroeger were forced to turn to greek drama for clues to its original meaning. They concluded that authentein was in fact an extremely rare verb. It's literal meaning was 'to thurst', presumably with a sword, and it was used by greek dramatists to refer to murder or suicide. In greek mythology, there was often a close association between sex and death. The sword was also a phallic symbol, which gave authentein a slang meaning at the time of Paul. It was in fact a rather coarse word for sexual relations. Why would a nice jewish boy like paul, a rabbi at that, resort to such strong language? It would appear that these women in Ephesus were using their sexual charms to seduce and ensnare susceptible men, to entice them in as new followers of their heresy. This is not just erroneous, but downright evil.
'For Adam was formed first, then Eve' Paul continues. 'And Adam was not the one deceived, it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.' This has nothing whatsoever to do with superior male intellect or moral judgement. Nor is Paul suggesting that woman is more vulnerable or susceptible to sin. In fact, in his letter to the Corinthian church, Paul lays the blame for the fall firmly at Adam's door. (1 Cor 15:22). Nor is Paul establishing a hierarchical order in creation. That would be a denial of the God given equality of all human beings, irrespective of race or gender. Rather Paul is issuing an out and out challenge to the way certain women in Ephesus were manipulating the Genesis story. He had to explain to them that Eve was not the earth goddess and couldn't reproduce without a relationship with Adam. Greek mythology was often confused with Christian teaching. At creation, men were not given authority over women, nor were women given authority over men. It was a partnership, check out the first few chapters. Women were never intended to use their sexuality to control, subvert, manipulate, or dominate men. Paul was setting the record straight. It is hradly surprising therefore that he told timothy to silence this pernicious group.

'Learning in quietness' does not mean, shut up, but rather with a quiet demeanour. Carefully translated in context, the verse begins to look like this: 'I am not permitting these women to teach while they seduce men and claim they are the author of man. Instead they are to learn with humility, because Adam was created first, not Eve. In other words, they were not to be given a platform until they could prove they had learned the basics of true christian doctrine and were disabused of their subversive dangerous ideas. There would be no more revealing clothes, no more eyeing up anything in a toga, no more flirting or suggestive behaviour all condemned by Paul in the strongest terms (1 Timothy 2:9). Instead they would submit to learning a greater wisom and truth.

This could be applicable to any group easily decieved, and confusing christian doctrine with other ideas/philosophies. Surely some of u can see not all women are like that, and some are very godly women, clearly filled with the holy spirit, and capable of teaching others, and yes can even know something that some men don't. Spiritual maturity comes to how submitted to god u r, how much u read his word and be filled with his wisdom - not on what gender you are.

Among quite a few christians, there seems to be a deep seated fear that to look at a passage in its cultural context must somehow reduce its relevance and contradict Paul's teaching that 'All scripture is God breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness.' (2 Timothy 3:16). 'But Christians unlike the Jewish people, often only have a remedial knowledge of their history. They have no sense of where they came from or how they got here. There seems to be an assumption that the church simply landed one day, like a flying saucer, in its present form.
I find, putting something in its historical context, far from reducing Paul's teachings, understanding the backdroop to his letters makes it more accessible and expands its potential breadth of its application. Seeing how it was applied then, can guide us on how it should be applied today

The authors know history and culture, but ignore some passages and misleadingly emphasize others. For instance, they omit the portion about women asking their husbands. Further, they're wrong that their isn't a creation order. We rule over animals Ge 1:26, we are lower than angels Ps 8:5. Men rule the house, God rules the Church.

"But if any man does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever. " 1 Timothy 5:8
"But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ. " 1 Cor 11:3
"Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, " Ephesians 5:25
"Husbands, love your wives and do not be embittered against them. " Col 3:19

AUTHENTEIN
 
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