Should trying to conceive a child be made illegal if personhood starts at conception?

blackribbon

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I think you're entering the naturalistic fallacy, in that because something occurs naturally it's OK or moral.
If you ask, how can conceiving a baby be a bad thing? Well that's the point of this thread. Sure, it's part of the natural processes that as many as 50% of pregnancies end in miscarriage. But just because something occurs naturally, doesn't mean we have to like it.

I'll go back to the example I gave to Hank77.
If you let someone drive a car and half the time they kill someone, do you still let them drive?

If you let someone get pregnant and half the time they kill someone, do you still let them get pregnant?
Or is my analogy faulty because a fetus isn't a person?

Your analogy is false because it isn't comparing apples to apples. You are talking about killing and then asking about a baby dying of natural causes.

You are saying that why would we attempt to conceive a baby if it stands a chance of dying....I am saying that it does, at a rate of 100% ... every single baby conceived will die at some time. Some die naturally in the womb, some die in car accidents, some die of cancer and other diseases, and others die of natural causes related to old age. They are all 100% human. And they all die at a rate of 100%. We don't stop having babies because they might die in car accidents or of diseases. The mother didn't kill her baby that naturally miscarried. The baby simply died for a whole host of potential reasons...mostly natural. And the number of conceptions that end in miscarriage is not a known number since the majority of those babies die before the mother knows she is even pregnant.
 
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FireDragon76

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Interesting thought.
If this tiny poll is anything to go by, about half the Christians on the general theology board think babies go straight to haven or at least not to hell.
Are the souls of some babies predestined to hell?

Of course with the historically high death rate of children for hundred of thousands of years, heaven should be filled with people who have never had a conscious thought in their lifetime.

And that is a problem, how? That doesn't change our ethics of prenatal life at all, it's simply not relevant.

I am actually largely pro-choice BTW, but I think the sort of arguments you are presenting are ridiculous and won't be taken seriously by anybody that is a Christian pro-life type.
 
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blackribbon

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I'm not talking about the individuals who are stricken with grief after suffering a loss.
I'm talking about the larger society.
If you follow my logic in the opening post, as many as 4 million babies, fetuses, zygotes have to die in order to get to 4 million live births. That's a huge number. Why is it OK, why is it permissible? Is it OK because it happens naturally? Or is it OK because the unborn don't yet have the same rights as you or me?
If 4 million Americans died of smallpox every year, do you think something would be done about it?

Do you know of a way to avoid physical death? Are you under the misconception that it is avoidable to some portion of the population?...that there is something we can do about it?

As for reducing the risk of miscarriage, there is already a push for women of childbearing age to live healthy lifestyles since most of us don't know when we get pregnant until after the most critical period of development has already taken place. That is the reason why they have enrich products such as bread and cereal with things like folic acid. (wouldn't that be analogous to your finding a prevention for smallpox?)
 
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ranunculus

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And that is a problem, how? That doesn't change our ethics of prenatal life at all, it's simply not relevant.

I am actually largely pro-choice BTW, but I think the sort of arguments you are presenting are ridiculous and won't be taken seriously by anybody that is a Christian pro-life type.
I just posted this as an aside. It's not related to the OP.
 
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ranunculus

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Do you know of a way to avoid physical death? Are you under the misconception that it is avoidable to some portion of the population?...that there is something we can do about it?

As for reducing the risk of miscarriage, there is already a push for women of childbearing age to live healthy lifestyles since most of us don't know when we get pregnant until after the most critical period of development has already taken place. That is the reason why they have enrich products such as bread and cereal with things like folic acid. (wouldn't that be analogous to your finding a prevention for smallpox?)
Can I ask your position on the issue, are you pro life or pro choice?
 
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blackribbon

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Do you think it's a problem if 95% of inhabitants of heaven never had a conscious thought in their lifetimes?

95% of all conceptions do not end in miscarriage. That simply isn't true. And how do you know they didn't have a conscious thought? The central nervous system is one of the first systems to develop...in the first 8 weeks before a woman usually even knows she is pregnant. Since a baby recognizes his father's voice at birth and will turn his head to find that voice and that baby looks at his mother (and not the nurse) with a look of pure adoration, I have a hard time believing that their first thought comes with their first breath of oxygen.
 
