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Should we put the species of Earth under deliberate pressure?

Discussion in 'Creation & Evolution' started by Gottservant, Feb 1, 2020.

  1. Ophiolite

    Ophiolite Recalcitrant Procrastinating Ape

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    Balderdash! Many of the numerous dog breeds have provided enhanced performance at the tasks for which they were developed. Similar improvements may be noted for all domesticated animal species and for practically all our food crops.

    Warning: stand by for the imminent moving of goal posts by the responder!
     
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  2. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    That's true. When removed from the natural environment artificial enhancement selection can make specializations possible.
     
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  3. grasping the after wind

    grasping the after wind That's grasping after the wind

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    You are not debating but only asking the simple question "Should we put the species of Earth under deliberate pressure?"

    To answer that question I must ask myself what does Gottservant mean by the phrase "the species of Earth"? I must assume by Earth you are referring to the planet. AFAIK there is only the one Earth and no other Earths that might be included in a species of Earth . That being the case, I must then assume that by the species of Earth you are referring to the many species of animals and plants that inhabit the Earth. Assuming I am correct in those other assumptions, my answer to the question "Should we put the species of Earth under deliberate pressure ?" would be no.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2020
  4. Shemjaza

    Shemjaza Regular Member Supporter

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    Trivially false.

    Cows are more docile and delicious then their wild varieties, and have thrived because of this.

    Dogs are helpful and fun and now happily living in vast numbers across the planet while wolves are almost extinct.

    EDIT: I mean, what Ophiolite said. :)
     
  5. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    Only if protected from nature with houses, fences, and barns.
    [​IMG]
    And fed by hand. That's like saying a goldfish is an improved species.

    [​IMG]



    Wolf/Conservation status
    Least Concern
    Population stable
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2020
  6. Shemjaza

    Shemjaza Regular Member Supporter

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    These are species with new traits for new environments. It's like saying that a polar bear's cold adaptations aren't improvements on the grizzly bear-like ancestor because they would kill them in the tropics.

    I'm glad the current wolf population is stable, but the vast majority of their former territory is just gone.

    How many wolves are there in California, England, France... Compared to a few thousand years ago?

    (That conservation status of wolves had realty made my night, thanks for that).
     
  7. Ophiolite

    Ophiolite Recalcitrant Procrastinating Ape

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    Please recall that biological improvements are not absolutes, but relatives. They are improvements relative to the environment they inhabit. You really ought to read Darwin's On the Origin of Species. His exposition of artificial selection and its relationship to natural selection is telling.
     
  8. DaveISBA

    DaveISBA New Member

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    Telling? Darwin's assertion was that just as breeders could use selection to change the characters of a particular breed, nature too could select and thus modify a wild species. How can the breeding of plants and animals have a relationship to natural selection when after all it is indeed artificial and requires human intervention? Selective breeding takes certain characteristics and breeds the plants or animals based on these selections which means improvements at a cost? Other characteristics are lost resulting in populations that have less genetic diversity, producing plants and animals that are less fit, in the case of dog breeding, prone to disorders which is the opposite of "survival of the fittest" and in no way mirrors what is observed in the wild!
    What is observed in the wild and in the fossil record is that populations exhibit stasis...a tendency to toward maintaining their original characteristics!
     
  9. Shemjaza

    Shemjaza Regular Member Supporter

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    Human selective breeding mimics extreme pressures put on species in the wild. If there is a particular trait that becomes almost essential for survival, like for example resistance to an extreme plague, it will become the only trait that matters.

    Doesn't matter what other negatives you have if you are one of the few survivors.

    Populations tend towards stasis in stable environments... when it gets unstable is when you get more rapid speciation and adaptation (also much more extinction).
     
  10. Ophiolite

    Ophiolite Recalcitrant Procrastinating Ape

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    Observations of relatively explosive events that generate novel species and higher taxa are also well recorded in the fossil record. Something you have either ignored or were ignorant of. I suspect the former and ask why you ignored it?
     
  11. Gottservant

    Gottservant God loves your words, may men love them also Supporter

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    A good example of deliberate selection pressure, is the glow-in-the-dark kittens (modified cat genome, to reflect uv light).

    Now that their design is more unique, they are more likely to be chosen as pets?

    Or does Evolution simply say "other cats will develop glow-in-the-darkness to compete with kittens that already have it"?
     
