Should Howard say sorry?

[lmnop9876]

I think actually making it compulsory to learn Aboriginal history is important. I remember when we did as part of Modern History and everyone just groaned...

Well so we should...we should be ashamed of what was done to them in the past. We should at least recognise and acknowledge what happened at teach it.

I do agree that this is necessary.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

I think actually making it compulsory to learn Aboriginal history is important. I remember when we did as part of Modern History and everyone just groaned...

Well so we should...we should be ashamed of what was done to them in the past. We should at least recognise and acknowledge what happened at teach it.

"in the past" being the operative term

 

[daas]

Mothy, that is a gross generalisation without any supporting facts. You shouldn't apologise for saying it (and it didn't need to be said), you should apologise for being ignorant, and not say anymore.

 

[GodsoldierClintus]

"in the past" being the operative term

If white Australians had been treated the way Aborigines have they would be calling foul and declare their past shall be remembered. Yet somehow it's okay when its the other way around. For shame. Just because it's in the past doesn't mean it didn't happen. And just because it's in the past doesn't mean it doesn't have an effect on the Aboriginals today. There are ramifications about what an apology would mean, but at the very least, it should be recognized it happened, and we should move on from there.

Bearing in my it was only a little over 100 years ago, just because we are not personally responsible for it doesn't mean we don't acknowledge it didn't happen.

For all of John Howard's nationalist prattling about our history, there is very little of it taught. Any average grade 12 student entering university would know next to nothing about our political system, and would know next to nothing about our colonial past. If history is so important as claimed - then why isn't it taught?

Any mention of Aboriginals in history is almost like a study of the American Indians - it's like they use to exist but don't anymore.

 

[Trogdor the Burninator]

While we’re talking apologies – does anyone know why the apology suddenly became so important just while John Howard was in power?
Even assuming that nothing was going to happen until after the 1967 referendum, there have been quite a few governments in power since then. Why didn’t they say sorry?

 

[Nooj]

Reconciliation efforts really started to kick off around the 90s.

The public needed more time and several more events like the Mabo case for the idea to really get stuck in the head that yes, Aboriginal people are a part of Australia. Before then, it just wasn't the right time.

 

[ebia]

It's not an admission of guilt. It is the patronising sympathy that I dislike. If it's not your fault, why are you sorry for it? We don't need people, let alone the Government, to feel sorry for us. We need people to recognise us and respect us and our rights as the original inhabitants of this country. Acknowledge the past, yes. Express regret for what has happened in the past, yes. Show a desire to work together for the future, yes. But sympathy is not going to get us anywhere at all.

Perhaps empathy would be better than sympathy? A will to understand your problems, and a desire to do something about them.

 

[ebia]

^ Norbie:
The amount of compensation required should never be a disincentive to any person or organisation to apologise for their past wrongs.

Absolutely.

...
That said, as an Aboriginal person, I do not think that the Federal Government (rather than politicians personally) should say sorry. There's two kinds of sorry. There's "we're sorry that we did this." and there's "we're sorry that this happened to you." Given that the Parliament is dissolved before each election, I do not think that it is the right or responsibility of a current or future Parliament to assume guilt on the behalf of a past Parliament or Parliaments and give the first "sorry."

I understand what you are saying, but such an apology would be on behalf of the nation. The government would be doing so as the representative of the nation. As such, it should actually be the Governor General on the instruction of those elected with a mandate to so instruct him that does it.

In additon, sorry implies guilt, which in turn implies conscience, something which a transitory Parliament cannot be said to maintain over time. The second "sorry" is of absolutely no value to Aboriginal people whatsoever, and sure, the Government, whether Labor or Liberal, can give that if they like, but, a. it sounds like patronisation and sympathy to me, and, b. it will have no practical benefits for Aboriginal people in terms of achieving self-determination and equal living standards to other Australians.

Maybe saying "sorry", like any decent confession, is as much for "our" benefit as yours. It's about formally acknowledging that what was done was wrong and the harm it has caused (and, for that matter, the ways in which white-australia still benefits from it). Again, like any meaningful confession, it should be the gateway to change - not to do anything similar again and to put right what we can put right, including explicity all you have set out below:

What I do think is needed is an official statement from the Government that expresses (though is not limited to) the following:
a. Recognition of the fact that Indigenous people were here first and have special rights as the original inhabitants of this country.

