Should I make amends for pre-conversion sins??

[AndrasGregorik]

Hi all,
this question torments me for days especially since I've bumped into a site (biblicalcounseling.com/guilt) that says sin restitution is obligatory. So: does Jesus require that a believer should make amends (restitute) for his/her pre-conversion sins (lies, shoplifting, quarrels etc.) and thus confront the person(s) involved even if otherwise they have nothing to do with each other anymore?

The site I mentioned says radical things, including that restitution is a must even if the relationship with the offended grew harmonious by now. And that each and every old sin should be named specifically when meeting the offended.

PLEASE share your views with me on this one as I'm quite desperate (these are not theoretical but quite practical and pressing questions to me.)

Should one make amends for one's pre-conversion sins?
Even if the relationship grew harmonious by now?
And should one name each sin specifically to the offended?


God bless y'all, Andras (new member here)




(Already posted this on 'New Christians' but I think it belongs on this thread.)

 

[GadFly]

If you took my mule without asking and God forgives you for this sin, I think you should return the mule, especially if I see you riding it. Don't tell me since God forgave you that the mule is now yours to keep. You must use common sense. Some things can not be returned or taken back, although I can't think of any at the present time.

 

[AndrasGregorik]

Thanks, but I didn't mean just stealing things, but less overt sins; what about lies or calling someone names (maybe long before my Chr. conversion)? Should one confess his pre-conversion lies to the offended -- long after his conversion?

 

[GadFly]

Thanks, but I didn't mean just stealing things, but less overt sins; what about lies or calling someone names (maybe long before my Chr. conversion)? Should one confess his pre-conversion lies to the offended -- long after his conversion?

No! Forget the past. The way you now live and testify will demonstrate that you are sorry for the past. If it is a great big lie that really caused harm to another, like false witness in court, that is a different matter. But you do not need to make everything in your past life before Christ a confession to men. There are things that you confess to God that people do not need to know about. For most of us, it would take a life time to confess openly our pre conversion sins. Look at Paul's pre conversion sins. He had no way of confessing all the evil he did but word did get around that he had changed and was no longer practicing evil against the church.

 

[bliz]

When you go and apologize, you have a wonderful opportunity to be a witness for the Lord. You have an opportunity to change someone's opinion of you. You are taking advantage of a chance to do the right thing.

 

[AndrasGregorik]

Thanks for both replies. My main problem seems to be telling apart particular urges for pre-conversion restitution: are they coming from the Accuser or the Spirit? If there would be a Scriptural 'blanket solution' for this issue, stating that YES, you need to make amends for all long past sins; or NO, works are unnecessary and pagan; then my conscience could rest this way or another.

 

[Elijah2]

Well mate, the best way is to get a piece of paper, and a pen in your writing hand and say this prayer.

Heavenly Father, I come to you through our Lord Jesus Christ and I ask You, Lord to bring to mind all my past sins that affected other people, and the names of the people, in Jesus' Name.

Then as the names comes to start writing, without questioning the names. Possibly your parents and siblings will come to mind.

Then you restitute your sins by prayer of confession and repentance, and ask for forgivenes from our Lord.

Now if there needs to be reconciliation, then reconcile.

I can assure you that if you do that, then the enemy won't have anything on you to make you feel guilt and shame.

Be blessed in Jesus' Name.

 

[Minty]

Some very good advice there, Andras, ultimately you will just 'know' what you need to do. If you pray for guidance then He will give it to you.

Of course you should ask forgiveness for the things that you have said and done in the past, but if there is nothing that you can do now, or it will reopen old wounds, then I say just let the past be the past, ask for forgiveness and move on.

If you have truthfully asked for forgiveness, then you are forgiven and you owe it to God and to yourself to learn from past mistakes and try and not repeat them. Even if you do, though (as we are all sinners and fall far short of Godly perfection) as long as you genuinely seek forgiveness by repenting of your sins, you will get it.

I see the bible as instruction for my Christian life now, it had nothing to do with my life before Christ came into it. I was a pagan before I found Christ and as such had a lot to ask forgiveness for. I asked and I was answered and forgiven. As have you been. If there is something recently that you feel you need personal forgiveness for, then you will know in your heart what you must do, but for the more distant past, accept God's forgiveness and mercy.

Let His glory shine in you for all to see that you are now a different person.

May God richly bless you.

