Should Psalms be used to support theological doctrine?

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

I first want to say that I believe Psalms to be divine scripture. It seems as though that all the books in the Bible is God communicating to humanity either through prophets, apostles, or Jesus. However, Psalms is different. It is the only book where the communication is solely from humanity towards God. Psalms are basically a collection of Hymns and prayers from humans that are directed to God and a valuable because it helps us to better understand how we can better communicate and worship God.

I have found numerous examples where people reference Psalms to justify their theological positions. However, because of the unique genre and purpose of Psalms, is it acceptable to do so? If so, how do we then reconcile Psalms like psalm 137:9?

Happy is the one who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.

Psalm 137:9 NIV

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

2 Tim. 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Of course people with evil intent ruled by satan will always twist scripture to justify their evil desires. Remember satan used scripture( which he perverted) in his attempt to seduce Lord Jesus in the wilderness.

 

[inquiring mind]

I first want to say that I believe Psalms to be divine scripture. It seems as though that all the books in the Bible is God communicating to humanity either through prophets, apostles, or Jesus. However, Psalms is different. It is the only book where the communication is solely from humanity towards God. Psalms are basically a collection of Hymns and prayers from humans that are directed to God and a valuable because it helps us to better understand how we can better communicate and worship God.

I have found numerous examples where people reference Psalms to justify their theological positions. However, because of the unique genre and purpose of Psalms, is it acceptable to do so? If so, how do we then reconcile Psalms like psalm 137:9?

Happy is the one who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.

Psalm 137:9 NIV

According to my Bible Commentary, Israel’s enemies place themselves under divine justice from God. The brutality of the statement is meant to be shocking, like the total destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. As such, not meaning a cruel nature of God, but His perfect holiness and justice carried out to finality. Many theologians believe it doesn’t mean little ones in a literal sense, but the descendants of Babylon as a whole. But, I agree that some OT verbage is difficult to understand from a NT perspective.

 

[All4Christ]

I first want to say that I believe Psalms to be divine scripture. It seems as though that all the books in the Bible is God communicating to humanity either through prophets, apostles, or Jesus. However, Psalms is different. It is the only book where the communication is solely from humanity towards God. Psalms are basically a collection of Hymns and prayers from humans that are directed to God and a valuable because it helps us to better understand how we can better communicate and worship God.

I have found numerous examples where people reference Psalms to justify their theological positions. However, because of the unique genre and purpose of Psalms, is it acceptable to do so? If so, how do we then reconcile Psalms like psalm 137:9?

Happy is the one who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.

Psalm 137:9 NIV

Scripture is full of metaphors. We sing that Psalm in church. I remember the first time hearing it...I was thinking....ummmm....what??? Lol. I didn’t understand why we would sing that. Then I realized what the Scripture is saying.

In the Orthodox Tradition - and I believe this is the same with many traditional churches, we view everything from a Christological lens. With that in mind, one of our teachers, St Theodoros, taught that even thinking about a sin is the start of the passions. We need to get rid of it immediately...dash it against the rocks before it can get root in our lives. You can also read something similar from St Paul in Phil 4:8.

Here is the quote from St Theodoros:

Every assent in thought to some forbidden desire, that is, every submission to self-indulgence, is a sin[...]. For at first, the thought begins to darken the nous [Greek meaning the eye of the spirit] …then the soul submits to the pleasure, not holding out in the fight. This is what is called assent…When assent persists it stimulates the passion in question. Then, little by little, it leads to the actual committing of the sin. This is why the prophet calls blessed those who dash the children of Babylon against the stones. People with understanding and discretion will know what is meant.”

That Psalm was sung while Israel was in exile - in captivity in Babylon. The Church - the Christian community today - prays this as being in exile in this world.

This is an interesting post explaining some difficult Psalms: Difficulties in the Psalms

All of Scripture is profitable and beneficial. That said, the Old Testament (across the board) should be interpreted in the light of Christ.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

According to my Bible Commentary, Israel’s enemies place themselves under divine justice from God. The brutality of the statement is meant to be shocking, like the total destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. As such, not meaning a cruel nature of God, but His perfect holiness and justice carried out to finality. Many theologians believe it doesn’t mean little ones in a literal sense, but the descendants of Babylon as a whole. But, I agree that some OT verbage is difficult to understand from a NT perspective.

That is an interesting point of view. From my understanding, Psalm 137 is an imprecatory psalm where the psalmest is showing his anger and frustration towards God...but not at God. We can learn from imprecatory psalms that is is ok to tell God how angry you are. It's ok to tell God how much you wish he would destroy your enemies. It's also ok to tell God how frustrated you are that He doesn't just wipe them out. I have concluded that psalms should not be used to establish doctrine. Rather, it should be used to affirm doctrine.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Yet when James and John asked Jesus if they should call down fire out of heaven to destroy the people who rejected them, Jesus rebuked them saying, "You don't know what kind of spirit you are of."

