Should Secession be an option?

[Creech]

you are right this movement doesn't mean anything, and I never said it did. They aren't even doing it right. The proper procedure is to propose succession to your state legislature, not the white house.

I don't think these petitions are meant to actually DO something, but instead spreading a message. Because this topic has been greatly discussed on mainstream news and other media outlets, I would say the petitions have been a huge success.

 

[Illuminaughty]

What happened to the right wing refrain of "love or leave it"? I guess some of them chose the "leave it" option. People crying over the election to that extent is just sad. I hope the Republicans are really vocal in the support of this though. It will scare the normal people away from ever voting for them again.

 

[Panzerkamfwagen]

Secession was the key point that made us a nation in the first place. Simply reading the declaration of independence we have to by our nature honor the idea of succession if states feel called to it.

Succession in 1860 however was different. The only reason the south succeeded was for slavery. Some southerners will tell you it was for "states rights," but really what was the only right they were talking about? Only slavery which really opposed the views of the founding fathers, Jefferson wanted to make it illegal in the original draft of the constitution but he was talked out of it so they southern states would support he war, Jefferson understood slavery was a battle for another day. In the movie Gettysburg Robert E Lee says "we should have freed the slaves and then attacked Ft Sumter". If that was really how the south felt, and they did that, we'd be looking at the south a lot different. The Union certainly had it's faults as well, Lincoln originally avoided the slavery issue at all costs, and some suggest Lincoln used the slavery issue to hold control of the south and it wasn't really a priority to the Union at all. The North was no lest racist then the south. Robert E Lee and Jackson were very Godly men, but really I think The Union had a real case there because the South was not protecting the rights of all of it's inhabitants, if the south had just disagreed in ideology and how to run their states it would have been a different scenario.

If the Civil War was about slavery, then why did slave states fight on the federal side?

 

[Desk trauma]

I don't think these petitions are meant to actually DO something, but instead spreading a message. Because this topic has been greatly discussed on mainstream news and other media outlets, I would say the petitions have been a huge success.

I would not call being held in the spot light while the rest of the population points, laughs, shakes their heads or takes the time to explain just how screwed a state out on its own would be as anything resembling a success.

 

[Creech]

If the Civil War was about slavery, then why did slave states fight on the federal side?

Well many border states were forced to remain in the Union through excessive military force. The Civil War was about the states right to leave the Union, while I believe the secession itself was about slavery and self-determination for Southerners.

 

[jehoiakim]

In response...

If the civil war was about slavery why did salve states fight on the federal side?

pressure from the North, MD would have been a huge target since DC is on the boarder of MD and VA it would have been considered a necessity to hold. MD, KY, WV, MO, were all border states and were also considered a southern sympathizing states, my guess is they were trying to save their hide. The North had bigger armies, more supplies, more factories, more trains etc. I think they were putting their money on the North. Lincoln also declared martial law in MD and MO so they I don't know that they remained in the north willingly. Lincoln certainly wasn't and innocent as we like to make him out either. All that into consideration had I been around to witness it I don't think that I would have supported the union in the beginning until it was more clearly at least presented as a fight to end slavery, even if it was a calculated political maneuver and not genuine then I would have been more clearly on the side of the north.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

People crying over the election to that extent is just sad. I hope the Republicans are really vocal in the support of this though. It will scare the normal people away from ever voting for them again.

Many folks in Texas have wanted to break away for a while (long before the most recent election)

 

[Creech]

Many folks in Texas have wanted to break away for a while (long before the most recent election)

Very true. I know the Texas Nationalist Movement has been around for a very long time.

Texas Nationalist Movement - Texas First. Texas Forever.

 

[Illuminaughty]

Yeah, I remember the Republic of Texas group that tried printing their own money but the more widespread movement and the added support came about because of hatred of Obama and the election. Obama was apparently imposing Islamo-socialism and setting up FEMA death camps so the "patriots" need to succeed. It's not just a few tin foilers in Texas anymore either but the right wingers in a lot of states advocating the abolition of the union.

 

[MachZer0]

All over the United States, movements for states/regions to leave the Union have become increasingly popular. It seems like these movements are becoming more and more mainstream.

