Should flag burners lose citizenship?

Do you agree with the president elect's tweet?


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LouisBooth

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No one can give consent for children to be abused
that's your point of view and not a legal definition. Sorry, can't just have it your way on both fronts. I think you fail to grasp this example, we can move to another, killing and cutting up a dog that you gave away...say a puppy. The problem is YOU'RE implying a morality. Now, I agree with that morality, but the problem is it's morality, and that can be extended to flag burning as well or any thing tagged as "art".
 
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GoldenBoy89

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I have been very clear: I was referring to symbolic acts of burning. As such, it is clear that fire intended for warmth was not at issue.
Fire and burning do not always symbolize destruction.

For example, this:


Is a song about love.
 
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morningstar2651

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I know that soldiers were brought into this discussion earlier.

Soldiers don't fight in wars and die for a piece of cloth - they fight to protect the freedoms that cloth represents, including the freedom to burn that piece of cloth. Taking that freedom away makes a mockery of the sacrifices that our armed forces have made protecting our freedoms.

As Americans, we should be much more offended and threatened by our government wanting to take away our freedoms or rights than of someone burning a piece of cloth that symbolizes those rights and freedoms.
 
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RDKirk

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In its most simple definition, art is human expression through different forms of communication. Be they, music, painting or drawing, writing, whether it's creative stories or poems or even song lyrics, or it can even be physical expression like dance or acting and other types of performances, much like putting on a magic act in a tv show where you literally burn an American flag to express and communicate the figurative concept that our rights are greater than the symbols we use to represent them. The idea that even though the representative symbol of our rights may have been destroyed, the rights themselves (the important part) remain. Even if the declaration of independence and the constitution were destroyed in a fire (not that I think they should be), the rights themselves would remain because we still believe in them

My definition of art is: Intentional expression of human emotion through human sensory media. My intention is to exclude communication of pure data or information (is a weather satellite an artist? I don't want to include that), and to include communication of non-information such as anger or indignance, as well as to include all means of sensory communication.

Thus, a stand-up comic is an artist because he deliberately uses his verbal media to induce laughter (perhaps make them think as well, but the laughter has to come first). A good comic does it the way Babe Ruth called his home runs and the way Muhammad Ali called his knockouts.

That is the entire essence of inalienable rights that people miss when they decide to defend symbols like a flag over the rights themselves that the symbol represents. That because we choose to hold them as true, they can never be taken away or destroyed, no matter what people do to the flag.

One thing to remember, btw, is that conceptual entities do not have rights--beings have rights. I have to go Godwin on this point, but a major factor of the Hitler-Mussolini theory of fascism is that the nation is an organic entity in itself (the Volk--the Volkprinzip) with its own will (embodied by one particular individual, the Fuhrer--the Fuhrerprinzip) and thus as an organic willful entity it has rights that supersede the rights of the individual.

The Constitution carries the idea that citizens have non-enumerated rights and that citizens convey certain enumerated powers to government. That's why the government does not have, for instance, copyright of anything produced by government employees.

Thus, the flag is a symbol of an entity that that has no rights.
 
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RDKirk

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I know that soldiers were brought into this discussion earlier.

Soldiers don't fight in wars and die for a piece of cloth - they fight to protect the freedoms that cloth represents, including the freedom to burn that piece of cloth. Taking that freedom away makes a mockery of the sacrifices that our armed forces have made protecting our freedoms.

Well, if you ask a soldier in the moment he's actually under fire what he's fighting for, he's likely to get no more esoteric than "I'm fighting for my buddies."
 
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RDKirk

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I looked up Penn & Teller on Wiki, it says they're a magic act. Doesn't say they're artists. No one in the video claimed what they did was art.

And yet, their act is copyrighted with the US government as a creative work.
 
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RDKirk

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Again, I believe I have been very clear: my assertions about fire as the ultimate force of destruction and chaos were specifically directed at cases of symbolic burning.

So what was the case of the burning of the atonement sacrifice for ancient Jews? Was that for purification or for destruction and chaos?
 
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LouisBooth

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As Americans, we should be much more offended and threatened by our government wanting to take away our freedoms or rights than of someone burning a piece of cloth that symbolizes those rights and freedoms.

And yet, their act is copyrighted with the US government as a creative work.
I'm not sure that's exactly true. They can have their show copied. None of the things they do are copyrighted? I'd truly be interested in that answer. I apologize for the sidebar.
 
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morningstar2651

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Time for a quick intellectual property law lesson - the government's creations are public domain. They do not enforce copyright on their works (though there are a few exceptions)

https://www.usa.gov/government-works
 
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morningstar2651

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I'm not sure that's exactly true. They can have their show copied. None of the things they do are copyrighted? I'd truly be interested in that answer. I apologize for the sidebar.
What are you asking about copyright? I'm not sure I understand your question.
 
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LouisBooth

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What are you asking about copyright? I'm not sure I understand your question.
Can Penn and Tell's show not be duplicated (the show not the exact material ie, names, exact image duplication, etc..) under copyright law? If I do X action and call it a performance, can it be copyrighted? I would expect this to be a no.
 
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morningstar2651

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Can Penn and Tell's show not be duplicated (the show not the exact material ie, names, exact image duplication, etc..) under copyright law? If I do X action and call it a performance, can it be copyrighted? I would expect this to be a no.
The Copyright Act of 1976 grants five rights to a copyright owner:
  • the right to reproduce the copyrighted work
  • the right to prepare derivative works based upon the work
  • the right to distribute copies of the work to the public
  • the right to perform the copyrighted work publicly
  • the right to display the copyrighted work publicly
 
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LouisBooth

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the right to perform the copyrighted work publicly
Then it's only a half truth. The exact way they do a trick is copyrighted, not the actual trick. I'd be curious as to see what is defined. I'd simply copyright burning a flag and then no one could do it in public LOL.
 
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Desk trauma

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Then it's only a half truth. The exact way they do a trick is copyrighted, not the actual trick. I'd be curious as to see what is defined. I'd simply copyright burning a flag and then no one could do it in public LOL.

Patent trolling to prevent speech you disapprove of. Interesting.
 
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morningstar2651

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LouisBooth

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Their act falls under copyright, but how the trick is performed would most likely be a trade secret.
Probably the actual Device, not the act. Again making me question what a performance means...
this is from that page posted, "the processes or movements required for a trick are not copyrightable within the U.S, but recordings" So There ya go, the trick cannot be copyrighted, only Penn and Teller preforming the that trick is copyrighted. Their performance, not the trick. Am I misunderstanding?
 
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