Should we put the species of Earth under deliberate pressure?

[Jimmy D]

Stasis is an established fact because it can be observed in the so called fossil record.

Why do you say "so called"? Very strange.

Also observed in the fossil record is the sudden, fully formed appearance of most some argue all life forms that then exhibit this stasis throughout their history of existence!

Fully formed you say? What would a half formed creature look like?

 

[Ophiolite]

Fully formed you say? What would a half formed creature look like?

I had seven really sharp answers to that, but on reflection they would all have constituted goading, flaming, or both.

 

[DaveISBA]

Observations of relatively explosive events that generate novel species and higher taxa are also well recorded in the fossil record. Something you have either ignored or were ignorant of. I suspect the former and ask why you ignored it?

By explosive events I assume you are referring to the proposal of "punctuated equilibrium"? No...I haven't ignored nor am I ignorant of PE! It is where evolution is said to be marked by sharp bursts of change" which was proposed to try to explain away the lack of intermediates in the fossil record? The problem with this explanation is that supposedly it happens so rapidly that it also leaves no evidence! In a presentation on PE by the University of California Museum of Paleontology in an article entitled (More on punctuated equilibrium): "No fossils representing transitional forms are preserved because of their relatively small population size, the rapid pace of change, and their isolated location" How convenient!

 

[Jimmy D]

In a presentation on PE by the University of California Museum of Paleontology in an article entitled (More on punctuated equilibrium): "No fossils representing transitional forms are preserved because of their relatively small population size, the rapid pace of change, and their isolated location" How convenient!

That's referring specifically to small, hypothetical population of mollusks and is only part of a very simplified presentation.

Had you bothered reading the entire presentation however, you might have seen this bit ...

"Evolution appears to happen in sharp jumps associated with speciation events.

We observe similar patterns in the fossil records of many organisms. For example, the fossil records of certain foraminiferans (single-celled protists with shells) are consistent with a punctuated pattern."

How inconvenient!

 

[SLP]

Hi there,

So I know we are sort of expected to debate here, but for some reason people think I am debating even when I am just asking a question. Like here:

I am asking, should we put the species of Earth under deliberate pressure?

Realistically, I don't know.

Maybe just see if you can answer it??

yeah, sure golly - I mean no species alive today is under any kind of selective pressure, so....

But then, what if we interrupt the pressure?

 

[SLP]

So we should see if we can get cows from dogs?

Or chickens from apes?

Or whatever??

Why try things so stupid?

Better yet, try to get a fully formed human male from dust!

 

[DaveISBA]

The mollusks was used as example of supposed

That's referring specifically to small, hypothetical population of mollusks and is only part of a very simplified presentation.

Had you bothered reading the entire presentation however, you might have seen this bit ...

"Evolution appears to happen in sharp jumps associated with speciation events.

We observe similar patterns in the fossil records of many organisms. For example, the fossil records of certain foraminiferans (single-celled protists with shells) are consistent with a punctuated pattern."

How inconvenient!

What was specifically stated about the mollusk charts were: "Here's an example of how the model works" the model being "punctuated equilibrium". PE is claimed to be responsible for (most evolution) regardless of just this one example!
Steven M. Stanley, American paleontologist and evolutionary biologist (New Evolutionary Timetable) pp.77, 110 "The record now reveals that species typically survive for a hundred thousand generations, or even a million or more, without evolving very much. We seem forced to conclude that most evolution takes place rapidly...a punctuational model of evolution...operated by a natural mechanism whose major effects are wrought exactly where we are least able to study them in small, localized, transitory populations. ...The point here is that if the transition was typically rapid and the population small and localized, fossil evidence of the event would never be found." So we can never know if PE really ever occurred...how inconvenient!

Foraminifera would be a rather poor example for a supposed PE theory of evolution! Although they come in a variety of different shells they are still one-celled Foraminifera and have been for what is claimed to be the last 500 million years which demonstrates (stasis) not evolution!

 

[Ophiolite]

Foraminifera would be a rather poor example for a supposed PE theory of evolution! Although they come in a variety of different shells they are still one-celled Foraminifera and have been for what is claimed to be the last 500 million years which demonstrates (stasis) not evolution!