 

[AndrasGregorik]

Thank you deeply for all your replies, Gadfly, Bliz, Elijah2 and MintyAngel. There seems to be some Scriptural support of the idea that we need to make amends even for people we haven't met since our conversion. And this is what pains my conscience (either that or Satan). One is Matthew 5:23-24:
"Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift."

The other is the conversion of Zacchaeus in Luke 19:8:
"But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, "Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount."

But I'm not sure if these imply even minor (pre-conversion) sins like white lies -- the memories of which sometimes come to mind.
Did you guys in particular make amends?


(Also posted the likeness of this post in 'New Christians' as a different set of members seem to frequent that thread.)

 

[ForHisGlory2008]

I think you can be too particular. I always read the Matthew scripture as referring to unforgiveness towards someone or current squabbles. I see it as something dealing with present situations, not past. I don't think it would be possible to track down and apologise to everyone we had ever wronged!

I think we need to let some things go and other things we could rightly make restitution for. To take an obvious example someone else gave ... a lie that convicted someone in court I would think needed setting right morally if nothing else. However a lie that might have hurt someone but doesn't have ongoing consequences or was minor you could let go.

We've all wronged many people in life in bigger or smaller ways. I think if you pray, you will know what you need to address and what you can just lay before the cross.

 

[ForHisGlory2008]

BTW - just a thought, sometimes it can do more harm than good to track someone down and raise something that is in the past. So as a rule, if you want to make amends but in doing so you risk harm to someone else rather than healing, proceed cautiously. You don't want to reopen old wounds for anyone fresh even if it makes you feel better. Commit those situations to God and ask him for healing for the person or people concerned.

 

[AndrasGregorik]

Thank you; I tend to agree with you. However, I found this radical site (biblicalcounseling.com) that is all about the purported obligation to make amends. What they say sounds so strict and even un-Biblical to me but I wonder if they are right. They say:

"Unresolved past offenses do not fade as time passes. Instead they get bigger and more serious. Do we truly understand how to request forgiveness biblically? Have we secretly hoped that if we postpone clearing our conscience with someone, the problem will diminish with time? When we offend someone, the words “I’m sorry,” or “I apologize,” are not acceptable phrases. (...) Our “pre-conversion” offenses still count and we must make them right. One commonly held misconception about guilt is the assumption that we do not need to seek forgiveness for the offenses that we committed while we were still in an unsaved state. The mistaken belief is that since God forgave us for all of our sins when we came to Christ in repentance and faith, our pre-conversion offenses “don’t count. The truth of the matter is that when we offend someone we must ask God and the person we offended for forgiveness no matter how long ago the offense occurred. Genuine repentance is the only means for the removal of guilt. Procrastination weakens our consciences because we must ignore the promptings of the Holy Spirit in order to procrastinate. God expects immediate obedience to His commands. When we refuse to obey Him promptly, God allows our hearts to harden toward Him and toward the convicting power of His Word.
Saying “I’m sorry” is not the same as asking for forgiveness.
Most Christians do not understand the biblical guidelines for requesting forgiveness. One particularly prevalent deception is the belief that the words “I’m sorry,” or “I apologize” are acceptable phrases when an offender asks someone else for forgiveness. These are inadequate approaches. When we offend someone, we must first demonstrate genuine repentance and humility by acknowledging our sins. We should always use the words, “I was wrong,” and we should specifically name the offenses that we committed. Finally, we should ask the question, “Will you please forgive me?” Anything short of this approach is unbiblical and will not lead to true restoration and reconciliation.”

What do you think?

 

[ForHisGlory2008]

I disagree with that site especially that past offenses get bigger and more serious as time passes. That might be true if you've murdered someone but for some other stuff, not so. In fact, like I've said, sometimes to revisit them can actually cause fresh hurt, damage and offense. Sometimes we might want to raise something to make ourselves feel better but it is actually not the loving thing to do - it can be the selfish thing to do if we make ourselves feel better at someone else's expense. To say that past offenses get bigger and aren't dealt with unless you've sought restitution in every case, I feel, even undermines the work of Jesus on the cross. The sin is dealt with - and unless there is a need, some things need not be revisited. Salvation and forgiveness is not works based.

