should I, a messianic gentile circumcise my son

jehoiakim

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So basically I am a gentile with messianic theology thanks to FFOZ, and we follow the whole divine invitation thing,that is as gentiles we believe we are invited to participate in the Torah, but it is not required. we celebrate shabbat but only on friday nights,we haven't worked our way into Saturdays at all, we try to recognize the holidays, we eat kosher in the home in terms that we stay away from unclean meats, but we do not pay attention to the method of killing the animal because of our insistence on grassfed- no hormones or antibiotic and only organic convictions. Our theology is messianic, but we attend a regular christian church and fellowship mostly with Christians who don't get it. I have a son coming any day now and I am seriously having trouble with circumcision and whether it is appropriate for our son. It is hard because we don't fully keep Torah, we feel distinctly gentile and we don't plan to change that, we feel our call is to help bridge the gap between messianic Jews and Christians. We don't have any concern about trusting in circumcision, as Shaul says it is nothing, but it is also symbolic of wanting to have a child who is set apart for God, Abraham was circumcised before the Torah, and so we are thinking it might be something for us to do also. I do know that there are many in the Jewish community who are sensitive to messianic gentiles virtually pretending or defrauding people to think that they are messianic jews you know that who two house theology thing. I am praying totally lost on what to do, I go back and forth. I am also concerned that according to Torah I should not be celebrating Passover with my son if he is not circumcised. Thoughts??? any are appreciated.
 

Tishri1

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Where is your heart and soul leading you ....do that !
We circumcised both our boys before we were MJ just as a symbol of being Christian. If that's not what is done today in the church then boy have times changed!!! I just knew it was right to do... to be a sign thru-out their lives that they belonged to God.
Plus it's healthier for them and their wives :)
 
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jehoiakim

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In my heart and through prayer I sincerely believe if I circumcise I am doing so for the right reasons and it honors G-d. I also believe if I choose not to it is equally justified an honoring to G-d to recognize my place and my children's place in the role of a gentile believer and it is honoring to my true Jewish brethren not to and it respects their tradition as I am not a Jewish convert nor are my children although of faith is deeply influenced by the Hebrew roots of our faith.
 
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Tzav

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I am a Messianic Gentile, Jehoiakim. G-d made me a Gentile and for me, the idea of trying to change what G-d did is preposterous -- like deciding His choice was not good enough for me, and I have a better idea. I worship on Sabbath with a shul that is both Jewish and Gentile, and that bothers no one. Yes, we circumcise; yes, we eat kosher food; yes, Sabbath begins on Friday evening and ends on Saturday evening; yes, Friday evening is set aside for family but Saturday, all day, is set aside for observing Sabbath together as a shul. We are one congregation, one people, one community, and no one cares who is and who is not Jewish.

I used to be a member, if one may call oneself that, of FFOZ. I no longer am. I quit receiving their literature when I started reading, in their literature, things I could not agree with, some of which is in your post.

Sometimes, when people disagree, people get upset. There is no reason for us to do this, Jehoiakim. I am not upset. I am not angry. I am merely writing an opinion here. Okay? Please let us continue this, since you asked, in shalom, with the love of Messiah.

So basically I am a gentile with messianic theology thanks to FFOZ, and we follow the whole divine invitation thing,that is as gentiles we believe we are invited to participate in the Torah, but it is not required.
The Divine Invitation. FFOZ's words, as though we can choose whether or not to follow what the Bible says. Like saying, "You may choose to follow G-d's instructions or not follow them. Do you see that, or do you see that as just my opinion?

Read Hebrews 11. Did those people of faith take what G-d said seriously, or did they believe they had a choice as followers of G-d?

we celebrate shabbat but only on friday nights,we haven't worked our way into Saturdays at all,
The only logical reason you have not decided to go all in regarding Sabbath is likely because they taught you a wishy-washy "gospel" of "Well, G-d said it, but do what you choose!"

we try to recognize the holidays, we eat kosher in the home in terms that we stay away from unclean meats, but we do not pay attention to the method of killing the animal because of our insistence on grassfed- no hormones or antibiotic and only organic convictions.
The joy, the observance, the obedience to the G-d and Judge of the world is in doing the holy days, Jehoiakim. It is good that you eat kosher foods, because anything that is not kosher is not meat!. (Would you mind reading that last sentence again, Jehoiakim?) :) I know that it is very difficult to find meats that are kosher in every way, but you can kosher your meats the best you can. Just as there is no Temple, so some observances can only be practiced, not truly done, the same with meats. Do your best before the -ord. :)

Our theology is messianic, but we attend a regular christian church and fellowship mostly with Christians who don't get it.
Is your theology truly Messianic? Sure, the Messianic congregations are just as messed up as the church, but we should be striving to be obedient. And by the way, my intention is "be obedient," not "be Jewish." There is a difference. Be who you are, but be obedient to the G-d Who judges.

