Should we be doing more?

[ViaCrucis]

I recently visited the New Christian board here, and it got me thinking. Not the first time I've thought about this subject, but it's what led me to want to start a thread here.

Frequently the advice I see given to new Christians, or to returning Christians, or advice in general tends to be--well--bad. At least from a Lutheran perspective. So much of the advice boils down to, "You need to improve your performance" or "You need to do all these things if you want to be a Christian" or "You can't really know if you're saved unless X Y Z".

I guess what I'm saying is that so much of the dominant voice, especially for those young or inexperienced in the faith, really seems to be everything except Jesus. How could these things not be destructive and dangerous to Christian health? This basically instruction on how to shipwreck faith.

Now, I obviously don't know exactly how things are in other parts of the world, and so maybe there are places where Lutheranism does make a bigger effort to provide its own voice in the larger Christian conversation. But at least here in the US, most people couldn't even guess what Lutherans are or believe.

I know there are fantastic Lutheran voices out there in the aether, but against the background noise of "General American Religion" (perhaps the situation is more international and I should be saying "General Western Religion" or some such) it seems to hardly be even a whisper.

I know lots of Lutherans feel like I do, that there's more that we could do. There are a lot of people who aren't hearing the Gospel, they are hearing a lot of different things, but it's not the Gospel. And I grieve this, I feel this deep inside me.

This is, I think, kind of an "aimless" post, I don't know what exactly I'm looking to ask or really steer the conversation. It's just something heavy on my mind I guess.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Oops. Didn't realize this was a Lutheran thread.

 

[rockytopva]

My dad goes to an old Evangelical Lutheran Church. We had a whole neighborhood built above it with about 100 $400,000 homes. My dad wanted to go door to door inviting those families to church but could not find a soul to help. He told the pastor there that the E in ELCA means Evangelical!

 

[zippy2006]

I know there are fantastic Lutheran voices out there in the aether, but against the background noise of "General American Religion" (perhaps the situation is more international and I should be saying "General Western Religion" or some such) it seems to hardly be even a whisper.

Is the Lutheran voice proportionate to the Lutheran population?

But at least here in the US, most people couldn't even guess what Lutherans are or believe.

It's pretty easy to find out, actually. With the internet anyone can get the core doctrines from Lutheran churches in a matter of minutes. It may be that Lutherans are not advertising their beliefs very well, but I'm not convinced that Lutherans are doing worse than anyone else. I'm not even sure what that sort of advertising would look like.

In general this seems like a problem that all religious bodies have. Presumably since you are a Lutheran you believe Lutheranism has a special claim to truth and therefore lament the inability of so many to access it. But for the novice Lutheranism has no special claim to truth. What, then, will attract them? Preaching? Liturgy? Doctrine? Service? What would cause someone to grab on to Lutheranism as opposed to Evangelicalism?

 

[Newtheran]

There are a lot of people who aren't hearing the Gospel, they are hearing a lot of different things, but it's not the Gospel.

For better or worse, the largest denomination in the US that uses the word Lutheran in its title is part of that problem.

 

[archer75]

What sorts of thing do you have in mind?

 

[Tigger45]

Lutheranism is unique and IMO has the clearest exposition of the gospel among all Christian denominations but what I’ve noticed in discussions here is that it gets lost in the miriad of posted perspectives. What about starting a thread in Denomination Specific Theology titled ‘the Gosple according to Lutheranism.’

 

[hedrick]

I come from a mainline Reformed perspective, but my reaction to both New Christians and Christian Advice is the same as yours. There are too many people who are worried because of impure thoughts, and a concept of sin that is closer to the Pharisees than Jesus. But of course the harder you try to not think something, the more you do. They need to stop worrying about their own spiritual state, look at what Jesus did for them, and start doing what he taught. Not because they need to pass a test, but because that's our job. And life goes a lot better when you do what you were created to do.

A lot of the problems you observe would be solved if people focused on Jesus and their neighbor rather than themselves.

 

[hedrick]

It's pretty easy to find out, actually. With the internet anyone can get the core doctrines from Lutheran churches in a matter of minutes. It may be that Lutherans are not advertising their beliefs very well, but I'm not convinced that Lutherans are doing worse than anyone else. I'm not even sure what that sort of advertising would look like.