We shouldn't be quick to ask God to destroy our enemies. Jesus is a much better indicator of God's heart, and what He wants for us, than the writers of various Psalms.

Not that the Psalms aren't good - they are. But everything needs to be understood through Christ. If Christ rebuked a spirit that would asks such things, we are safer to follow His example.

What All4Christ said - there is great wisdom in the words if we consider "enemies" to be of THE enemy - such as temptations and sin. Psalms is after all a book of poetry in a way. Metaphors make perfect sense in that case.

 

[gordonhooker]

Yet when James and John asked Jesus if they should call down fire out of heaven to destroy the people who rejected them, Jesus rebuked them saying, "You don't know what kind of spirit you are of."

We shouldn't be quick to ask God to destroy our enemies. Jesus is a much better indicator of God's heart, and what He wants for us, than the writers of various Psalms.

Not that the Psalms aren't good - they are. But everything needs to be understood through Christ. If Christ rebuked a spirit that would asks such things, we are safer to follow His example.

What All4Christ said - there is great wisdom in the words if we consider "enemies" to be of THE enemy - such as temptations and sin. Psalms is after all a book of poetry in a way. Metaphors make perfect sense in that case.

Not sure I agree with your statement "Not that the Psalms aren't good - they are. But everything needs to be understood through Christ." - if we are talking about things Christian then yes I agree, but the Jewish scripture is also about those to whom it was originally intended. So, in my opinion, it is far better to talk to God through prayer and the Psalms (prayers, poetry and song) to get things off ones chest than to bury it deep inside. After all that is the purpose of the imprecatory and laments were all about. Should we use them to determine doctrine? No but as Jason says they can be used to affirm doctrine.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Not sure I agree with your statement "Not that the Psalms aren't good - they are. But everything needs to be understood through Christ." - if we are talking about things Christian then yes I agree, but the Jewish scripture is also about those to whom it was originally intended. So, in my opinion, it is far better to talk to God through prayer and the Psalms (prayers, poetry and song) to get things off ones chest than to bury it deep inside. After all that is the purpose of the imprecatory and laments were all about. Should we use them to determine doctrine? No but as Jason says they can be used to affirm doctrine.

I agree that it's fine to be honest with God about how we feel. No reason to try to pretend, He knows better than we do. I'm not saying that.

But (and you may disagree) ... I don't think it's ok to ask God to "rain down fire on someone who has offended us". In our fallen human hearts, we may feel that way. And God understands that. But I would say we should not ask God to do this, because of the spirit we allow to show forth that we are speaking in. In all things we hope to be transformed into the likeness of Christ. We do not have to give free rein to every passion that enflames our hearts, and we should not, if we hope to allow the grace of God to work in us.

And yes, the OT are the Jewish Scriptures. But we have received the full revelation of God incarnate in the Person of Jesus Christ. This is why we should read all of the Scriptures through the lens of the Gospels. A much more coherent understanding of God can result. Christ said "if you have seen Me, you have seen the Father."

 

[All4Christ]

Not sure I agree with your statement "Not that the Psalms aren't good - they are. But everything needs to be understood through Christ." - if we are talking about things Christian then yes I agree, but the Jewish scripture is also about those to whom it was originally intended. So, in my opinion, it is far better to talk to God through prayer and the Psalms (prayers, poetry and song) to get things off ones chest than to bury it deep inside. After all that is the purpose of the imprecatory and laments were all about. Should we use them to determine doctrine? No but as Jason says they can be used to affirm doctrine.

Yes, Jewish Scripture is about those who it was originally intended for, but it also has been revealed to us again through the person of Christ. I believe there are often multiple layers of meaning in Scripture. The most apparent meaning is the meaning for those it was originally intended for, but we still can benefit from it. Prescriptive Scripture in the OT, for example, needs to be understood in the light of Christ for us as Christians, rather than a straightforward command directly to us. Everything we do is understood in the light of Christ.

 

[inquiring mind]

I first want to say that I believe Psalms to be divine scripture. It seems as though that all the books in the Bible is God communicating to humanity either through prophets, apostles, or Jesus. However, Psalms is different. It is the only book where the communication is solely from humanity towards God. Psalms are basically a collection of Hymns and prayers from humans that are directed to God and a valuable because it helps us to better understand how we can better communicate and worship God.

I have found numerous examples where people reference Psalms to justify their theological positions. However, because of the unique genre and purpose of Psalms, is it acceptable to do so? If so, how do we then reconcile Psalms like psalm 137:9?

Happy is the one who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.