Could you elaborate on "special rights"?

b. Recognition of the fact that European settlement in this country was not, for the most part, peaceful, but was invasive and ignored the rights of Aboriginal peoples.

c. Recognition of the fact that thousands of Aboriginal lives were lost through violence, introduced diseases, and the ongoing effects of European policies regarding Aboriginal peoples.

d. Recognition and regret for the fact that the Australian nation for 67 years did not give Aboriginal people the rights of citizens of this country.

(and effectively labelled them as less than human).

e. Recognition and regret of the fact that Federal Government policies were created that directly and unfairly targeted Aboriginal people, and, although perhaps well-intentioned, were often carried out in an unfair or harmful manner by unscrupulous officials and employees of the Federal Government.

f. Recognition and respect for the rights of Indigenous peoples to maintain their own cultures, to maintain links to, ownership of, and control over their traditonal lands, and the right to determine how best and most effectively to deliver services (including, but not limited to health, education & training, justice, housing, and employment) to Aboriginal people, particularly those living on Aboriginal lands.

(depending exactly what you mean by "...ownership of, and control over their traditonal lands,..."

g. Recognition of the fact that while the regretful events of the past have occurred, it is time now to put the past behind us, learn from our mistakes, and move forward as a united, reconciled nation, where oneness does not have to mean sameness, where all cultures are welcomed and respected, and where we all work together for the betterment of this country in a spirit of respect, national pride, and unity.

When this occurs, we will all be able to truly sing "Advance Australia Fair."

Or maybe something better ::ducks::

 

[ebia]

"in the past" being the operative term

Is it? In a rich country that remains complacent about the fact that some of it's population are living in conditions that many 3rd world countries would be ashamed of, I'm not convinced it is all in the past.

 

[Nooj]

Or maybe something better ::ducks::

Maybe we should take Adam Hill's suggestion of playing Advance Australia Fair to the tune of Working Class Man.

 

[lmnop9876]

Maybe saying "sorry", like any decent confession, is as much for "our" benefit as yours. It's about formally acknowledging that what was done was wrong and the harm it has caused (and, for that matter, the ways in which white-australia still benefits from it). Again, like any meaningful confession, it should be the gateway to change - not to do anything similar again and to put right what we can put right, including explicity all you have set out below:

well an apology that serves only to appease white guilt is not going to benefit Aboriginal people whatsoever. if it makes white people feel better about themselves, and perhaps even makes some Aboriginal people feel better about themselves (note I am talking here about a blanket apology to all Aboriginal people and not apologies to specific people for policies that affected them such as the Stolen Generation or Stolen Wages), then sure, say how sorry you are that the past has happened.

Could you elaborate on "special rights"?

Indigenous rights as defined by the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples.

(depending exactly what you mean by "...ownership of, and control over their traditonal lands,..."

(My opinion about this probably differs from many more conservative Aboriginal activists such as Mick Dodson, Noel Pearson, or Warren Mundine, but also agrees with many activists including Mick Mansell, Gary Foley, & others).
What I mean is that Australia needs to establish treaties with Aboriginal nations that acknowledge that Aboriginal peoples, firstly, still have full ownership and sovereignty over this entire continent, and, secondly, are free to exercise said sovereignty in whatever way we see fit. In practical terms, such a treaty would involve Aboriginal peoples ceding sovereignty over all privately owned land (without any expectation of compensation) and over all Crown land currently in public use (with an expectation of compensation for unpaid rent and Aboriginal people giving up ownership of the land [unless it is a sacred or significant site] for a reasonable amount of compensation), and Aboriginal people retaining ownership of all unused Crown land (with an expectation of compensation for unpaid rent, except where land has already been returned through Native Title or Land Rights legislation, and with Aboriginal people retaining the right to negotiate with Governments and private organisations and individuals as to how that land will best be used to benefit Aboriginal peoples). Aboriginal peoples would retain the right to determine to what extent they wished to exercise their sovereignty. People object that this would effectively divide the country into two along a race division. I do not agree. White people would be welcome to live and work in black communities, and vice-versa, so long as both recognised and respected the laws and cultural values that applied where they were. All would remain citizens of Australia with all the rights and privileges of a citizen, If anything, it would help to end the almost apartheid-like conditions that exist in much of Australia and work towards true reconciliation.
Radical? Yes. Expensive? Yes (although in the long term no more expensive than the Government continuing to attempt to provide services to Aboriginal people and often failing dismally). But it is also practical, and it would mean that Australia finally recognises that mistakes were made in the past, and it is time to right those wrongs and build this country on the basis of respect for Aboriginal peoples.

