Should I become an Episcopalian?

[Lilac]

Hi Everybody in this forum! I am having some "denomination confusion" currently -I've been drawn in spirit, mind, body and soul" for quite some time to the Episcopal Church, for a multitude of reasons, but am having second thoughts because of their liberalism, and their lack of values, i.e., the ordaination of homosexuals and their stance on abortion. I've been doing tons of reading, and it seems to me that the ONLY church that has truly upheld the morals/teachings/church traditions has been the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church. I don't know how to look at this! I want to stay in my Episcopal Church, but also want a church who sticks to their guns, not bending to the world.

Does anyone have some thoughts re: this?

I am not in any way a judgmental person, as I have some "gay" friends whom I love dearly, but I wonder does one have to truly believe 100% with the church's doctrine to be a member? These issues mentioned above, really leave me very perplexed.

Could someone lend some insight on this?

Thank you so kindly.

God Bless,

 

[PaladinValer]

Hi Everybody in this forum! I am having some "denomination confusion" currently -I've been drawn in spirit, mind, body and soul" for quite some time to the Episcopal Church, for a multitude of reasons, but am having second thoughts because of their liberalism, and their lack of values, i.e., the ordaination of homosexuals and their stance on abortion.

The official stance of the AC as a whole is that homosexuals may be full active members of the Church but if they wish to be ordained clergy, they must be celibate. There is still a great deal of debate throughout the entire AC over this issue, with both sides giving evidence to their conclusions.

As for abortion, I believe the official policy of the entire AC is that a woman should prayerfully consider her choices and only go through an abortion if there are severe complications or in the cases of rape or incest.

I've been doing tons of reading, and it seems to me that the ONLY church that has truly upheld the morals/teachings/church traditions has been the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church. I don't know how to look at this! I want to stay in my Episcopal Church, but also want a church who sticks to their guns, not bending to the world.

With all due respect to both of those Churches, they too have changed their policies throughout the years. The Vatican II and the Counter Reformation of the Catholics and the reforms that caused the Old Believers schism in the Eastern Orthodox Church (who are basically uber-traditionalists) provide powerful testimony that they too have changed.

I should also note that perhaps the Holy Spirit was leading the Catholics, the Orthodox, and the Anglicans/Episcopalians today with these changes. The Catholics and the Orthodox today probably believe that the Holy Spirit was there, and we A/Es are going through the same sort of theme. Perhaps it isn't the world at all, but I may be mistaken.

I am not in any way a judgmental person, as I have some "gay" friends whom I love dearly, but I wonder does one have to truly believe 100% with the church's doctrine to be a member? These issues mentioned above, really leave me very perplexed.

The AC is known for its great diversity. On one hand, we have the famous author of the Chronicals of Narnia, C.S Lewis as one of our more conservative members. On the other hand, we have retired bishop Shelby Spong as one of our more liberal members. They disagree on many issues, yet are equal members of the AC. We like to think that, because we are open to all, we are truly an ecumenical Church.

So long as you hold to Scripture, Tradition, and Reason, uphold Christian orthodoxy as established in the Ecumenical Councils, can faithfully recite the ancient Creeds (Nicene, Apostles', and St. Athanasius'), and enjoy truly friendly and truly wonderful folks, you can be a full member. We all disagree on some issues, but our common faith and love in Jesus of Nazareth goes far beyond all that. That is why Lewis and Spong can sit together at the same Eucharistic Table and receive both the Body and Blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus the Christ. Their stedfast faith in God, we believe, goes beyond our mortal squabbles.

I hope this helps. If you wish for a more 1-on-1 conversation, please feel free to PM (Private Message) me anytime

 

[Lilac]

Thank you so much Paladin---and how beautiful your response:

"That is why Lewis & Spong sit together at the same Eucharistic Table"----how magnificent indeed---yes--we are all one aren't we? In Jesus.

Thank you again brother for your reply to me, a newbie on this forum!

I have so many questions about my faith, I'm exploding with interest and also with love for the Lord.