Of course you are totally correct. We are just multi-cellular chordates and have been for the last 500 million years plus which demonstrates stasis not evolution.

 

[Jimmy D]

The mollusks was used as example of supposed

What was specifically stated about the mollusk charts were: "Here's an example of how the model works" the model being "punctuated equilibrium". PE is claimed to be responsible for (most evolution) regardless of just this one example!
Steven M. Stanley, American paleontologist and evolutionary biologist (New Evolutionary Timetable) pp.77, 110 "The record now reveals that species typically survive for a hundred thousand generations, or even a million or more, without evolving very much. We seem forced to conclude that most evolution takes place rapidly...a punctuational model of evolution...operated by a natural mechanism whose major effects are wrought exactly where we are least able to study them in small, localized, transitory populations. ...The point here is that if the transition was typically rapid and the population small and localized, fossil evidence of the event would never be found." So we can never know if PE really ever occurred...how inconvenient!

Foraminifera would be a rather poor example for a supposed PE theory of evolution! Although they come in a variety of different shells they are still one-celled Foraminifera and have been for what is claimed to be the last 500 million years which demonstrates (stasis) not evolution!

Yes, I did read and understand it thanks.

Please don’t waste everyone’s time by copying quote mines from creationist websites. We’ve seen time and again how they misrepresent the views of whoever they’re quoting.

Please link to the relevant text, preferably with out the suspicious ellipses, or pipe down.

 

[SLP]

The mollusks was used as example of supposed

What was specifically stated about the mollusk charts were: "Here's an example of how the model works" the model being "punctuated equilibrium". PE is claimed to be responsible for (most evolution) regardless of just this one example!
Steven M. Stanley, American paleontologist and evolutionary biologist (New Evolutionary Timetable) pp.77, 110 "The record now reveals that species typically survive for a hundred thousand generations, or even a million or more, without evolving very much. We seem forced to conclude that most evolution takes place rapidly...a punctuational model of evolution...operated by a natural mechanism whose major effects are wrought exactly where we are least able to study them in small, localized, transitory populations. ...The point here is that if the transition was typically rapid and the population small and localized, fossil evidence of the event would never be found." So we can never know if PE really ever occurred...how inconvenient!

Foraminifera would be a rather poor example for a supposed PE theory of evolution! Although they come in a variety of different shells they are still one-celled Foraminifera and have been for what is claimed to be the last 500 million years which demonstrates (stasis) not evolution!

What other quotes are you going to present from 'Genesis Park' without attribution?

"“The record now reveals that species typically survive for a hundred thousand generations, or even a million or more, without evolving very much. We seem forced to conclude that most evolution takes place rapidly…a punctuational model of evolution…operated by a natural mechanism whose major effects are wrought exactly where we are least able to study them – in small, localized, transitory populations…The point here is that if the transition was typically rapid and the population small and localized, fossil evidence of the event would never be found.” (Stanley, S.M., New Evolutionary Timetable, 1981, pp.77, 110.)"​

Ellipses and all.

Are we discussing things with you, or 'Genesis Park'. and did you really think that plagiarizing/paraphrasing a hack site is the best way to go?

 

[Jimmy D]

What other quotes are you going to present from 'Genesis Park' without attribution?

"“The record now reveals that species typically survive for a hundred thousand generations, or even a million or more, without evolving very much. We seem forced to conclude that most evolution takes place rapidly…a punctuational model of evolution…operated by a natural mechanism whose major effects are wrought exactly where we are least able to study them – in small, localized, transitory populations…The point here is that if the transition was typically rapid and the population small and localized, fossil evidence of the event would never be found.” (Stanley, S.M., New Evolutionary Timetable, 1981, pp.77, 110.)"​

Ellipses and all.

Are we discussing things with you, or 'Genesis Park'. and did you really think that plagiarizing/paraphrasing a hack site is the best way to go?

Bit slow off the mark there

 

[SLP]

A good example of deliberate selection pressure, is the glow-in-the-dark kittens (modified cat genome, to reflect uv light).

Um, wow, no, that is not selection pressure, that is an experiment.

Do you really not know the difference?

 

[SLP]

Bit slow off the mark there

I'm not feeling well....