I have a son coming any day now and I am seriously having trouble with circumcision and whether it is appropriate for our son. It is hard because we don't fully keep Torah, we feel distinctly gentile and we don't plan to change that, we feel our call is to help bridge the gap between messianic Jews and Christians.
I had a lot of trouble with this when my grandboys were born. But are we serving a G-d Who made mistakes? His judgments are perfect. His Torah is perfect. His Law is for our good.

We don't have any concern about trusting in circumcision, as Shaul says it is nothing,
Reread this with understanding. Paul (who chose to use the name Paul because he was a Jew born a Roman citizen) was telling The Jews that they had nothing over the believing Gentiles. That Scripture is not about circumcising baby boys on the eigth day!

but it is also symbolic of wanting to have a child who is set apart for God, Abraham was circumcised before the Torah, and so we are thinking it might be something for us to do also. I do know that there are many in the Jewish community who are sensitive to messianic gentiles virtually pretending or defrauding people to think that they are messianic jews you know that who two house theology thing. I am praying totally lost on what to do, I go back and forth. I am also concerned that according to Torah I should not be celebrating Passover with my son if he is not circumcised. Thoughts??? any are appreciated.
Messianics are not all Jewish, and they are not all Gentile. We are called to be what we are before the L-rd. And you are right: those males who are not circumcised are not to participate in Passover.

I pray that you are led completely to the Truth. Our Messiah said, in Matthew 5:19, that we must do all of Torah and not teach others that they don't have to do Torah. Read those Scriptures around that reference, okay?

With tender love and interest in you and your family . . . .
 
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jehoiakim

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Thank you sister you have brought up a lot that is worthy of serious thought and consideration I have wrestled with. I know many have trouble with divine invitation and I myself have questions about it. Even though those our worthy points and I would like to discuss them further and hear more of your thoughts I will just stick to circumsicion first. If shaul told Gentiles not to be concerned with circumscision oy for the sake of helping them understand that you do not need to first become Jewish to be saved and that were his only point I would think he wod encourage them to receive circumscision later to be obedient when their hearts were right and their doctrine clear. Perhaps he did so but I would have serious question why that would be left out of the scriptures. I would expect G-d would be sure to make that point clear in the scriptures. I must admit because of that the issue would have to be a lot greyer than I would like.
 
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faroukfarouk

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In Acts, the idea of the obligation of circumcision is that it connotes being under the law; and Paul and Peter emphatically argue against it being an obligation.

It is also a medical procedure, for which some benefits are sometimes argued; it's good for believers truly under grace to keep the issue a medical one, and make the decision on those grounds.
 
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jehoiakim

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Remember also that while shaul did not allow Titus to be circumsised he had Timothy circumsised. If it was only about being under the law why would he have Timothy circumsised? Traditional christian argument leave too many holes for me to be comfortable with that answer. Paul was saying that to be saved you do not have to become Jewish first and while we are under grace Yeshua says that if you love me you will obey my commandments. He also said he came to fulfill it not to abolish it and shaul himself said many times he did not teach against the Torah.
 
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Tishri1

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Lol it's funny how many opinions get tossed around

Just do what convicts you not what others are telling you is right

You read the scriptures and pray and let Abba lead you

It's true there are convicting messages in the Bible so it's important you follow your heart on this

You will never be diss appointed if you follow your heart
 
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jehoiakim

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Please forgive me if that can across harsh I did not mean it to be so. I posted this in the messianic forum because I am seeking council from brothers and sisters who have similar convictions as myself. I appreciate your desire to give me biblically sound advice. Peace and blessings.
 
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faroukfarouk

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Remember also that while shaul did not allow Titus to be circumsised he had Timothy circumsised. If it was only about being under the law why would he have Timothy circumsised? Traditional christian argument leave too many holes for me to be comfortable with that answer. Paul was saying that to be saved you do not have to become Jewish first and while we are under grace Yeshua says that if you love me you will obey my commandments. He also said he came to fulfill it not to abolish it and shaul himself said many times he did not teach against the Torah.

You mean, Paul in circumcising Timothy supposedly contradicted his teaching in Acts?

In fact both are consistent: Paul was not bringing Timothy under the power of the law by the act: it was an evangelistic measure so that more Jews would listen to Timothy. But it was not an obligation, because the New Testament believer is under grace, and Paul and Peter in Acts emphatically reject circumcision as an obligation.
 
