Should we deny the poor.......

[OldWiseGuy]

Lack of self-control is a choice?

Giving in to harmful desires is more often a choice than not.

 

[quatona]

Giving in to harmful desires is more often a choice than not.

...and you know when it is and when it si not?

 

[Robert65]

No need. Your post supports all my claims. This, from a site I would have cited, repeats what many other such sites say.

"Drug addiction can start with experimental use of a (illegal) recreational drug in social situations, and, for some people, the drug use becomes more frequent. For others, particularly with (illegal) opioids, drug addiction begins with exposure to prescribed medications, or receiving medications from a friend or relative (also illegal) who has been prescribed the medication."

Italics and parenthesis mine.

"start with experimental use" does not = cause of addiction. Shopping can lead to a shopping addiction yet shopping is not the cause of the addiction.

 

[Robert65]

Giving in to harmful desires is more often a choice than not.

Is the initial choice to use drugs is a focal point of your argument? If so how one is raised plays a key role in how one deals with desire. This is why being a good role model and loving parent is so important to the development of a human. Sadly many children are abused and/or neglected which denies them the tools to to live a healthy life. In the face of unrelenting misery and no learned options, turning to drugs is the only option they see or know of. Another factor is brain chemistry as some people have abnormal brain structure which can hinder the ability to control desire.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

"start with experimental use" does not = cause of addiction. Shopping can lead to a shopping addiction yet shopping is not the cause of the addiction.

Addiction begins with use, any way you slice it.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Is the initial choice to use drugs is a focal point of your argument? If so how one is raised plays a key role in how one deals with desire. This is why being a good role model and loving parent is so important to the development of a human. Sadly many children are abused and/or neglected which denies them the tools to to live a healthy life. In the face of unrelenting misery and no learned options, turning to drugs is the only option they see or know of. Another factor is brain chemistry as some people have abnormal brain structure which can hinder the ability to control desire.

I'll grant that a small minority starts out that way, but even that must be examined closely. Many so-called reasons are really just weak excuses.

Do you think these are unaware of their "options"?

 

[gaara4158]

.....their freedom to be poor? Millions have chosen to remain poor, sick, and perhaps drug-addicted. It seems to me that only by locking them up in a rehab center of some sort that we can deal with their problems. Should we do this, or allow them the life they have chosen?

You are a parody of American conservatism. Bravo, sir.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

You are a parody of American conservatism. Bravo, sir.

Actually I'm quite serious about this topic.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

...and you know when it is and when it si not?

I don't know the exact percentage of either.

 

[gaara4158]

Actually I'm quite serious about this topic.

So then you just don’t recognize the differences in cultural influence, education, intelligence, and opportunity between poor people and yourself? It’s all just an exercise of their freedom to you? Ok. Noted.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

So then you just don’t recognize the differences in cultural influence, education, intelligence, and opportunity between poor people and yourself? It’s all just an exercise of their freedom to you? Ok. Noted.

Of course I recognize it...been there, done that.

 

[gaara4158]

Of course I recognize it...been there, done that.

Then your lack of empathy does not come from ignorance. Is it pathological?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Then your lack of empathy does not come from ignorance. Is it pathological?

I don't lack empathy (understanding) but I'm short on sympathy (feeling sorry for them).

 

[Phil 1:21]

Should we deny the poor? Of course not.

Should we put them into a welfare system that traps them into a cycle of poverty? Of course not.

Should we instead offer them the tools and assistance they need to get themselves out of poverty if they so choose? Absolutely.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Should we deny the poor? Of course not.

Should we put them into a welfare system that traps them into a cycle of poverty? Of course not.

Should we instead offer them the tools and assistance they need to get themselves out of poverty is they so choose? Absolutely.

And they should be allowed all the time they need to attain it. (It took me decades to get out of my financial woes.)

 

[Robert65]

Addiction begins with use, any way you slice it.