  12. Warden_of_the_Storm

    Warden_of_the_Storm Well-Known Member

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    No. Evolution says nothing. Evolution is not a thing that speaks. It is a process, nothing more.

    And as an aside: a glow in the dark kitten would be a NIGHTMARE! 3AM zoomies with a glow in the dark cat that has spent its entire day in the sun? No thank you!
     
  13. Gottservant

    Gottservant God loves your words, may men love them also Supporter

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    Yeah but you see what I am saying right: kittens don't fight with kittens to survive - Evolution says normal kittens will just die out, because no one wants them anymore, until mutation will gives them something better than glow-in-the-darkness.

    I mean realistically there is "a" challenge for glow-in-the-dark kittens, to be the greatest glow-in-the-dark kitten possible, but as pets part of the struggle to survive is mitigated - things go from survival of the fittest to popularity of the cloning (because people want the same glow-in-the-dark kitten that died already).

    Really Evolution, if it was worth its salt as a theory, would have some advice to give on this kind of development: you are in danger of becoming a theory for theory's sake, if you have no philosophical balance and weight to bring to the table. I mean if you are really telling me that glow-in-the-darkness is not relevant to survival, give me some other word than Evolution, to help me evaluate the meaning of it - just daring to believe Evolution answers everything, is naive if you can't back it up where natural and unnatural Evolution part company?
     
  14. Shemjaza

    Shemjaza Regular Member Supporter

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    The new glow in the dark trait for cats does make them more likely to be selected for as pets. And probably likely to get opportunities to breed.

    However if the process of being built with glow genres makes it difficult or impossible for them to breed then it's a dead end as far as evolution of concerned.

    No. In nature when a new trait occurs that doesn't make or spontaneously appear in others of the population.
     
  15. Gottservant

    Gottservant God loves your words, may men love them also Supporter

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    But that is a logical reading of Evolution? If there is no telos (especially if there is no telos)?
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2020
  16. Shemjaza

    Shemjaza Regular Member Supporter

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    False. Glow in the darkness might well be a great advantage as a pet... but it wouldn't totally replace all cat advantages.

    Living as pets for humans is the niche for domestic pets. Survival is about fitting the niche, being gimmiky and glowy is probably an advantage, but it's not an overwhelming one.

    If by unnatural evolution you mean human directed engineering or selective breeding then they are totally relevant to the theory of evolution.

    They just introduce some new sources of genetic variation, some new mechanisms for breeding and some interesting new selection pressures.

    That's if you are in fact breeding these new animals, not just building them like biological machines. If they can breed and pass on their traits then evolution is relevant, if not then it isn't.

    It's just a statement of fact about how the natural world works.

    Can you define what you mean by "telos" and how it relates to evolution?
     
  17. Ophiolite

    Ophiolite Recalcitrant Procrastinating Ape

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    My "Agree" was prompted by this part of your post (though I do agree with the first part also). I am startled enough when my cat jumps onto the bed at 2:30 am, landing 1" from my nose, requesting a night time meal. If that event were intensified by converting a familiar face to a luminescent apparition I might well instantaneously gestate kittens of my own!
     
  18. Warden_of_the_Storm

    Warden_of_the_Storm Well-Known Member

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    You need to stop thinking of evolution as something that gives advice, talks or any of the things you think evolution does.
    Evolution is a process. THAT'S ALL IT IS.
     
  19. Ophiolite

    Ophiolite Recalcitrant Procrastinating Ape

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    And @Gottservant , it is a process that effects populations, not the individual. Individuals cannot evolve. Changes in the somatic cells are not heritable. Changes in the germ cells benefit (or inhibit, or have no effect on) the offspring, not the individual whose germ cells have mutated.

    You need to stop equivocating the multiple uses of the word evolution.
     
  20. DaveISBA

    DaveISBA New Member

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    Human selective breeding does not mimics what occurs in the wild. For instance using dog breeding from wolf ancestors as an example of how evolution would work in the wild is ludicrous because in one of the oldest example of a wolf is, as reported by the Japan Times, a wolf fossil said to be 1.7 million years old from Tokyo Japan. Characteristics of the wolf fossils were said to be almost identical to those of wolves seen today!

    Stasis is an established fact because it can be observed in the so called fossil record. Also observed in the fossil record is the sudden, fully formed appearance of most some argue all life forms that then exhibit this stasis throughout their history of existence!

    Selective breeding has created fitness shortfalls! How long do you think a chihuahua would last in the wild?
     
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