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Tishri1

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Remember also that while shaul did not allow Titus to be circumsised he had Timothy circumsised. If it was only about being under the law why would he have Timothy circumsised? Traditional christian argument leave too many holes for me to be comfortable with that answer. Paul was saying that to be saved you do not have to become Jewish first and while we are under grace Yeshua says that if you love me you will obey my commandments. He also said he came to fulfill it not to abolish it and shaul himself said many times he did not teach against the Torah.
Perhaps there were two things going on
Try looking for two agendas, two political groups one heritage group

We have let's say one political group that believes you have to follow the Shammie version of the law that believes you have to give government all power and government has laws to be apart of your heritage group ....the same laws exist in the other political group but they mean something else entirely in this group

And then the other political group Hallie says your free to follow their laws but you don't have to do them to join your Heritage group. No pressure to join your already in ...just please don't use that law to join because you do not have to

Group one says noooo your not part of them unless you do these laws

Group two says your apart of us whether you do this or not
Do it because you want to not have to.
 
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Alithis

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Where is your heart and soul leading you ....do that !
We circumcised both our boys before we were MJ just as a symbol of being Christian. If that's not what is done today in the church then boy have times changed!!! I just knew it was right to do... to be a sign thru-out their lives that they belonged to God.
Plus it's healthier for them and their wives :)

it has health benefits...
end.
 
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Tishri1

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Please forgive me if that can across harsh I did not mean it to be so. I posted this in the messianic forum because I am seeking council from brothers and sisters who have similar convictions as myself. I appreciate your desire to give me biblically sound advice. Peace and blessings.

I am not offended at all i want you to do what you want to do

If its circumcision for your baby boy, do it! If its not, thats ok too. If you do the thing that brings peace and joy you will be just fine:clap:

I know from experience;)
 
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etZion

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So basically I am a gentile with messianic theology thanks to FFOZ, and we follow the whole divine invitation thing,that is as gentiles we believe we are invited to participate in the Torah, but it is not required. we celebrate shabbat but only on friday nights,we haven't worked our way into Saturdays at all, we try to recognize the holidays, we eat kosher in the home in terms that we stay away from unclean meats, but we do not pay attention to the method of killing the animal because of our insistence on grassfed- no hormones or antibiotic and only organic convictions. Our theology is messianic, but we attend a regular christian church and fellowship mostly with Christians who don't get it. I have a son coming any day now and I am seriously having trouble with circumcision and whether it is appropriate for our son. It is hard because we don't fully keep Torah, we feel distinctly gentile and we don't plan to change that, we feel our call is to help bridge the gap between messianic Jews and Christians. We don't have any concern about trusting in circumcision, as Shaul says it is nothing, but it is also symbolic of wanting to have a child who is set apart for God, Abraham was circumcised before the Torah, and so we are thinking it might be something for us to do also. I do know that there are many in the Jewish community who are sensitive to messianic gentiles virtually pretending or defrauding people to think that they are messianic jews you know that who two house theology thing. I am praying totally lost on what to do, I go back and forth. I am also concerned that according to Torah I should not be celebrating Passover with my son if he is not circumcised. Thoughts??? any are appreciated.

Absolutely, if you believe in keeping God's commandments. I am also a gentile, a dirty one, :p. I was circumcised the 8th day, before Messianic Judaism existed, at least in the way it is referred to today. My Mom, felt that she was to obey that command. I also have carried this on and circumcised my son on the 8th day.

I truly believe this is the right thing to do and I personally, would rather error on the side of obedience, than disobedience.

Also, someone asked a similar question on this topic a few weeks ago, being that I enjoy this topic, I engaged. Check out this thread:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7825938/

And if you have any questions, feel free to ask.
 
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ChavaK

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I also believe if I choose not to it is equally justified an honoring to G-d to recognize my place and my children's place in the role of a gentile believer and it is honoring to my true Jewish brethren not to and it respects their tradition as I am not a Jewish convert nor are my children .


My own view is no, you do not have to circumcise him. However, only you can make that decision. The answers given by others here will hopefully help you decide.

Just remember that many others besides Jews circumcise their children. If you choose to do it,it does not mean you are intruding into Jewish traditions.
 
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Dave-W

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Well - there are circumcisions and there are circumcisions. Secular/medical and ritual. They are not the same. Normative Judaism understands this. One is a medical proceedure and the other a covenantal act.

There is (per Acts 15) broad liberty in the faith walk of the gentile. But all us gentiles have an opportunity to participate in Torah. (as FFOZ recently discovered)

Rav Shaul warns that "every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law." Galatians 5:3

I would be hesitant in ritual circ for this very reason. You (as a gentile) may feel a call to be "K'rov Yisrael" (called near to Israel) but it is certainly possible that your son may NOT have that same calling.

I would suggest having the medical circ and when he is past bar mitzvah age let him make the choice if he wants to continue in the Messianc community (when a ritual circ would take place) or not. The ritual part means just drawing a single drop of blood. (not too traumatic)
 
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