Should I be baptised again ?

[1an]

Assuming a valid Christian Baptism...When you were Baptized you were made part of Christ's Body. You are a Christian.

To be a Christian you need to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, accept Him into your heart, and follow him all the days of your life. A baby cannot even begin to understand this, never mind make a life long commitment.
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[ViaCrucis]

True, but I meant where were they spiritually. In order for them to turn away from God they must have known, believed and followed Him previously.

This is important, because the OSAS people say, that those who backslide never believed in the first place, but here we have God himself saying, they have turned away from me, meaning they once belonged, honoured and followed him previously. This to my mind proves that people can and do turn away from the Lord.
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I'm not a OSAS person.

The context of what St. Paul is saying in Romans is that mankind--the whole lot of us--are sinners. We, collectively, have turned away from God. This happened in the Garden, which is why the same Apostle says that through the one man (Adam) has come sin and death to all men.

I subscribe to the broadly Augustinian interpretation, the same as the rest of the Western Church, that this is Original Sin; each person is born with concupiscience, the selfish and inward desire of the passions. We come into existence as homo incurvatus in se--"man curved inward upon himself".

We don't begin life as non-sinners only to later become sinners; we began our human existence as sinners. We aren't sinners because we sin, we sin because we are sinners.

Of course the Western/Augustinian interpretation isn't the only one. The Eastern Churches have not really subscribed to Original Sin in the same way. Rather instead speaking of Ancestral Sin. So while the Orthodox may not understand man as conceived in original sin, the net result is fundamentally without much difference: Sin is the reality of our present humanity, and it is inescapable except by salvation and grace from Christ.

The remaining option, Pelagianism, isn't a valid option. Pelagianism is heretical, because though Pelagius himself would not have said that grace isn't necessary, that is the inevitable consequence of his teaching. Further, Pelagius so fundamentally misunderstood grace as to reckon it meaningless. For Pelagius grace was a common property from God by which any person could by their own effort be obedient to God and thereby be righteous entirely by his or her own works. So there is only a prevenient grace by which men obey God's Law, not the direct intervention of grace that redeems the sinner as taught in the Holy Gospel of our Lord and His apostles.

We aren't born guilty. But we are born sinful.
Sin isn't merely some external thing, it is fully imbedded in myself. St. Paul saying that sin is in our very members--it's in our limbs, fingers, toes, it's in the deepest part of us. Sin and death are inextricably connected. Which is why our salvation isn't merely a "salvation of the soul", but the salvation of our whole human person and nature. We look forward to the redemption of our mortal bodies, the day when our flesh rises incorruptible and immortal, transformed by grace and the Spirit, on the Last Day.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

To be a Christian you need to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, accept Him into your heart, and follow him all the days of your life. A baby cannot even begin to understand this, never mind make a life long commitment.
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How can one believe unless they have faith? Read through Romans ch. 10 here. Pay attention to verse 17. After that, go and read Ephesians 2:8 and Ephesians 5:26.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[1an]

How can one believe unless they have faith? Read through Romans ch. 10 here. Pay attention to verse 17. After that, go and read Ephesians 2:8 and Ephesians 5:26.

-CryptoLutheran

Faith comes by hearing. This rules out infant salvation as they have no understanding.

 

[1an]

I'm not a OSAS person.

The context of what St. Paul is saying in Romans is that mankind--the whole lot of us--are sinners. We, collectively, have turned away from God. This happened in the Garden, which is why the same Apostle says that through the one man (Adam) has come sin and death to all men.

I subscribe to the broadly Augustinian interpretation, the same as the rest of the Western Church, that this is Original Sin; each person is born with concupiscience, the selfish and inward desire of the passions. We come into existence as homo incurvatus in se--"man curved inward upon himself".

We don't begin life as non-sinners only to later become sinners; we began our human existence as sinners. We aren't sinners because we sin, we sin because we are sinners.

Of course the Western/Augustinian interpretation isn't the only one. The Eastern Churches have not really subscribed to Original Sin in the same way. Rather instead speaking of Ancestral Sin. So while the Orthodox may not understand man as conceived in original sin, the net result is fundamentally without much difference: Sin is the reality of our present humanity, and it is inescapable except by salvation and grace from Christ.

The remaining option, Pelagianism, isn't a valid option. Pelagianism is heretical, because though Pelagius himself would not have said that grace isn't necessary, that is the inevitable consequence of his teaching. Further, Pelagius so fundamentally misunderstood grace as to reckon it meaningless. For Pelagius grace was a common property from God by which any person could by their own effort be obedient to God and thereby be righteous entirely by his or her own works. So there is only a prevenient grace by which men obey God's Law, not the direct intervention of grace that redeems the sinner as taught in the Holy Gospel of our Lord and His apostles.