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ranunculus

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"the larger society" is an abstraction, it could mean anything. Real people do care about miscarriages. It's why people go to doctors when they are pregnant and take steps to try to minimize miscarriages, such as putting warnings on cigarettes and alcohol, and medications, for instance.
I'm arguing that, from the pro life point of view, a fetus is a person, correct?
So 4 million miscarriages a year would be the biggest public health crisis, correct?
But it doesn't seem to be treated as such.
 
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ranunculus

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95% of all conceptions do not end in miscarriage. That simply isn't true. And how do you know they didn't have a conscious thought? The central nervous system is one of the first systems to develop...in the first 8 weeks before a woman usually even knows she is pregnant. Since a baby recognizes his father's voice at birth and will turn his head to find that voice and that baby looks at his mother (and not the nurse) with a look of pure adoration, I have a hard time believing that their first thought comes with their first breath of oxygen.
Would it kill you to read through the thread before you hit reply?
Should trying to conceive a child be made illegal if personhood starts at conception?
 
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blackribbon

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Can I ask your position on the issue, are you pro life or pro choice?

Does it matter? I have said I believe that a human is fully human at conception. We are only discussing the differences of different developmental stages. A embryo is completely human and only human.

Do you find avoiding conception more natural that pursuing it? Do you favor eliminating sex or sterilization as the most natural option?
 
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blackribbon

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Would it kill you to read through the thread before you hit reply?
Should trying to conceive a child be made illegal if personhood starts at conception?

I have read every one of your threads all the way through...and they simply don't make sense. Personhood starts at conception. Yes. The fact that people die doesn't mean that we should stop making people. People dying is not the same as murdering them. Dying is as natural as conception. Just like we don't ban death, we shouldn't ban birth or conception.
 
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ranunculus

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Does it matter? I have said I believe that a human is fully human at conception. We are only discussing the differences of different developmental stages. A embryo is completely human and only human.

I also believe an embryo is human. But is it a person that has the same rights as you or me?
Do you find avoiding conception more natural that pursuing it? Do you favor eliminating sex or sterilization as the most natural option?

No because I don't regard an embryo or zygote or fetus as a person.
 
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ranunculus

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I have read every one of your threads all the way through...and they simply don't make sense. Personhood starts at conception. Yes. The fact that people die doesn't mean that we should stop making people. People dying is not the same as murdering them. Dying is as natural as conception. Just like we don't ban death, we shouldn't ban birth or conception.
In that case, you should realize that 50% of humans are never born and 90% or born humans aren't Christians or saved. Which means 95% of the heaven population never had a conscious thought in their lifetime. (assuming of course that children before the age of accountability go straight to heaven.)
 
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blackribbon

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I'm arguing that, from the pro life point of view, a fetus is a person, correct?
So 4 million miscarriages a year would be the biggest public health crisis, correct?
But it doesn't seem to be treated as such.

And it is considered a health concern...we try to get child bearing women to live healthy lifestyles, stop smoking, eat healthily, have healthy relationships, go for regular checkups.... But babies also die at birth of natural causes and shortly there after. We don't call it a health crisis but we do everything we can to minimize and prevent it....and you don't even have to be a pro-lifer to want to save babies who are born too early or with birth defects.
 
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ranunculus

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And it is considered a health concern...we try to get child bearing women to live healthy lifestyles, stop smoking, eat healthily, have healthy relationships, go for regular checkups.... But babies also die at birth of natural causes and shortly there after. We don't call it a health crisis but we do everything we can to minimize and prevent it....and you don't even have to be a pro-lifer to want to save babies who are born too early or with birth defects.

If someone was performing an action that in 50% of cases results in a human person's death, would you stop that someone from performing that action?
 
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blackribbon

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I also believe an embryo is human. But is it a person that has the same rights as you or me?


No because I don't regard an embryo or zygote or fetus as a person.

So what kind of "human" is it that it isn't a person. Are there other types of humans in other stages of development that are not people?

I am completely pro-life. Yes, I do believe in the rights of the embryo,fetus, neonate, infant, toddler, child, adolescent, adult, and elderly person. I believe that each is simply a different developmental stage of human life....and as babies who are being born prematurely keeps dropping and yet every single one of them either dies or grows into a fully human being going through the same stages as a baby who made it to 40 weeks gestation, I want to know what stage is a human not really a human and how you get to that conclusion. They are completely incredible beings...even at birth.
 