Lutheran theology is in fact unique. There are really only two full-scale Protestant theologies: Lutheran and Reformed, though plenty of other traditions have things that are worth paying attention to. Various versions of Reformed theology (many of them pop versions that I'm not sure Calvin would recognize) show up all the time here. Lutheranism not so much.

 

[zippy2006]

Lutheran theology is in fact unique. There are really only two full-scale Protestant theologies: Lutheran and Reformed, though plenty of other traditions have things that are worth paying attention to. Various versions of Reformed theology (many of them pop versions that I'm not sure Calvin would recognize) show up all the time here. Lutheranism not so much.

Lutherans seem to be less dialectical and polemical, which could account for the quantitative difference in their inter-denominational forum activity. Personally I browse largely on the basis of the poster, and I consider ViaCrucis' posts worth reading since they are informed, thoughtful, and eloquent. For that reason the Lutheran material I consume on CF is relatively high. Incidentally I also think this 'organic' approach is the best way to evangelize. In any case, I think his point was meant to transcend internet forums.

Uniqueness may be helpful in attracting attention, but I think other things are needed too.

 

[FireDragon76]

I recently visited the New Christian board here, and it got me thinking. Not the first time I've thought about this subject, but it's what led me to want to start a thread here.

Frequently the advice I see given to new Christians, or to returning Christians, or advice in general tends to be--well--bad. At least from a Lutheran perspective. So much of the advice boils down to, "You need to improve your performance" or "You need to do all these things if you want to be a Christian" or "You can't really know if you're saved unless X Y Z".

I guess what I'm saying is that so much of the dominant voice, especially for those young or inexperienced in the faith, really seems to be everything except Jesus. How could these things not be destructive and dangerous to Christian health? This basically instruction on how to shipwreck faith.

Now, I obviously don't know exactly how things are in other parts of the world, and so maybe there are places where Lutheranism does make a bigger effort to provide its own voice in the larger Christian conversation. But at least here in the US, most people couldn't even guess what Lutherans are or believe.

In my experience... many churches in the ELCA are pietistic and are more like Methodism. My own congregation is a rarity. So alot of ELCA Lutherans no longer have a distinctive voice. Whether that's good or bad, I actually think doesn't matter so much. I think Gnesio-Lutheranism has its own baggage (an understatement). But I'm pretty sure the pietistic emphasis is not without alot of baggage, too.

I know there are fantastic Lutheran voices out there in the aether, but against the background noise of "General American Religion" (perhaps the situation is more international and I should be saying "General Western Religion" or some such) it seems to hardly be even a whisper.

Several years ago I read of an English theologian (Daphne Hampson) who simply posited that Lutheranism's Christocentrism is irrelevant to modern trends in spirituality, that the emphasis on monergism and grace was incomprehensible in a post-Christian, post-Vatican II world. Even if our doctrines were true, ultimately they just don't make sense to people who struggle, not with traditional guilt and other moral hazards of Christendom, but with the relevance of traditional concepts of God for their lives.

I also think its telling Lutherans have little consciousness of religious pluralism. It's something we have barely dealt with in dialogues with Jews, and more recently, with Islam. Hinduism and Buddhism, both two potent intellectual influences in our modern world, have not been engaged with in any significant degree. Many modern people simply cannot take a religious organization seriously that fails to give an account for world religions. (and I can tell you, at the local level, the situation is even worse- many leaders in our church at that level are happily acting like Christianity is just a given in our culture).

Luther, Lutheranism, and Post-Christianity - Oxford Research Encyclopedia of Religion

Contrast this with Roman Catholicism and Vatican II- Lutheranism looks very much out of date on this arena. There is no Lutheran equivalent of somebody like Thomas Merton or Br. David Stendahl-Rast. We have no cultural cachet in that area.

 

[FireDragon76]

I found an article that is a potential response to the questions I raised above, drawing from Bonhoeffer and critiquing Barth and John Hick's views of religious pluralism. I like the focus on respect for the other's genuine alterity (otherness) and focusing on phenomenology instead of metaphysics of Kant (as in Barth or Hick).

Bonhoeffer and Religious Pluralism: Towards a Dialectic of Christocentric Ontology and Christocentric Alterity - END OF GOD

My pastor has taken a similar approach pastorally. There is one family in our church that is Vietnamese and have a kind of "dual belonging" to both a Buddhist temple and our congregation, an attitude that is common in Asian religions but harder to fit with a Constantinian vision of what it means to be Christian.