The use is not the cause of the addiction. Locking up addicts in rehab does not work as you can lead a horse to water but cannot make it drink. I was sent to treatment at least 3 times to no effect as it was not my choice and I had no intention to stop. Those three times were just mini vacations and the moment I was out the door I picked up right where I left off. When I quit abusing drugs was when I hit rock bottom and came a finger twitch from blowing my head off. I quit when I was ready to and it was my choice. The problem with choice is few are ever able to summon the stregnth to stop. I was lucky as I was 22 and was not a hard drug user thus the hook was not firmly set, if it had been then I would not be talking to you as I would be dead or locked up in prison by now. Treatment works for at best 10% of people and I am being generous here as the more realistic number is probibly around 5%. I have been interested in the Harm Reduction programs in other countries that have yielded promising results.

 

[Robert65]

I'll grant that a small minority starts out that way, but even that must be examined closely. Many so-called reasons are really just weak excuses.

Do you think these are unaware of their "options"?

Options are all but impotent once the hook is set. Once the hook is set the addict is all but a dead man/woman walking as by that time choice is no longer an option save rare exceptions to such a brutal and unforgiving rule. Once the hook is set the best chances for recovery is Harm Reduction programs in which the addict is given safe spaces to use their drug where councilors are on staff to ply them with messages of hope and looking for those who are at the end of their rope and may have a small chance to be saved. Addiction is a bleak reality that no non-addict could ever understand as a non-addict has no frame of reference to compare it to.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

The use is not the cause of the addiction. Locking up addicts in rehab does not work as you can lead a horse to water but cannot make it drink. I was sent to treatment at least 3 times to no effect as it was not my choice and I had no intention to stop. Those three times were just mini vacations and the moment I was out the door I picked up right where I left off. When I quit abusing drugs was when I hit rock bottom and came a finger twitch from blowing my head off. I quit when I was ready to and it was my choice. The problem with choice is few are ever able to summon the stregnth to stop. I was lucky as I was 22 and was not a hard drug user thus the hook was not firmly set, if it had been then I would not be talking to you as I would be dead or locked up in prison by now. Treatment works for at best 10% of people and I am being generous here as the more realistic number is probibly around 5%. I have been interested in the Harm Reduction programs in other countries that have yielded promising results.

I have been saying this as well, that addicts generally don't want to quit using. So there comes a time to make a decision: Do we continue to pour money down the addict rat hole, or cut the addict free to drug him or her self to death, or into prison?

There's another aspect to rehab that isn't employed, that of fasting to remove all traces of drugs from the addict's system. A couple weeks of 'detox' is insufficient to remove drugs and allow damaged cells to be replace. A 'new' person must be built, free from all traces and damage. This normally takes a full year. We should try that.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Options are all but impotent once the hook is set. Once the hook is set the addict is all but a dead man/woman walking as by that time choice is no longer an option save rare exceptions to such a brutal and unforgiving rule. Once the hook is set the best chances for recovery is Harm Reduction programs in which the addict is given safe spaces to use their drug where councilors are on staff to ply them with messages of hope and looking for those who are at the end of their rope and may have a small chance to be saved. Addiction is a bleak reality that no non-addict could ever understand as a non-addict has no frame of reference to compare it to.

But we (non-addicts) are supposed to continually turn our pockets inside out to help those who have chosen to use regardless of the known risk of addiction.

When Moa took over China he made drug dealing illegal, actually executing many drug dealers. Many opium addicts were sent to small villages in the countryside and allowed to smoke themselves to death away from the general population. This worked very well then (however lately China has a growing drug problem). We should use that model, including the death penalty for dealers.

 

[Robert65]

I have been saying this as well, that addicts generally don't want to quit using. So there comes a time to make a decision: Do we continue to pour money down the addict rat hole, or cut the addict free to drug him or her self to death, or into prison?

There's another aspect to rehab that isn't employed, that of fasting to remove all traces of drugs from the addict's system. A couple weeks of 'detox' is insufficient to remove drugs and allow damaged cells to be replace. A 'new' person must be built, free from all traces and damage. This normally takes a full year. We should try that.

I agree. Also the mind must be healed from a life of dysfunction which is a monumental task.