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Mary Meg

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I'm arguing that, from the pro life point of view, a fetus is a person, correct?
So 4 million miscarriages a year would be the biggest public health crisis, correct?
But it doesn't seem to be treated as such.

And you think your proposed response -- criminalizing pregnancy -- is an appropriate response?

As others have pointed out, there are many attempts being made to reduce the rate of miscarriage. As you have pointed out, some pregnancies just aren't viable. Do these things mean a "fetus" is anything less than a human person?

You keep talking about "responses", doing something about it, and all you want to do is hold someone culpable for deaths, by miscarriage, by smallpox, by cancer, etc. -- even to the point of holding God culpable ("jailing the designer of natural processes," I believe you said). You are attacking straw men. These are not arguments anybody makes. In most cases, when someone dies of natural causes, there is no one at all to blame -- as comforting as that would be. Death is a natural part of life. We are all going to die. We take reasonable precautions and preventative measures in the hopes that we can stem that ultimate fate off as long as possible for ourselves and our loved ones (and yes, this includes the lives of the unborn), but we're not ever going to prevent death. Just because we accept death as natural does not mean we think of those who die as less than human: in fact, accepting their death is part of accepting their humanity.

People have free will and human rights. Even if we wanted to, we can't deny people the right to procreate as they please -- and no one does want that, because if humans stopped procreating, the extinction of the human race would soon follow. And being pro-life, we are against that.
 
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blackribbon

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If someone was performing an action that in 50% of cases results in a human person's death, would you stop that someone from performing that action?

Again, where do you get your 50% figure from?

And I can tell you an action where 100% of all people will eventually do that leads to death and that is stopping breathing. Should we eliminate that too? I beg to differ with you in that I believe that 100% of all babies conceived die...just they die at different ages. Death is a natural part of life...it isn't something horrific on its own or something that any of us can avoid.
 
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ranunculus

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So what kind of "human" is it that it isn't a person. Are there other types of humans in other stages of development that are not people?
A hair follicle is human, it's not a person.
A corpse is human, it's no longer a person.
An embryo is human, it is not yet a person.

I am completely pro-life. Yes, I do believe in the rights of the embryo,fetus, neonate, infant, toddler, child, adolescent, adult, and elderly person. I believe that each is simply a different developmental stage of human life....and as babies who are being born prematurely keeps dropping and yet every single one of them either dies or grows into a fully human being going through the same stages as a baby who made it to 40 weeks gestation, I want to know what stage is a human not really a human and how you get to that conclusion. They are completely incredible beings...even at birth.
Thanks to medical science in the last 100 years the infant death rate has dropped from 500/1000, which it was at for hundreds of thousands of years, to about 1/1000. Thanks science!
 
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ranunculus

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Again, where do you get your 50% figure from?
Please try to keep up, it's in the OP.
Up to 50 percent of all fertilized eggs are lost before a woman's missed menses.
Conception: How It Works

Around half of all fertilized eggs die and are lost (aborted) spontaneously, usually before the woman knows she is pregnant.
Miscarriage: MedlinePlus Medical Encyclopedia

as many as 50% of all pregnancies end in miscarriage -- most often before a woman misses a menstrual period or even knows she is pregnant. About 15-25% of recognized pregnancies will end in a miscarriage.
http://www.webmd.com/baby/guide/pregnancy-miscarriage
And I can tell you an action where 100% of all people will eventually do that leads to death and that is stopping breathing. Should we eliminate that too? I beg to differ with you in that I believe that 100% of all babies conceived die...just they die at different ages. Death is a natural part of life...it isn't something horrific on its own or something that any of us can avoid.

You didn't answer my question. If someone was performing an action (that people consider as mundane) that in 50% of cases results in a human person's death, would you stop that someone from performing that action?
 
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blackribbon

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A hair follicle is human, it's not a person.
A corpse is human, it's no longer a person.
An embryo is human, it is not yet a person.


Thanks to medical science in the last 100 years the infant death rate has dropped from 500/1000, which it was at for hundreds of thousands of years, to about 1/1000. Thanks science!

A hair follicle is not a human...it is a human part. It does not have the ability to grow into a human being. A corpse is not human, it is the shell of what was a human. It no longer has all the parts it needs to be a human. The part that was human has left the shell. An embryo is complete and will grow into an adult human if it does not die before getting to that developmental stage.

At what stage of development do you give personhood to a human?
 
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