 

[Newtheran]

There is one family in our church that is Vietnamese and have a kind of "dual belonging" to both a Buddhist temple and our congregation, an attitude that is common in Asian religions but harder to fit with a Constantinian vision of what it means to be Christian.

Based on his own words from the gospels, it's also harder to fit with Jesus' vision of what it means to follow him. There is no religious pluralism in heaven. These two posts go back to my diagnosis above; the voice for Lutheranism in the house of Christianity seems quiet because Lutheranism is in fact much smaller than its yard signs would indicate.

 

[FireDragon76]

Based on his own words from the gospels, it's also harder to fit with Jesus' vision of what it means to follow him.

I don't accept that reading of the Gospels, because it ultimately rests on a church tradition and not serious study of the Scriptures as we would study any other ancient documents.

Based on what we can reasonably know of the historical Jesus, it's not really inconsistent. Jesus never told the Syrophoenician woman or the Centurion the Roman Road or 4 Spiritual Laws, nor did he instruct them in Luther's Smaller Catechism. They just needed something from him and he responded with love, without debating dogma and religion.

These two posts go back to my diagnosis above; the voice for Lutheranism in the house of Christianity seems quiet because Lutheranism is in fact much smaller than its yard signs would indicate.

We can argue about labels like "Lutheranism" or we can seek to follow Jesus in the world.

 

[tampasteve]

By and large out Lutheran churches have abandoned missionary or outreach work in their communities in the USA. This spans across LCMS, ECLA, WELS, etc. When was the last time your saw a Lutheran parish doing mission work at home? Passing flyers at a community event, inviting people to church, direct mail to new people in the neighborhood, new child care baskets? They just don't seem to do it, maybe they never have - but they need to.

 

[tampasteve]

For better or worse, the largest denomination in the US that uses the word Lutheran in its title is part of that problem. You cannot give away what you do not possess yourself.

Just as a reminder, on this board ELCA Lutherans are indeed considered Lutherans, Christians, and have the Gospel.

 

[Newtheran]

Jesus: "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." (John 14:6)

Firedragon76: "I don't accept that reading of the Gospels, because it ultimately rests on a church tradition and not serious study of the Scriptures..."

 

[FireDragon76]

By and large out Lutheran churches have abandoned missionary or outreach work in their communities in the USA. This spans across LCMS, ECLA, WELS, etc. When was the last time your saw a Lutheran parish doing mission work at home? Passing flyers at a community event, inviting people to church, direct mail to new people in the neighborhood, new child care baskets? They just don't seem to do it, maybe they never have - but they need to.

I don't think we have the same concept of missions that other churches do, and honestly I'm not sure we should. Pietism (which itself was not fully Lutheran) was more responsible for this idea of missions, but the more Gnesio-Lutheran tradition was more indifferent, seeing only a paternalistic role for the state in promoting state religion.

There is a possible interpretation of Bonhoeffer's theology that perhaps the end game for Christendom and Christianity as such is to die, in the same way that Bonhoeffer takes the death of God on the Cross seriously and not just a metaphor. This does not mean the end of Christ, but it does mean an end to a certain model of being Christian that is dependent on manipulating and coercing the rest of the world into Christianity, which has been paradigmatic of "evangelism" in many Christian traditions.

 

[FireDragon76]

Jesus: "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." (John 14:6)

Firedragon76: "I don't accept that reading of the Gospels, because it ultimately rests on a church tradition and not serious study of the Scriptures..."

I don't understand that in a Constantinian, exclusivist sense. Rather, Jesus embodies God's love, and wherever loving service is present, Christ is also present. That is not meant as a proposition or merely a concept, but a promise that should motivate us to engagement with the world.

 

[Resha Caner]

I know there are fantastic Lutheran voices out there in the aether, but against the background noise of "General American Religion" (perhaps the situation is more international and I should be saying "General Western Religion" or some such) it seems to hardly be even a whisper.

I feel your pain, but I don't have a solution. Most Lutherans don't have the constitution to carry the Lutheran message into the world (honestly, I'm not sure I do), nor do I think they understand it that well.