God Bless~~

 

[PaladinValer]

I highly suggest you consider all things carefully. Above all:

1. Study the Early Church, especially the Creeds and the Ecumenical Councils. Their ancient lists of heresies are important for all Christians to study and know so they can faithfully avoid them.
2. Read up on the history of the Early Church. Most, if not all of their ancient traditions are a rich source of knowledge, faith, and affirmation of the Christian Message.
3. Don't forget to read your Bible seriously and faithfully. Read it carefully with some good study guides. Get to learn something of ancient Jewish, Greek, etc culture, philosophy, linguistics (especially in idioms and symbolism), and history: IMO, it is utterly impossible to read the Bible seriously and faithfully without this powerful background information for the Bible is chuck-full of it.
4. But at the same time, don't ignore the fact that the Church did come before the canonization of the Bible. Authority does reside in the Church, and Holy Tradition, if Reasonable, should be a powerful aid in understanding the Bible.

And perhaps most important of absolutely everything:

5: Be weary of modern day pharisees, who lift their right hand on high in Glory of God and in their left, a fold of money. We all know who the big culprits are today, but that doesn't mean there aren't more of 'em around. Listen carefully to "experts" and investigate if you think something is wrong. Too often have we Christians been led astray to the power of a charismatic voice full of the Holy Spirit who in reality did nothing but spread lies, deceit, misinformation, and hatred. Just because someone claims to have the Holy Spirit doesn't make them right all the time. Those who use that as an excuse should be cautiously approached and listened to.

 

[Rilian]

That is why Lewis and Spong can sit together at the same Eucharistic Table and receive both the Body and Blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus the Christ.

Just to add one small thing as someone who in large part was brought into Christianity through the writings of C.S. Lewis...

I think it's a little difficult to say what C.S. Lewis would have thought of a standing bishop who publicly denies fundamental aspects of Christian belief. It's probably fair to say he would have been deeply troubled by it though. All we can say on the matter is that he died in 1963, long before Spong was a bishop.

 

[Colabomb]

Just to add one small thing as someone who in large part was brought into Christianity through the writings of C.S. Lewis...

I think it's a little difficult to say what C.S. Lewis would have thought of a standing bishop who publicly denies fundamental aspects of Christian belief. It's probably fair to say he would have been deeply troubled by it though. All we can say on the matter is that he died in 1963, long before Spong was a bishop.

I think it is safe to say that Lewis would not recieve Communion with Spong.

Also, if you are troubled by the Liberal aspects of ECUSA, as I am, I would recommend either our Denomination (The Reformed Episcopal Church) or A.M.I.A (Anglican Mission in America) or one of the "Continuing Anglican" groups such as the Southern Episcopal Church or The Anglican Province of America.

Anglicanism is not limited to the Anglican Communion. And contrary to what others on this board may believe, Rowan Williams is nothing more than the head of the Church of ENGLAND.

God Bless you Richly in the Peace of the Christ!

 

[Lilac]

Paladin:

I'm a little confused you say in the AC to be ordained as a priest, a homosexual has to be celibate. What about that Bishop back East then who has been living with his partner? He's clearly not celibate!!

Also....someone mentioned the "Reformed Episcopal Church".....could you please tell me exactly what this is? How does one go about finding this type of church near where you live? Do you call the Diocese and ask them to refer you to a "Reformed Episcopal Church"? I've never come across this before either in the phone book or signs.

Thank you so much for your help and advice! I really would love to find an Episcopal Church to join that is more on the conservative end of the spectrum as the church's liberalism has bothered me for some time.

 

[BarbB]

Lilac - check out Episcopal churches which are members of the American Anglican Council. They are the ones which may be overseen by other more conservative bishops. The church I was saved in in W. Newbury, Mass. is doing this. Their attendance is up 50% probably from NH congregants! I love the liturgy and loved that church but the churches in FL and NJ where I am now are not so conservative!

Best to you!

 

[Bartimaeus]

Lilac,
I have a friend at the local church I attend who is, on the one hand, very charismatic in her beliefs (which some folks would consider liberal I guess), but on the other, she holds fast to traditions such as not saying "hallelujah" during the season of lent. The AC/episcopal church has such a wide variety of people in it that I would follow PaladinValer's advice and study, and learn about the church. I also wouldn't let the more liberal aspects scare you away. If you don't agree with something the church has done/said, you're probably not alone. Those who don't agree with homosexual priests, for example, should stick together, not leave the church. Just my opinions.