 

[DaveISBA]

What other quotes are you going to present from 'Genesis Park' without attribution?

"“The record now reveals that species typically survive for a hundred thousand generations, or even a million or more, without evolving very much. We seem forced to conclude that most evolution takes place rapidly…a punctuational model of evolution…operated by a natural mechanism whose major effects are wrought exactly where we are least able to study them – in small, localized, transitory populations…The point here is that if the transition was typically rapid and the population small and localized, fossil evidence of the event would never be found.” (Stanley, S.M., New Evolutionary Timetable, 1981, pp.77, 110.)"​

Ellipses and all.

Are we discussing things with you, or 'Genesis Park'. and did you really think that plagiarizing/paraphrasing a hack site is the best way to go?

What are you talking about, plagiarizing? That's passing someone else's work off as your own! If you noticed they are quotes with a source for the quotes containing the author's name meaning no plagiarism! It's not paraphrasing or expressing the meaning of the writer's words using (different words) because they are (direct quotes) straight from his book! I know they are direct quotes because I borrowed his book (New Evolutionary Timetable) from an online library to verify the quotes! I suggest you lookup the meaning of words before you use them!

 

[DaveISBA]

Yes, I did read and understand it thanks.

Please don’t waste everyone’s time by copying quote mines from creationist websites. We’ve seen time and again how they misrepresent the views of whoever they’re quoting.

Please link to the relevant text, preferably with out the suspicious ellipses, or pipe down.

Isn't it interesting that it's perfectly alright for everybody else to drive home a given point on a subject by referring to quotes from experts in their field! News papers, Journals, magazines, books, etc. do this all the time, but for creationists it becomes quote mining?
For one thing I try to verify quotes from the actually books, from scientific journal and magazine that promote evolution or from the ant-creationists site talkorigins. org who attempts to explain away these quotes...oh but they don't quote mine in the process!
Even if the quotes were from creationists sites that does not change the fact that they are still actual direct quotes from the authors!
I get a feeling when people tell you to please stop doing something you've hit a nerve...so I guess I'll just keep doing it! I borrowed the book (New Evolutionary Timetable) from an online library to verify those quotes!

 

[Jimmy D]

I know they are direct quotes because I borrowed his book (New Evolutionary Timetable) from an online library to verify the quotes! I suggest you lookup the meaning of words before you use them!

It's a bit of a coincidence that you have the same ellipses and missing portions of text as all the creationist quote-miners. What are the chances?

Maybe you could use your online copy to provide us with the entire passage? Or link to it?

 

[Speedwell]

Isn't it interesting that it's perfectly alright for everybody else to drive home a given point on a subject by referring to quotes from experts in their field! News papers, Journals, magazines, books, etc. do this all the time, but for creationists it becomes quote mining?
For one thing I try to verify quotes from the actually books, from scientific journal and magazine that promote evolution or from the ant-creationists site talkorigins. org who attempts to explain away these quotes...oh but they don't quote mine in the process!
Even if the quotes were from creationists sites that does not change the fact that they are still actual direct quotes from the authors!
I get a feeling when people tell you to please stop doing something you've hit a nerve...so I guess I'll just keep doing it! I borrowed the book (New Evolutionary Timetable) from an online library to verify those quotes!

"There is no God." Psalm 14:1

 

[Jimmy D]

Isn't it interesting that it's perfectly alright for everybody else to drive home a given point on a subject by referring to quotes from experts in their field!

Yep, if they link to the original source.

News papers, Journals, magazines, books, etc. do this all the time, but for creationists it becomes quote mining?

Hey, it's what they do. If you can't link to the original source it's suspicious.

For one thing I try to verify quotes from the actually books, from scientific journal and magazine that promote evolution or from the ant-creationists site talkorigins. org who attempts to explain away these quotes...oh but they don't quote mine in the process!

Good for you.

If you're aware of talkorigins' attempt to expose some of these quotemines you will know why most people will be wary.

When you are quoting Stanley to bolster your assertion that "we can never know if PE really ever occurred" something is amiss, because Stanley holds exactly the opposite view.

Even if the quotes were from creationists sites that does not change the fact that they are still actual direct quotes from the authors!