We aren't born guilty. But we are born sinful.
Sin isn't merely some external thing, it is fully imbedded in myself. St. Paul saying that sin is in our very members--it's in our limbs, fingers, toes, it's in the deepest part of us. Sin and death are inextricably connected. Which is why our salvation isn't merely a "salvation of the soul", but the salvation of our whole human person and nature. We look forward to the redemption of our mortal bodies, the day when our flesh rises incorruptible and immortal, transformed by grace and the Spirit, on the Last Day.

-CryptoLutheran

You make an important point when you say we are not born guilty, and that was the point I was making with new-born babies.
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[ViaCrucis]

Faith comes by hearing. This rules out infant salvation as they have no understanding.

The Apostle doesn't say "faith comes by understanding". But also, what else does it say? "And hearing by the word of Christ".

It's the word that gives faith, creates faith. As faith is God's gift (Ephesians 2:8).

I also quoted Ephesians 5:26, which says that Christ has cleansed His Church "by the washing of water with the word". See what the word is attached to here, it's water.

What kind of water? The only water that matters, theologically, is the water of baptism.

The infant is baptized, and there God's word is, and where the word is there is faith.

It's not up to us to believe the right things and understand the right things.
It's up to God who by His grace alone gives us faith, through which He appropriates to us the full and perfect work of Christ.

With that in mind, see what else Scripture says concerning Baptism.

It doesn't matter that the infant doesn't understand. God's grace does not depend on us, it depends on Him who is gracious.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[1an]

The Apostle doesn't say "faith comes by understanding". But also, what else does it say? "And hearing by the word of Christ".

It's the word that gives faith, creates faith. As faith is God's gift (Ephesians 2:8).

I also quoted Ephesians 5:26, which says that Christ has cleansed His Church "by the washing of water with the word". See what the word is attached to here, it's water.

What kind of water? The only water that matters, theologically, is the water of baptism.

The infant is baptized, and there God's word is, and where the word is there is faith.

It's not up to us to believe the right things and understand the right things.
It's up to God who by His grace alone gives us faith, through which He appropriates to us the full and perfect work of Christ.

With that in mind, see what else Scripture says concerning Baptism.

It doesn't matter that the infant doesn't understand. God's grace does not depend on us, it depends on Him who is gracious.

-CryptoLutheran

That is what I said, faith comes first by hearing and understanding follows.
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[ViaCrucis]

You make an important point when you say we are not born guilty, and that was the point I was making with new-born babies.
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Baptism is not just to wash away previous sinful acts--that is where people like Tertullian got things quite wrong. Baptism is the new birth by grace into God's kingdom and family. We are cleansed in Baptism not because water is magic, but because God has attached His word to the water (that's what makes it Baptism and not just some meaningless getting wet ceremony).

An infant sinner, the same as an adult sinner, receives the same grace and promises. Because God doesn't play favorites, He doesn't show partiality: the Gospel is for everyone.

So we do not just baptize adult converts, but we baptize our children as well.

And I've had enough conversations like this to know that what often follows is an objection such as, "Why don't we just shoot water guns at people in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit?". But it is simple enough: Baptism is how we make disciples, Christ's command to His Church is, "Make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit, teaching them all which I have taught you." We therefore baptize adult converts and our children; because these being entrusted to the pastoral and shepherding care of the Church are taught, reared up, and instructed in the faith (whether from infancy or from the beginning of conversion).

This is why when we baptize, we also--as the congregation--make our pledge to those being baptized. They have become members of the village (as it were), and thus are now our family. We don't merely baptize and forget, we baptize and then make good on our promise and commitment to the baptized. Every baptism involves an affirmation of faith not only from the baptizee or sponsor (parent or guardian), but also the affirmation of the community of faith. A baptized adult convert and a baptized infant are equally babes in Christ, and equally need the care of the Church, that they might grow in faith and maturity in Christ. That's discipleship.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[1an]

Baptism is not just to wash away previous sinful acts--that is where people like Tertullian got things quite wrong. Baptism is the new birth by grace into God's kingdom and family. We are cleansed in Baptism not because water is magic, but because God has attached His word to the water (that's what makes it Baptism and not just some meaningless getting wet ceremony).

An infant sinner, the same as an adult sinner, receives the same grace and promises. Because God doesn't play favorites, He doesn't show partiality: the Gospel is for everyone.

So we do not just baptize adult converts, but we baptize our children as well.