It is true that even forgiven sin can have consequences i.e. if you robbed a bank 20 years ago and became a Christian five years ago you might still have to go to jail if you were linked to the crime after the conversion ... but if you stole $5 out of someone's purse and you haven't seen them for 20 years, you don't HAVE to go to them if they are no longer in your life. If you feel you need to, go for it, but it may be sufficient for you to make amends in kind i.e. a contribution to charity as restitution, or just ask God for forgiveness.

Getting hung up on every past sin could become a stumbling block and the devil would love to have you feel unworthy or stuck on past sins. Doesn't Paul say that he doesn't look at what is behind but at what is ahead and strains on towards the prize?

So yes, sometimes it is good to make amends, other times it is best to just let the sin be covered by the blood of Jesus. I truly believe that God would rather you spend time looking forward and growing strong in Him than looking back and feeling guilty. The devil loves to drag up the past.

 

[AndrasGregorik]

Thanks and I agree with you. The guilt-related articles on that site seem to disturb me on a deep level, and I'm sure they'll disturb many more who read them. Even felt compelled to write their author (someone called Debbi D.) a mail which I quote:


Dear Dr Debbi (or representative),

are you absolutely sure that your Guilt Resolution articles are "biblical" as you claim?
I am also a Christian and am sorry to say that I found big chunks in your articles accusative, hairsplitting, deceptive, and thus unbiblical.

For instance: you claim that making amends is necessary even when the relationship with the once-offended individual is harmonious. You also claim that a repenting Christian must precisely name the particular offense when confronting the once-offended. Absolutely nothing in the New Testament supports either of these practices. In several cases they may well aggravate the situation, as they mean slashing an already healed scar open. The harmony in the relationship in the first place indicates that "reconciliation" had already occurred successfully (Mt 5:23-24), thanks to the Grace of God. Am I to destroy the peace now by bringing the offense up between the two of us, "namechecking" the sin and expecting my once-offended sibling to proceed as if nothing happened?.. It is likely that he or she will now hold a brand new grudge based upon my unexpected action, especially if he/she is a non-Christian or a weak Christian. I believe that you are suggesting that we should enter a vicious circle by insisting that one is obliged to specifically name all our offenses to the offended when asking for forgiveness. Jesus is far from suggesting anything like what you write; not in Matthew 5:23-24 or anywhere else. He does not require more in this regard than making and maintaining a general sense of peace with our siblings -- which has to be attainable at all times by a less hairsplitting, less Spartan, thus more biblical method. One which is only necessary if he or she still acts offended.
This is what my Faith tells me. I've started a thread on ChristianForums.com to discuss the veracity of your statements.

I don't know if you will reply. Excuse me for all of the above.
God bless, Andras G. (Hungary)



But I wonder what everyone else's take on the above is. (Excuse my English.)

 

[JCSeeker]

The harmony in the relationship in the first place indicates that "reconciliation" had already occurred successfully (Mt 5:23-24), thanks to the Grace of God.

I agree. In God's kingdom, the heart is more important than words. If you have repented in your heart, God will forgive you <<< this is the most important thing.

Next, reconciling with your friends/neighbors/enemies is only necessary when they still hold a grudge against you. People make mistakes all the time; if we held grudges for each one, we'd be filled with hatred. So if you can tell that they have forgiven you, then you need not mention the past offense.

Of course, God is different from people. If you remember a past offense you haven't repented for, then go to God and be forgiven. You can go to him whenever, even if you remember the sin 20 years after the offense. Praise God! His forgiveness transcends time and place.

 

[bliz]

While I do not agree that past sins necessarily get bigger over time, or with needless guilt inducement, I do agree with the process of asking forgiveness.

To simply say "I'm sorry." is not the same as asking for forgiveness. It's a statement about myself, not about our relationship. It also does not open up the discussion for response from the one who was wronged. Sometimes One learns that the offense was forgiven long ago, or not a matter of consequence. Sometimes one learns how very hurtful their actions were, and I think our understanding the full impact our sins is important.

In The U.S., at least, I hear a lot of people say "I need to apologize to you for XYZ." And that's as far as the "apology goes. It's not even an apology a all - it's only saying that there should be one. Not to mention, it doesn't take the next step and ask for forgiveness.

One time I had to go and apologize to an office. I had gone there asking where a check was, and they assured me it had been sent to my office, and I assured them that I had not received it, and that office had a reputation for such lousy service and making mistakes and poor attitudes and many people became involved in the search for the check which did not show up. Upon returning to my office, you know it, the check was there and had been there all along.