I wouldn't know, you didn't link to the source.

I get a feeling when people tell you to please stop doing something you've hit a nerve...so I guess I'll just keep doing it! I borrowed the book (New Evolutionary Timetable) from an online library to verify those quotes!

Hit a nerve? It's a moot point as far as I'm concerned, I appreciate that "rapid" speciation of small populations might not leave much evidence in the fossil record. It's a hardly a problem, we have mountains of evidence from every branch of the relevant fields that confirm that common descent is a fact.

You're tilting at windmills Don Quixote.

 

[SLP]

What are you talking about, plagiarizing? That's passing someone else's work off as your own! If you noticed they are quotes with a source for the quotes containing the author's name meaning no plagiarism! It's not paraphrasing or expressing the meaning of the writer's words using (different words) because they are (direct quotes) straight from his book! I know they are direct quotes because I borrowed his book (New Evolutionary Timetable) from an online library to verify the quotes! I suggest you lookup the meaning of words before you use them!

It is so odd that you just happened to put ellipses in the EXACT SAME SPOT as the clowns at 'Genesis Park' did...


Here is a copy-paste of the quote from 'Genesis Park':

“The record now reveals that species typically survive for a hundred thousand generations, or even a million or more, without evolving very much. We seem forced to conclude that most evolution takes place rapidly…a punctuational model of evolution…operated by a natural mechanism whose major effects are wrought exactly where we are least able to study them – in small, localized, transitory populations…The point here is that if the transition was typically rapid and the population small and localized, fossil evidence of the event would never be found.” (Stanley, S.M., New Evolutionary Timetable, 1981, pp.77, 110.)"​

And here is a copy-paste of what you are trying to pretend you got from the actual book:

Steven M. Stanley, American paleontologist and evolutionary biologist (New Evolutionary Timetable) pp.77, 110 "The record now reveals that species typically survive for a hundred thousand generations, or even a million or more, without evolving very much. We seem forced to conclude that most evolution takes place rapidly...a punctuational model of evolution...operated by a natural mechanism whose major effects are wrought exactly where we are least able to study them in small, localized, transitory populations. ...The point here is that if the transition was typically rapid and the population small and localized, fossil evidence of the event would never be found." So we can never know if PE really ever occurred...how inconvenient!​

Sure, you put the title of the book in the front (very clever), but the actual quote is VERBATIM.

I find it implausible that you decided to ellipse-out the exact same things that 'Genesis Park' did.... Because those ellipses do not exist in the original source:

The record now reveals that species typically survive for a hundred thousand generations, or even a million or more, without evolving very much. We seem forced to conclude that most evolution takes place rapidly, when species come into being by the evolutionary divergence of small populations from parent species. After their origins, most species undergo little evolution before becoming extinct....​

So explain how you decided to remove the EXACT same chunk that other YEC hacks did....

Although, to be fair, you could have plagiarized it from any number of sleazy creationist sites - like this one:

“The record now reveals that species typically survive for a hundred thousand generations, or even a million or more, without evolving very much. We seem forced to conclude that most evolution takes place rapidly…a punctuational model of evolution…operated by a natural mechanism whose major effects are wrought exactly where we are least able to study them in small, localized, transitory populations. …The point here is that if the transition was typically rapid and the population small and localized, fossil evidence of the event would never be found.”, New Evolutionary Timetable, 1981 pp.77, 110​

Same ellipses...


So save your mock indignation for somewhere else. Sorry, Charlie, we are a bit more sophisticated than the typical creationist... and we know how to use Google...

 

[SLP]

It's a bit of a coincidence that you have the same ellipses and missing portions of text as all the creationist quote-miners. What are the chances?

Maybe you could use your online copy to provide us with the entire passage? Or link to it?

It is amazing how often creationists place so much trust in online YEC sites to be honest about their use of quotes - so much so that they will just copy-paste the quote from the site and present it as if they had read the original source themselves.

Caught a creationist (on this forum, I think, when I was active way back) doing this who insisted he had the book in question. I actually DID have the book, and I asked him to write the sentence that follows the quote he had provided... with ellipses...

And he stopped replying to me...

I mean come on - do they not realize we have the internet, too?