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Should flag burners lose citizenship?

Discussion in 'American Politics' started by morningstar2651, Nov 29, 2016.

  1. Strongly Agree

    6.3%
  2. Agree

    3.8%
  3. Neutral

    6.3%
  4. Disagree

    8.9%
  5. Strongly Disagree

    74.7%
  1. GoldenBoy89

    GoldenBoy89 We're Still Here

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    Actually, yeah... You kind of can. Anything can be an artistic expression under the right context and to the right audience.
     
  2. LoAmmi

    LoAmmi Dispassionate

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    Kind of hilarious we've been baited into spending several days talking about flag burning, something very few people ever even talked about before Monday, instead of the other issues going on.
     
  3. psalms 91

    psalms 91 Legend

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    Personally I dont think anyone should
     
  4. Chesterton

    Chesterton Whats So Funny bout Peace Love and Understanding Supporter

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    The government prohibits me from expressing myself by punching you in the nose for example.
    Because it's not.
    Why are you asking for art to be defined in a thread about flag-burning? Define pizza.
     
  5. GoldenBoy89

    GoldenBoy89 We're Still Here

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    You said flag burning is not art and in most cases, I might agree with that. But you'd be hard pressed to find a definition of art that didn't include self expression as part of that definition. Which, setting a flag on fire can certainly fall under self expression.
     
  6. Veritas

    Veritas 1 Lord, 1 Faith, 1 Baptism

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    The real question is, why would flag burners WANT to be citizens? If they hate the country so much, they should leave.
     
  7. GoldenBoy89

    GoldenBoy89 We're Still Here

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    Perhaps they already are citizens? Just a thought....

    If they were born in the US, where should they go and why would they have to go anywhere to begin with?

    I'll never understand the sentiment that people who don't like the US should just leave. That can just as easily be turned around to the people who don't like flag burning. If freedom bothers you so much, maybe you should be the one to leave the "Land O' the Free."
     
  8. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    I object to your objection, so considering you object, you should stop objecting.
     
  9. TLK Valentine

    TLK Valentine You will be who you will be. We are our choices.

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    In certain contexts, this is true -- we call it "assault."

    In other contexts:

    [​IMG]

    Why not?

    Why are you waffling on it?

    A baked round flatbread food, commonly served with tomato sauce and mozzarella cheese.

    Now, art, please?
     
  10. TLK Valentine

    TLK Valentine You will be who you will be. We are our choices.

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    So between the right of self-expression and the use of art as a tool for peaceful protest, the definition of "art" very much is relevant.
     
  11. GoldenBoy89

    GoldenBoy89 We're Still Here

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    Not so nice when it's turned back around to you, is it?
     
  12. Chesterton

    Chesterton Whats So Funny bout Peace Love and Understanding Supporter

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    Boxing. Wow you'll go to any lengths reaching for a point you can't actually make.
    Because in the entire history of humanity, across all cultures of every continent, you probably won't find a single instance of people considering the burning of the American flag as art. If you do find an instance of it, then those people were r-worded [bless and do not curse].
    What have I waffled on? I said something on page 1 and haven't wavered a bit.
    Tell my why I should when it's not relevant to the thread. Are you also going to claim that the founding fathers meant to encode "freedom of art" but just forgot to write it down? You already have a definition of speech which is what is actually guaranteed.
     
  13. GoldenBoy89

    GoldenBoy89 We're Still Here

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    Here's one instance of the flag being destroyed artistically by Penn and Teller on television, to make a very specific point. I do hope you have 5 minutes to spare to watch the video and tell me what you think of their point.



    There's also this article I found about exactly that bit they did. I found this part to be most relevant.



    Art is speech. Art is expression and expression cannot be limited by the government unless it starts to cut into the rights of others. That's not something I made up, there is legal precedent from our country's highest court's interpretation of our founding documents to back up that opinion.

    It is absolutely relevant to the point of this this thread but I can see why you'd rather avoid that aspect of it since it defeats your argument.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2016
  14. wing2000

    wing2000 E pluribus unum Supporter

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    Trump would be satisfied :)
     
  15. TLK Valentine

    TLK Valentine You will be who you will be. We are our choices.

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    What -- it's people punching each other in the nose... perfectly legal.

    Interesting excuse you've got there -- it never happened, but if it did, it doesn't count because the people who did were.... what? say it.

    Definition of art.

    So art is not protected by your definition of the First Amendment? The government can censor art if it chooses to, according to you?

    believe that, and flag burning is the least of your problems.
     
  16. Gene2memE

    Gene2memE Newbie

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    I expect to see more and more of these outrageous Tweets by Mr Trump, as a distraction tactic. It worked through the election campaign, and its only by diligence and careful scrutiny that the US public will be able to look past this confidence style trickery over the next four years.

    An interesting video:



    Why is this thread 35 or 40 pages long?
    Where are the 30+ page threads on his sprawling business empire, involving his children and wife in initial meetings in his role as president-elect, the bizarre and unsuitable choices he's made for secretary positions?

    Distract, misdirect, dissemble and divert.
     
  17. Chesterton

    Chesterton Whats So Funny bout Peace Love and Understanding Supporter

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    I looked up Penn & Teller on Wiki, it says they're a magic act. Doesn't say they're artists. No one in the video claimed what they did was art.
    Here's the definition the framers would have known, from an 1828 Webster's American Dictionary of the English Language:

    SPEECH, noun

    1. The faculty of uttering articulate sounds or words, as in human beings; the faculty of expressing thoughts by words or articulate sounds. speech was given to man by his Creator for the noblest purposes.

    2. Language; words as expressing ideas. The acts of God to human ears cannot without process of speech be told.

    3. A particular language, as distinct form others. Psalms 19:2.

    4. That which is spoken; words uttered in connection and expressing thoughts. You smile at my speech

    5. Talk; mention; common saying. The duke did of me demand, what was the speech among the londoners concerning the French journey.

    6. Formal discourse in public; oration; harangue. The member has made his first speech in the legislature.​


    It's as if I said "it's illegal to print money" and you respond "but the U.S. Mint does it". Whatever.
    There's at least one mod that doesn't care for the word, but the people would be "slow or limited in intellectual or emotional development" -Webster's New Collegiate
    Regarding art I haven't said anything to waffle about, in spite of the fact that you are desperately wanting to discuss art in a thread about flag-burning. :D
    I said no such thing. Don't put words in my mouth.
     
  18. Desk trauma

    Desk trauma Atheist Capitalist Supporter

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    Both of them would do so very vehemently if questioned as they both have given a great deal of thought to the nature of art and speak frequently about it.
     
  19. variant

    variant Happy Cat

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    It could, but in a free country you need a good reason to make something illegal, not a good reason to have things be legal.

    Flag burning may or may not be art but it is certainly protest/dissent, and protest/dissent is the core idea of the first amendment.
     
  20. Chesterton

    Chesterton Whats So Funny bout Peace Love and Understanding Supporter

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    I've thought and spoken about art myself, doesn't make me an artist. But okay, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. After all I'm sure Las Vegas is second only to Renaissance Italy when it comes to great artistic achievement.
     
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