 

[Colabomb]

Lilac,
I have a friend at the local church I attend who is, on the one hand, very charismatic in her beliefs (which some folks would consider liberal I guess), but on the other, she holds fast to traditions such as not saying "hallelujah" during the season of lent. The AC/episcopal church has such a wide variety of people in it that I would follow PaladinValer's advice and study, and learn about the church. I also wouldn't let the more liberal aspects scare you away. If you don't agree with something the church has done/said, you're probably not alone. Those who don't agree with homosexual priests, for example, should stick together, not leave the church. Just my opinions.

There may not be an REC church near where you live. We are a small denomination.

Also, we are separate from the ECUSA. You probably won't be able to find one by calling an ECUSA diocese.

Here is a link to our denominational website.

http://rechurch.org/home2.htm

 

[BAChristian]

With all due respect to both of those Churches, they too have changed their policies throughout the years. The Vatican II and the Counter Reformation of the Catholics and the reforms that caused the Old Believers schism in the Eastern Orthodox Church (who are basically uber-traditionalists) provide powerful testimony that they too have changed.

I would like to point out that the Church doesn't change dogma. Once it's defined, it can't be changed. Now, traditions (note the lowercase t), that entails how we do Mass, etc, obviously can be changed. But Traditions (note the uppercase) cannot...

It's been often stated that the Church has "changed" its stance on issues. It has not...nor can it. Once the Church defines dogma and the Pope speaks ex cathedra, it's defined...end of story. Unfortunately, people look at the Church, and they see how the Church changed the way it did Mass during Vatican II, and they say, "The Church changed!" Well yeah -- it's traditions...but not it's Traditions...not it's official doctrine.

Another example is the "Reformation". The selling of indulgences was bad...very bad...and that's because of clergy abuse, NOT official Church teaching. The Church hasn't changed its stance on what it teaches on indulgences. It did however, correct the abuse of indulgences -- two seperate, and distinct things.

Just thought I'd interject that quick tidbit...

 

[TomUK]

But without being awkward, we don't recognise any ex cathedra 'comments' by the pope. Though my wing of the anglican church receive his opinions with respect, we don't immediatley validate them as part of church law. The church of england and the anglican communion doesn't regard the pope with the same sort of authority as the catholic church

 

[ufonium2]

With all due respect to both of those Churches, they too have changed their policies throughout the years. The Vatican II and the Counter Reformation of the Catholics and the reforms that caused the Old Believers schism in the Eastern Orthodox Church (who are basically uber-traditionalists) provide powerful testimony that they too have changed.

In all fairness, it should be pointed out that the Old Believers schism was not over doctrinal reformation, but objection among some Russians to a more accurate translation of the liturgy (based on the Greek, which is why it offended some Russians) and whether to make the sign of the cross with two fingers or three (again offensive because 3 fingers was a Greek custom) which are as BAChristian pointed out, "little t" tradition. You can read about this schism online here: http://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG0804/_PL.HTM#6

There are still schisms happening within Orthodoxy over "little t" stuff like Old Calendar vs. New. You call these things "policies" which is fairly accurate, but you seem to equate them with dogma.

Not to minimize the Old Believers, I have great respect for anyone who is willing to basically excommunicate themselves when they perceive their church going astray, but that "reformation" was not doctrinal. There's no Orthodox doctrine about the proper way to cross yourself, the best liturgical translation, which calendar to use or whether to have pews. They aren't doctrinal matters; changes to them aren't doctrinal changes, and regional variants in them aren't doctrinal discrepencies.

 

[BAChristian]

But without being awkward, we don't recognise any ex cathedra 'comments' by the pope. Though my wing of the anglican church receive his opinions with respect, we don't immediatley validate them as part of church law. The church of england and the anglican communion doesn't regard the pope with the same sort of authority as the catholic church

Of course. I realize that. I was never insinuating that you do recognize the Pope.

I just want to ensure, that while our faiths are alike, if we are going to state what either faith does, or is doing, or teaches, that we do so faithfully, and with proper understanding.

That's all I ask.

I can tell you right now that I don't know much about the Anglican church...hence why I wanted to be a mod here. It will force me to come in here (I'm usually only in OBOB), and I'll learn something new.