Rebel Yell: 700,000 Americans sign secession petitions to White House - YouTube

Not only are these movements gaining popularity in the South, but also right in the heart of New England.

Second Vermont Republic - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I was wondering what everyone thought about this issue.

An argumetn could be made that when the Republic no longer abides by it's Constitution, it's "contract" with the sovereign states becomes null and void making secession a clear option. Not only secession but dissolution of the union altogether

 

[TLK Valentine]

An argumetn could be made that when the Republic no longer abides by it's Constitution, it's "contract" with the sovereign states becomes null and void making secession a clear option. Not only secession but dissolution of the union altogether

Well then, fortunately we're nowhere near that point, so any such fears would be unfounded.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Yeah, I remember the Republic of Texas group that tried printing their own money but the more widespread movement and the added support came about because of hatred of Obama and the election.

The people of TX have a legitimate gripe. While it does pertain to the election, it's not strictly due to a hatred of Obama. They're being under-represented in terms of electoral votes...as are many of the conservative states for that matter.

Population of Texas (conservative): 27 million
Electoral Votes: 38
1.407 electoral votes per million people

Population of California (liberal): 37 million
Electoral Votes: 55
1.486 electoral votes per million people


I actually did a thread about it a while back showing the numerous other examples of how the electoral college system is currently slanted in the liberal favor.

I'd would be willing to venture a guess that if we switched to a popular vote, many of these folks that feel under-represented might change their tune.

 

[jayem]

Secession will never be more than a fantasy for a handful of true believers. It's a fringe position that appeals only to small minority. Rightly or wrongly, modern life for the vast majority of Americans is dependent on a functioning federal government. People who have worked their entire lives paying into SS, and Medicare, will not voluntarily relinquish these for some neo-antifederalist pipe dream. And there is no way in hell that seceding states could take over these obligations on their own.

Let's get real. We're stuck with each other, and we have to make the best of it.

 

[MachZer0]

Well then, fortunately we're nowhere near that point, so any such fears would be unfounded.

We passed that point long ago

 

[TLK Valentine]

We passed that point long ago

Only in your imagination.

 

[SnowCal]

An argumetn could be made that when the Republic no longer abides by it's Constitution, it's "contract" with the sovereign states becomes null and void making secession a clear option. Not only secession but dissolution of the union altogether

Are you making that argument Mach? Do you believe it? Are you a secessionist Mach?

 

[usexpat97]

I think if people are going to make claims about whether the U.S. abides/does not abide by its own Constitution, they need to back that up with facts a little more substantial than just "anyone who doesn't believe as I do has an active imagination". So I will start:

- The President can declare wars now.
- If the President is not a natural born citizen, it's no big deal.
- The Judicial branch's rulings are now suggestions which the Executive may or may not choose to follow.
- The "state militias" are nothing more than an extension of the Federal armed forces.
- Congress doesn't coin money. The Federal Reserve does.
- Habeas Corpus may be suspended for 48 hours without cause.
- The State of the Union is nothing more than a "Hey look at me, I'm such a great President, re-elect me".
- 92% of trials are no longer by jury.
- Homeland Security checkpoints flat out tell you that the Constitution is null and void there. Both at the border and all TSA checkpoints in USA airports, right in the middle of U.S. soil.
- Your exercise of Free Speech* anywhere in the United States or internationally can be used as cause for Homeland Security to single you out for "further examination", resulting in further abridgement (read: ignore) of the Constitution any time you fly or cross a checkpoint; thus suspending the Constitution anywhere--not just at checkpoints.
- The First Amendment grants free speech, but "there are limits to free speech"--such as, oh, talk of secession. Zachary Taylor and James Polk specifically said they would hang anyone who spoke of secession.
- The police have broken up assemblies and told the people to disperse on multiple occasions, all over the country.
- You have to get a "permit" to assemble in most cities, which they may refuse to give you.
- You have a Second Amendment right to bear arms--except in pretty much any public place, some municipalities, and the police can use pretext and intimidation to arrest you for possession of any weapons they might not like.
- The Fourth Amendment for all intents and purposes is just completely gone.
- "Speedy" trials as per the Sixth Amendment do not exist. If it were so, Zimmerman would not be in jail now. The "public defenders" granted by 6th Amendment do practically nothing to represent you, resulting in many innocent but poor people in prison today.
- The Ninth and Tenth Amendments for all practical purposes no longer exist.