I walked back to the office (on a college campus) to the office and asked if we could gather back all the people who had gotten dragged into the search, and the boss who had been well aware of it, and I apologized explaining that it had been my fault and my oversight that had wasted their time and also asked for forgiveness, which was granted. But here's where it gets real interesting - instead of getting more bad attitude from this office, they began to give me great service and show positive attitudes! My willingness to go to them brought about changes in them! I would have thought, if anything, they would give me even worse service.

This is not intended as a story of how I did the right thing (often I fail to) but of how God can use our willingness to follow His ways to bring about change.


And all of this is a response to our salvation - not a way to earn or maintain our status as Christians.

You might want to visit http://www.peacemaker.net/site/c.aqKFLTOBIpH/b.958123/

 

[AndrasGregorik]

That's a beautiful story, Bliz. Yet in general, I for one still believe that naming our offenses specifically to the offended has much more to do with a humanistic (quasi-secular) approach than what Jesus requires in the very few passages He actually addresses the issue.
The offended knows full well what the cause of the personal conflict is, otherwise he/she wouldn't be offended in the first place.
For example, I cheated on my then-girlfriend way before my conversion. I returned to her after my conversion (2 years after our split-up) to ask for forgiveness, but felt exactly that putting my offense into words beforehand would be too much for her and she would just probably drive me away. So my apology turned out to be a seemingly general one, but I believe it worked very well; she did forgive all.

'The devil's in the details', as they say, and I feel it applies to making amends as well: going into the details of the offense may only make things worse.

What does everyone else think about the issue?




My apologies to the Biblicalcounseling.com site and Debbi D. for calling their system unbiblical.

 

[heron]

sometimes it can do more harm than good to track someone down and raise something that is in the past. So as a rule, if you want to make amends but in doing so you risk harm to someone else rather than healing, proceed cautiously. You don't want to reopen old wounds for anyone fresh even if it makes you feel better.

Agreed. And it can come out not sounding genuine, even if you meant it to be.

Lol, one time a friend approached me with a confession over something I knew nothing about, "I apologize for my jealousy of you being __, ___, ___, and would like you to forgive me." It felt like a slam (for me being what I didn't know I was).

It also felt like a counselor or group leader had told her she needed to do this, so all value of remorse was washed out by the sense that she did it to feel better about herself, not better about me. So a confession can potentially do more harm than good, especially if it comes out of the blue.

Restitution is different. If we take something from someone, it still deserves to be their posession. So these things should be restored. Hopefully our finances are better when we're older, so it's doesn't feel like as much of a dent. It might even turn out funny, mailing back an action figure "this is for the one I microwaved in third grade."

We all have bits of unresolved anger and guilt that rise up occasionally. When they come up, we release toxins into our system, and these toxins are at the beginnings of cancer and cardiopulmonary diseases. If we resolve things within ourselves, we are healthier. If we offer restitution, we bring health and peace to others.

I would start with a few that seem big and unresolved to you. Asking forgiveness, as said above, is sometimes empty, so do it wisely and thoughtfully. There are also thankyou's that might need to be said -- people who made a big impact on your life. But the principle behind this should not be fear of rejection by God. It is about setting a standard that should be kept up, and appreciating the value of others' lives.

God has brought some people back into my life after decades, and we've been able to work out some strange things that happened when we were young idiots. It was very natural and pleasant, and felt like the right timing -- we were just able to laugh at ourselves.

Unless you know for sure that you harmed others or caused them loss, let some of these work themselves out over time. If you know someone is still suffering from what you did, rectify that soon.

 

[AndrasGregorik]

Bringing this back up in the hope of getting more biblical food for thought .

My questions:
Should one make amends for one's pre-conversion sins?
Even if the relationship grew harmonious by now?
And should one name each sin specifically to the offended?

 

[heron]

Should one make amends for one's pre-conversion sins?
Even if the relationship grew harmonious by now?
And should one name each sin specifically to the offended?

How I do it might not be right. I do not go back to each person -- only the ones that are bugging me.

In the harmonious friendships, I am more likely to bring it up because I'm already talking with them -- it can slip into a conversation easily. But I don't think most offenses are required. Imagine trying to go back and reverse every harsh word you said to someone who lived with you for decades!

I think that it is very legalistic to get wrapped up in apologies, and puts other people in a position where they must respond courteously, when they would rather forget. If the offense was a crime, then of course we should make amends.