Psalm 137:9 NIV

Guess which OT Book Jesus quoted most often?
Which Old Testament Book Did Jesus Quote Most Often? » Reasons for Hope* Jesus

 

[gordonhooker]

Yes, Jewish Scripture is about those who it was originally intended for, but it also has been revealed to us again through the person of Christ. I believe there are often multiple layers of meaning in Scripture. The most apparent meaning is the meaning for those it was originally intended for, but we still can benefit from it. Prescriptive Scripture in the OT, for example, needs to be understood in the light of Christ for us as Christians, rather than a straightforward command directly to us. Everything we do is understood in the light of Christ.

Thanks - I actually thought that is what I said.

 

[gordonhooker]

I agree that it's fine to be honest with God about how we feel. No reason to try to pretend, He knows better than we do. I'm not saying that.

But (and you may disagree) ... I don't think it's ok to ask God to "rain down fire on someone who has offended us". In our fallen human hearts, we may feel that way. And God understands that. But I would say we should not ask God to do this, because of the spirit we allow to show forth that we are speaking in. In all things we hope to be transformed into the likeness of Christ. We do not have to give free rein to every passion that enflames our hearts, and we should not, if we hope to allow the grace of God to work in us.

And yes, the OT are the Jewish Scriptures. But we have received the full revelation of God incarnate in the Person of Jesus Christ. This is why we should read all of the Scriptures through the lens of the Gospels. A much more coherent understanding of God can result. Christ said "if you have seen Me, you have seen the Father."

Thanks - One point though I do not believe I implied that it was ok to ask God to rain down fire on someone, what I said is that those of that time believed it was ok to ask God to do those types of things, hence getting it off their chest.

As a Franciscan Tertiary part of our rule is that we have a spiritual director and we make use of the sacrament of Reconciliation... It is in those times that I get off my chest those things that keep me from a focus on God.

 

[gordonhooker]

Guess which OT Book Jesus quoted most often?
Which Old Testament Book Did Jesus Quote Most Often? » Reasons for Hope* Jesus

Given the Psalms were the prayers and hymns of the Jewish people I would assume that Jesus would quote the book of Psalms often - that doesn't mean that they should necessarily be used to determine Christian doctrine.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Thanks - One point though I do not believe I implied that it was ok to ask God to rain down fire on someone, what I said is that those of that time believed it was ok to ask God to do those types of things, hence getting it off their chest.

As a Franciscan Tertiary part of our rule is that we have a spiritual director and we make use of the sacrament of Reconciliation... It is in those times that I get off my chest those things that keep me from a focus on God.

Ah, Apologies for any misunderstanding. Please forgive me.

 

[inquiring mind]

Given the Psalms were the prayers and hymns of the Jewish people I would assume that Jesus would quote the book of Psalms often - that doesn't mean that they should necessarily be used to determine Christian doctrine.

And yet, Jesus Christ is Christian doctrine in its purest form, and He is the greatest teacher of all time. Why would He quote from Psalms the most when rebuking those who questioned His authority, if they carry no weight in determining Christian doctrine?

 

[gordonhooker]

And yet, Jesus Christ is Christian doctrine in its purest form, and He is the greatest teacher of all time. Why would He quote from Psalms the most when rebuking those who questioned His authority, if they carry no weight in determining Christian doctrine?

Because he was a Jew.

 

[Doug Melven]

I have found numerous examples where people reference Psalms to justify their theological positions. However, because of the unique genre and purpose of Psalms, is it acceptable to do so? If so, how do we then reconcile Psalms like psalm 137:9?