And I've had enough conversations like this to know that what often follows is an objection such as, "Why don't we just shoot water guns at people in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit?". But it is simple enough: Baptism is how we make disciples, Christ's command to His Church is, "Make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit, teaching them all which I have taught you." We therefore baptize adult converts and our children; because these being entrusted to the pastoral and shepherding care of the Church are taught, reared up, and instructed in the faith (whether from infancy or from the beginning of conversion).

This is why when we baptize, we also--as the congregation--make our pledge to those being baptized. They have become members of the village (as it were), and thus are now our family. We don't merely baptize and forget, we baptize and then make good on our promise and commitment to the baptized. Every baptism involves an affirmation of faith not only from the baptizee or sponsor (parent or guardian), but also the affirmation of the community of faith. A baptized adult convert and a baptized infant are equally babes in Christ, and equally need the care of the Church, that they might grow in faith and maturity in Christ. That's discipleship.

-CryptoLutheran

Keeping to the subject, what previous sins do new born babies have?
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[ViaCrucis]

Keeping to the subject, what previous sins do new born babies have?
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I don't think it's possible to impugn a newborn infant with personal sins. But then, my whole previous post was that Baptism isn't (just) about washing away previous sins.

We don't wait until a child shows symptoms to vaccinate, we vaccinate long before symptoms show up.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[1an]

I don't think it's possible to impugn a newborn infant with personal sins. But then, my whole previous post was that Baptism isn't (just) about washing away previous sins.

We don't wait until a child shows symptoms to vaccinate, we vaccinate long before symptoms show up.

-CryptoLutheran

Your first sentence is correct and that was the point I was making. I have no desire at this point to go into the various doctrines of the different churches. Thank you.
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[LightLoveHope]

...depending on whether one is an adherent of the faith of historic Christianity--either Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican, Lutheran, or Reformed--or, on the other hand, of the minority of a minority which came out of the so-called "Radical Reformation."

So now, just about every possible "slant" or advice on Baptism has been offered to Lucille. It is not for us to debate against each other on this forum.

Debate is healthy, because it helps to explore how we believe and why.

I respect others positions if heart felt. It is like the idea a priest performing mass is the meaning, whether they believe or not is irrelevant. But break this down, you end up with a stage show pretending reality not living it.

That is death to me, a denial of all Jesus died to save. It is a cardboard cut out of pretending you love while hating every moment. I met a family where every family meeting was dominated by this feeling, or at least from the individual I knew.

Reality of the heart, love made clear is Jesus. If our celebrations show this, amen, but idolatry easily replaces the heart reality. God bless you

 

[Albion]

Debate is healthy, because it helps to explore how we believe and why.

Except that this is not a debate forum. There are several other forums here which are for debate, though.

The stated purpose of this forum and this thread is to advise the person who wrote the OP, not to produce a debate among the people who write back to him or her. The questioner could ask follow-up questions of anybody who gave a reply, however, if that is what you had in mind.

 

[Eloy Craft]

What offence have they committed?

What difference does that make? Unless you are saying we are all born with no need of a savior?

 

[Eloy Craft]

Faith comes by hearing. This rules out infant salvation as they have no understanding.

I dunno about that !an. Faith through hearing. The beginning.
Luke !:41
41 When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the child leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit 42 and exclaimed with a loud cry, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb. 43 And why has this happened to me, that the mother of my Lord comes to me? 44 For as soon as I heard the sound of your greeting, the child in my womb leaped for joy. 45 And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of what was spoken to her by the Lord.”

 

[concretecamper]

To be a Christian you need to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, accept Him into your heart, and follow him all the days of your life. A baby cannot even begin to understand this, never mind make a life long commitment.

I know many people believe this but it is a man made idea that has no scriptural backing.

 

[1an]

What difference does that make? Unless you are saying we are all born with no need of a savior?

We were talking about infant mortality.
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[1an]

I dunno about that !an. Faith through hearing. The beginning.
Luke !:41
41 When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the child leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit 42 and exclaimed with a loud cry, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb. 43 And why has this happened to me, that the mother of my Lord comes to me? 44 For as soon as I heard the sound of your greeting, the child in my womb leaped for joy. 45 And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of what was spoken to her by the Lord.”

She was filled with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit would understand and know very well, already. The Comforter was just waiting for the phone call. (grin) I'm serious. The Holy Spirit was present with them.
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[1an]

I know many people believe this but it is a man made idea that has no scriptural backing.

Then tell me your version of how we are saved from the Bible.
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[Eloy Craft]

We were talking about infant mortality.
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You are claiming that we don't need a savior until our first sin. Kinda the opposite of infant mortality. OTOH What a good thing it would be to kill your child before they need a savior..