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Should Secession be an option?

Discussion in 'American Politics' started by Creech, Dec 9, 2012.

  1. Creech

    Creech Senior Veteran

    +204
    Methodist
    I don't think these petitions are meant to actually DO something, but instead spreading a message. Because this topic has been greatly discussed on mainstream news and other media outlets, I would say the petitions have been a huge success.
     
  2. Illuminaughty

    Illuminaughty Drift and Doubt

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    What happened to the right wing refrain of "love or leave it"? I guess some of them chose the "leave it" option. People crying over the election to that extent is just sad. I hope the Republicans are really vocal in the support of this though. It will scare the normal people away from ever voting for them again.
     
  3. Panzerkamfwagen

    Panzerkamfwagen Es braust unser Panzer im Sturmwind dahin.

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    If the Civil War was about slavery, then why did slave states fight on the federal side?
     
  4. Desk trauma

    Desk trauma Atheist Capitalist Supporter

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    I would not call being held in the spot light while the rest of the population points, laughs, shakes their heads or takes the time to explain just how screwed a state out on its own would be as anything resembling a success.
     
  5. Creech

    Creech Senior Veteran

    +204
    Methodist
    Well many border states were forced to remain in the Union through excessive military force. The Civil War was about the states right to leave the Union, while I believe the secession itself was about slavery and self-determination for Southerners.
     
  6. jehoiakim

    jehoiakim Servant

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    In response...

    If the civil war was about slavery why did salve states fight on the federal side?

    pressure from the North, MD would have been a huge target since DC is on the boarder of MD and VA it would have been considered a necessity to hold. MD, KY, WV, MO, were all border states and were also considered a southern sympathizing states, my guess is they were trying to save their hide. The North had bigger armies, more supplies, more factories, more trains etc. I think they were putting their money on the North. Lincoln also declared martial law in MD and MO so they I don't know that they remained in the north willingly. Lincoln certainly wasn't and innocent as we like to make him out either. All that into consideration had I been around to witness it I don't think that I would have supported the union in the beginning until it was more clearly at least presented as a fight to end slavery, even if it was a calculated political maneuver and not genuine then I would have been more clearly on the side of the north.
     
  7. ThatRobGuy

    ThatRobGuy The artist formerly known as miniverchivi Supporter

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    Many folks in Texas have wanted to break away for a while (long before the most recent election)
     
  8. Creech

    Creech Senior Veteran

    +204
    Methodist
  9. Illuminaughty

    Illuminaughty Drift and Doubt

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    Yeah, I remember the Republic of Texas group that tried printing their own money but the more widespread movement and the added support came about because of hatred of Obama and the election. Obama was apparently imposing Islamo-socialism and setting up FEMA death camps so the "patriots" need to succeed. It's not just a few tin foilers in Texas anymore either but the right wingers in a lot of states advocating the abolition of the union.
     
  10. MachZer0

    MachZer0 Caught Between Barack and a Hard Place

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    An argumetn could be made that when the Republic no longer abides by it's Constitution, it's "contract" with the sovereign states becomes null and void making secession a clear option. Not only secession but dissolution of the union altogether
     
  11. TLK Valentine

    TLK Valentine You will be who you will be. We are our choices.

    +7,016
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    Well then, fortunately we're nowhere near that point, so any such fears would be unfounded.
     
  12. ThatRobGuy

    ThatRobGuy The artist formerly known as miniverchivi Supporter

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    The people of TX have a legitimate gripe. While it does pertain to the election, it's not strictly due to a hatred of Obama. They're being under-represented in terms of electoral votes...as are many of the conservative states for that matter.

    Population of Texas (conservative): 27 million
    Electoral Votes: 38
    1.407 electoral votes per million people

    Population of California (liberal): 37 million
    Electoral Votes: 55
    1.486 electoral votes per million people


    I actually did a thread about it a while back showing the numerous other examples of how the electoral college system is currently slanted in the liberal favor.

    I'd would be willing to venture a guess that if we switched to a popular vote, many of these folks that feel under-represented might change their tune.
     
  13. jayem

    jayem Naturalist

    +1,654
    Married
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    Secession will never be more than a fantasy for a handful of true believers. It's a fringe position that appeals only to small minority. Rightly or wrongly, modern life for the vast majority of Americans is dependent on a functioning federal government. People who have worked their entire lives paying into SS, and Medicare, will not voluntarily relinquish these for some neo-antifederalist pipe dream. And there is no way in hell that seceding states could take over these obligations on their own.

    Let's get real. We're stuck with each other, and we have to make the best of it.
     