So yeah--the U.S. does not abide by its own Constitution and is in breach of contract with its constituent states.

 

[nightflight]

Careful what you say here. I think a roundup of malcontents is imminent.

 

[MachZer0]

Careful what you say here. I think a roundup of malcontents is imminent.

It could happen. My bet is that some day it will happen. that's where America is trending and what makes it important to keep secession available as an option

 

[TLK Valentine]

I think if people are going to make claims about whether the U.S. abides/does not abide by its own Constitution, they need to back that up with facts a little more substantial than just "anyone who doesn't believe as I do has an active imagination". So I will start:

- The President can declare wars now.

Been doing that since Korea.

- If the President is not a natural born citizen, it's no big deal.

it's no big deal because the President is a natural born citizen.

- The Judicial branch's rulings are now suggestions which the Executive may or may not choose to follow.

That does sound bad -- got anything specific in mind?

- The "state militias" are nothing more than an extension of the Federal armed forces.

They've always been known as the "National Guard" for as long as I can remember.

- Congress doesn't coin money. The Federal Reserve does.

It's been saying that on our money for the last half century -- no point getting in a twist over it now.

- Habeas Corpus may be suspended for 48 hours without cause.

Down from "indefinitely." Agreeably shameful, but at least a step in the right direction -- or at least a step away from a direction we never should've gone down in the first place.

- The State of the Union is nothing more than a "Hey look at me, I'm such a great President, re-elect me".

Politicians pander -- this is cause for secession?

- 92% of trials are no longer by jury.

Source?

- Homeland Security checkpoints flat out tell you that the Constitution is null and void there. Both at the border and all TSA checkpoints in USA airports, right in the middle of U.S. soil.

Definitely an issue; but without the others to support it, not really a civil-war-worthy issue.

- Your exercise of Free Speech* anywhere in the United States or internationally can be used as cause for Homeland Security to single you out for "further examination", resulting in further abridgement (read: ignore) of the Constitution any time you fly or cross a checkpoint; thus suspending the Constitution anywhere--not just at checkpoints.

I was never a big fan of the "Free Speech" zones myself, either -- we all should've seen the potential for abuse.

Incidentally, got any specific examples in mind?

- The First Amendment grants free speech, but "there are limits to free speech"--such as, oh, talk of secession. Zachary Taylor and James Polk specifically said they would hang anyone who spoke of secession.

So this is hardly anything new -- why get in a twist about it now?

- The police have broken up assemblies and told the people to disperse on multiple occasions, all over the country.

No surprise there -- not even the First Amendment is absolute; never has been. Police can break up assemblies for any one of a dozen reasons which trump the 1st A -- public safety being near the top of the list.

- You have to get a "permit" to assemble in most cities, which they may refuse to give you.

Again, nothing unjust about that on its face -- the only problem occurs if it becomes abundantly clear that "they" are arbitrarily and unfairly refusing such permits.

- You have a Second Amendment right to bear arms--except in pretty much any public place, some municipalities, and the police can use pretext and intimidation to arrest you for possession of any weapons they might not like.

The 1st Amendment is not absolute; did you think the 2nd would be?

- The Fourth Amendment for all intents and purposes is just completely gone.

hyperbole much?

- "Speedy" trials as per the Sixth Amendment do not exist. If it were so, Zimmerman would not be in jail now.

Or... he'd be serving his 20 to life already.

The "public defenders" granted by 6th Amendment do practically nothing to represent you, resulting in many innocent but poor people in prison today.

Sounds more like an issue of competence than Constitutionality. I'm sure those who can afford their own lawyers are doing just fine.

- The Ninth and Tenth Amendments for all practical purposes no longer exist.

There have been a couple of questionable SCOTUS decisions along those lines, which have argued that the 14th Amendment supercedes the 9th and 10th.

Kind of makes you wish the Executive branch would simply "choose not to follow" such rulings, eh?

So yeah--the U.S. does not abide by its own Constitution and is in breach of contract with its constituent states.

Happy trails, then. The rest of us will work on fixing things.