Psalms is quoted many times in the NT. As seen by an earlier post Jesus quoted Psalms more than any other book.
2:1, 2 Acts 4:25, 26
2:7 Acts 13:33; Hebrews 1:5 ; 5:5
2:8, 9 Revelation 2:26, 27; 12:5; 19:15
4:4 Ephesians 4:26
5:9 Romans 3:13
6:3a John 12:27
6:8 Matthew 7:23; Luke 13:27
8:2 Matthew 21:16
8:4-6 Hebrews 2:6-8
8:6 1 Corinthians 15:27; Ephesians 1:22
10:7 Romans 3:14
14:1c, 2b, 3 Romans 3:10-12
16:8.-11 Acts 2:25-28
16:10b Acts 13:35
18:2b Hebrews 2:13
18:49 Romans 15:9
19:4 Romans 10:18
22:1 Matthew 27:46; Mark 15:34
22:7 Matthew 27:39; Mark 15:29; Luke 23:35
22:8 Matthew 27:43
22:18 John 19:24; compare Matthew 27:35; Mark 15:24; Luke 23:34
22:22 Hebrews 2:12
24:1 1 Corinthians 10:26 [28]
31:5a Luke 23:46
32:1, 2 Romans 4:7, 8
34:8 1 Peter 2:3
34:12-16 1 Peter 3:10-12
34:20 John 19:36
35:19b John 15:25
36:1b Romans 3:18
37:11a Matthew 5:5
38:11 Luke 23:49
40:6-8 Hebrews 10:5-7
41:9 John 13:18
41:13 Luke 1:68
42:5 Matthew 26:38; Mark 14:34
44:22 Romans 8:36
45:6, 7 Hebrews 1:8, 9
48:2 Matthew 5:35
51:4 Romans 3:4
53:1-3 Romans 3:10-12
55:22 1 Peter 5:7
62:12 Matthew 16:27; Romans 2:6
68:18 Ephesians 4:8
69:4 John 15:25
69:9a John 2:17
69:9b Romans 15:3
69:21 Matthew 27:34, 48; Mark 15:36; Luke 23:36; John 19:28, 29
69:22, 23 Romans 11:9, 10
69:25 Acts 1:20
72:18 Luke 1:68
78:2 Matthew 13:35
78:24 John 6:31
82:6 John 10:34
86:9 Revelation 15:4
88:8 Luke 23:49
89:10 Luke 1:51
89:20 Acts 13:22
90:4 2 Peter 3:8
91:11, 12 Matthew 4:6; Luke 4:10, 11
91:13 Luke 10:19
94:11 1 Corinthians 3:20
94:14 Romans 11:1, 2
95:7-11 Hebrews 3:7-11, 15, 18; 4:1, 3, 5, 7
97:7 Hebrews 1:6
98:3 Luke 1:54
102:25-27 Hebrews 1:10-12
103:17 Luke 1:50
104:4 Hebrews 1:7
105:8, 9 Luke 1:72, 73
106:10 Luke 1:71
106:45 Luke 1:72
106:48 Luke 1:68
107:9 Luke 1:53
109:8 Acts 1:20
109:25 Matthew 27:39
110:1 Matthew 22:44; Mark 12:36; Luke 20:42, 43; Acts 2:34, 35; Hebrews 1:13. Compare. Matthew 26:64; Mark 14:62; 16:19; Luke 22:69; 1 Corinthians 15:25; Ephesians 1:20; Colossians 3:1; Hebrews 1:3; 8:1; 10:12, 13; 12:2; 1 Peter 3:22
110:4 Hebrews 5:6; 6:20; 7:17, 21
111:9a Luke 1:68
111:9c Luke 1:49
112:9 2 Corinthians 9:9
116:10 2 Corinthians 4:13
117:1 Romans 15:11
118:6 Hebrews 13:6
118:22, 23 Matthew 21:42; Mark 12:10, 11; Luke 20:17; Acts 4:11; 1 Peter 2:4, 7
118:25, 26 Matthew 21:9; 23:39; Mark 11:9; Luke 13:35; 19:38; John 12:13
132:5 Acts 7:46
132:11 Acts 2:30
132:17 Luke 1:69
135:14a Hebrews 10:30
140:3b Romans 3:13
143:2b Romans 3:20
146:6 Acts 4:24; 14:15

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

PSALMS, like TORAH, like the NEW TESTAMENT , is TRUTH.
No need to reconcile anything -
ALL YHVH'S WORD is TRUTH.

Men mess up all the time, of course.... so don't accept what any man says contrary to any Scripture.

Seek YHVH in all things , everything, every day, all the time, for His Kingdom, and for His Understanding, without which no one understands.

 

[mmksparbud]

BY NOT TAKING ANY ONE VERSE OUT OF CONTEXT!!!

Psa 137:4 How shall we sing the LORD'S song in a strange land?
Psa 137:5 If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand forget her cunning.
Psa 137:6 If I do not remember thee, let my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth; if I prefer not Jerusalem above my chief joy.
Psa 137:7 Remember, O LORD, the children of Edom in the day of Jerusalem; who said, Rase it, rase it, even to the foundation thereof.
Psa 137:8 O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us.
Psa 137:9 Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

This was a lament over being driven out of their land and into captivity. It would be better to have their children die than go into captivity is what it is basically saying.

 

[All4Christ]

BY NOT TAKING ANY ONE VERSE OUT OF CONTEXT!!!

Psa 137:4 How shall we sing the LORD'S song in a strange land?
Psa 137:5 If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand forget her cunning.
Psa 137:6 If I do not remember thee, let my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth; if I prefer not Jerusalem above my chief joy.
Psa 137:7 Remember, O LORD, the children of Edom in the day of Jerusalem; who said, Rase it, rase it, even to the foundation thereof.
Psa 137:8 O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us.
Psa 137:9 Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

This was a lament over being driven out of their land and into captivity. It would be better to have their children die than go into captivity is what it is basically saying.

Context wise, it is apparent that the psalmist is talking about children of the “daughter of Babylon”, not the children of Israel. The previous verse is addressed to the daughter of Babylon. The structure and subject of the sentence appears to be the same between verse 8 and 9.