  14. MachZer0

    MachZer0 Caught Between Barack and a Hard Place

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    We passed that point long ago
     
  15. TLK Valentine

    TLK Valentine You will be who you will be. We are our choices.

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    Only in your imagination.
     
  16. SnowCal

    SnowCal 50 Cent Party

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    Are you making that argument Mach? Do you believe it? Are you a secessionist Mach?
     
  17. usexpat97

    usexpat97 kewlness

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    Presbyterian
    I think if people are going to make claims about whether the U.S. abides/does not abide by its own Constitution, they need to back that up with facts a little more substantial than just "anyone who doesn't believe as I do has an active imagination". So I will start:

    - The President can declare wars now.
    - If the President is not a natural born citizen, it's no big deal.
    - The Judicial branch's rulings are now suggestions which the Executive may or may not choose to follow.
    - The "state militias" are nothing more than an extension of the Federal armed forces.
    - Congress doesn't coin money. The Federal Reserve does.
    - Habeas Corpus may be suspended for 48 hours without cause.
    - The State of the Union is nothing more than a "Hey look at me, I'm such a great President, re-elect me".
    - 92% of trials are no longer by jury.
    - Homeland Security checkpoints flat out tell you that the Constitution is null and void there. Both at the border and all TSA checkpoints in USA airports, right in the middle of U.S. soil.
    - Your exercise of Free Speech* anywhere in the United States or internationally can be used as cause for Homeland Security to single you out for "further examination", resulting in further abridgement (read: ignore) of the Constitution any time you fly or cross a checkpoint; thus suspending the Constitution anywhere--not just at checkpoints.
    - The First Amendment grants free speech, but "there are limits to free speech"--such as, oh, talk of secession. Zachary Taylor and James Polk specifically said they would hang anyone who spoke of secession.
    - The police have broken up assemblies and told the people to disperse on multiple occasions, all over the country.
    - You have to get a "permit" to assemble in most cities, which they may refuse to give you.
    - You have a Second Amendment right to bear arms--except in pretty much any public place, some municipalities, and the police can use pretext and intimidation to arrest you for possession of any weapons they might not like.
    - The Fourth Amendment for all intents and purposes is just completely gone.
    - "Speedy" trials as per the Sixth Amendment do not exist. If it were so, Zimmerman would not be in jail now. The "public defenders" granted by 6th Amendment do practically nothing to represent you, resulting in many innocent but poor people in prison today.
    - The Ninth and Tenth Amendments for all practical purposes no longer exist.

    So yeah--the U.S. does not abide by its own Constitution and is in breach of contract with its constituent states.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2012
  18. nightflight

    nightflight Veteran

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    Careful what you say here. I think a roundup of malcontents is imminent.
     
  19. MachZer0

    MachZer0 Caught Between Barack and a Hard Place

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    It could happen. My bet is that some day it will happen. that's where America is trending and what makes it important to keep secession available as an option
     
  20. TLK Valentine

    TLK Valentine You will be who you will be. We are our choices.

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    Been doing that since Korea.

    it's no big deal because the President is a natural born citizen.

    That does sound bad -- got anything specific in mind?

    They've always been known as the "National Guard" for as long as I can remember.

    It's been saying that on our money for the last half century -- no point getting in a twist over it now.

    Down from "indefinitely." Agreeably shameful, but at least a step in the right direction -- or at least a step away from a direction we never should've gone down in the first place.

    Politicians pander -- this is cause for secession?

    Source?

    Definitely an issue; but without the others to support it, not really a civil-war-worthy issue.

    I was never a big fan of the "Free Speech" zones myself, either -- we all should've seen the potential for abuse.

    Incidentally, got any specific examples in mind?

    So this is hardly anything new -- why get in a twist about it now?

    No surprise there -- not even the First Amendment is absolute; never has been. Police can break up assemblies for any one of a dozen reasons which trump the 1st A -- public safety being near the top of the list.

    Again, nothing unjust about that on its face -- the only problem occurs if it becomes abundantly clear that "they" are arbitrarily and unfairly refusing such permits.

    The 1st Amendment is not absolute; did you think the 2nd would be?

    hyperbole much?

    Or... he'd be serving his 20 to life already.

    Sounds more like an issue of competence than Constitutionality. I'm sure those who can afford their own lawyers are doing just fine.

    There have been a couple of questionable SCOTUS decisions along those lines, which have argued that the 14th Amendment supercedes the 9th and 10th.

    Kind of makes you wish the Executive branch would simply "choose not to follow" such rulings, eh?

    Happy trails, then. The rest of us will work on fixing things.