 

[lmnop9876]

Or maybe something better ::ducks::

personally I dislike the melody and don't think it suits a national anthem. but if it's going to be used, we need to make sure it's true for all Australians. When Australia truly is young, free, and fair, then I will agree to sing the national anthem.

 

[ebia]

Indigenous rights as defined by the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples.

For those of us not familiar with that document, perhaps you could give a rough outline?

(My opinion about this probably differs from many more conservative Aboriginal activists such as Mick Dodson, Noel Pearson, or Warren Mundine, but also agrees with many activists including Mick Mansell, Gary Foley, & others).
What I mean is that Australia needs to establish treaties with Aboriginal nations that acknowledge that Aboriginal peoples, firstly, still have full ownership and sovereignty over this entire continent, and, secondly, are free to exercise said sovereignty in whatever way we see fit. In practical terms, such a treaty would involve Aboriginal peoples ceding sovereignty over all privately owned land (without any expectation of compensation) and over all Crown land currently in public use (with an expectation of compensation for unpaid rent and Aboriginal people giving up ownership of the land [unless it is a sacred or significant site] for a reasonable amount of compensation), and Aboriginal people retaining ownership of all unused Crown land (with an expectation of compensation for unpaid rent, except where land has already been returned through Native Title or Land Rights legislation, and with Aboriginal people retaining the right to negotiate with Governments and private organisations and individuals as to how that land will best be used to benefit Aboriginal peoples). Aboriginal peoples would retain the right to determine to what extent they wished to exercise their sovereignty. People object that this would effectively divide the country into two along a race division. I do not agree. White people would be welcome to live and work in black communities, and vice-versa, so long as both recognised and respected the laws and cultural values that applied where they were. All would remain citizens of Australia with all the rights and privileges of a citizen, If anything, it would help to end the almost apartheid-like conditions that exist in much of Australia and work towards true reconciliation.
Radical? Yes. Expensive? Yes (although in the long term no more expensive than the Government continuing to attempt to provide services to Aboriginal people and often failing dismally). But it is also practical, and it would mean that Australia finally recognises that mistakes were made in the past, and it is time to right those wrongs and build this country on the basis of respect for Aboriginal peoples.

Thanks. That all sounds appropriate if I've read it correctly.

 

[ebia]

personally I dislike the melody and don't think it suits a national anthem. but if it's going to be used, we need to make sure it's true for all Australians. When Australia truly is young, free, and fair, then I will agree to sing the national anthem.

I knew what you meant (and agree), I just couldn't resist having a dig.

 

[lmnop9876]

For those of us not familiar with that document, perhaps you could give a rough outline?

From the website of the International Work Group for Indigenous Affairs:

The text recognises the wide range of basic human rights and fundamental freedoms of indigenous peoples. Among these are the right to unrestricted self-determination, an inalienable collective right to the ownership, use and control of lands, territories and other natural resources, their rights in terms of maintaining and developing their own political, religious, cultural and educational institutions along with the protection of their cultural and intellectual property. The Declaration highlights the requirement for prior and informed consultation, participation and consent in activities of any kind that impact on indigenous peoples, their property or territories. It also establishes the requirement for fair and adequate compensation for violation of the rights recognised in the Declaration and establishes guarantees against ethnocide and genocide.

The Declaration also provides for fair and mutually acceptable procedures to resolve conflicts between indigenous peoples and States, including procedures such as negotiations, mediation, arbitration, national courts and international and regional mechanisms for denouncing and examining human rights violations.

http://www.iwgia.org/sw356.asp

 

[ebia]

From the website of the International Work Group for Indigenous Affairs:
http://www.iwgia.org/sw356.asp

Thanks.

 

[icedtea]

saw the title and thought you meant me.

Sorry.

 

[tgg]

Howard is definitely going to be sorry when he loses the election.

 

[norbie]

Howard is definitely going to be sorry when he loses the election.

But it won't be easy- Kevin needs to win 20 seats!