Should Christians stop saying homosexuality is a sin if it increases suicide?

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RDKirk

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I think the reasoning is that religious groups are among those creating the "stigma" by teaching that homosexual behavior is sinful and thereby contributing to the high suicide rate.

ACR-99 "The stigma associated with being LGBTQ often created by groups in society, including therapists and religious groups, has caused disproportionately high rates of suicide, attempted suicide, depression, rejection, and isolation amongst LGBTQ and questioning individuals".

In the old Roman Empire, a homosexual was considered the person who took the "female position." A legionary who took the "male position" in a homosexual act was okay. A legionary who took the "female position" was executed. While homosexuality was tolerated, there was no acceptance of the concept of a "homosexual marriage," and men who were homosexuals were not permitted the full range of priviledges of a Roman citizen.

So the stigma did not result from Christianity. It has always been there.

I don't accept the accusation.
 
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paul1149

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The catalyst for this question is the recent Californian Assembly Concurrent Resolution (ACR) 99
"The resolution, ACR-99, Civil Rights: Lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender people, urges counselors, pastors, churches, educators, and others to avoid supporting the historic Christian view of sexual ethics. The measure says such support can result in "disproportionately high" rates of suicide, attempted suicide, and depression among persons who identify as LGBT."
The Christian Post
In Great Britain and Canada it's already illegal to speak out publicly against homosexuality. People have been arrested for merely doing so on social media. This law and others like it will undoubtedly be used as a stepping-stone to the same end. There currently is a massive, multifaceted assault on freedom of speech.

As for a poster's charge that Christians single out homosexuality, of course there is some truth to it, but overall it's laughable.In any forum I've been a part of most of the homosexuality posts are by outsiders challenging our views, not us putting down homosexuality. Look at the change in society over the past three decades. We're basically in defense mode.
 
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lsume

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I am not raising the question of whether homosexual activities are sinful. I am addressing the situation of whether saying so publicly causes LGBT people to self harm.

The catalyst for this question is the recent Californian Assembly Concurrent Resolution (ACR) 99
"The resolution, ACR-99, Civil Rights: Lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender people, urges counselors, pastors, churches, educators, and others to avoid supporting the historic Christian view of sexual ethics. The measure says such support can result in "disproportionately high" rates of suicide, attempted suicide, and depression among persons who identify as LGBT."
The Christian Post

Also relevant is this video which was made in the context of a sports star here in Australia quoting 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 on his Instagram account and being fired.

Please read Romans 1 in The KJV. Also, in 2Timothy 3 you should find an intense description of end times behavior. Things are spiraling out of control but you can only See it if Christ opens your eyes to See. You might look for a major mystery to be revealed by looking for specific Scripture where Christ Speaks of Hearing The Word. That is a very special place to be indeed. When Christ opens your eyes and ears to Hear and See, that is when you will absolutely know that Christ is The Only Begotten Son of God. When He visits you as a thief in the night, ultimately you must know The Fear of The Lord. His Perfect Love casts away fear but first you must know that Fear. Please consider this to be Truth and seek it out. Please at least consider this to be Truth.
 
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archarios

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As for a poster's charge that Christians single out homosexuality, of course there is some truth to it,

Hearing that charge, as we all have heard it for years and years and years, just makes me laugh in befuddlement now. It's supposed to imply that Christians are obsessed with homosexuality. Its supposed to imply that if Christians never mentioned anything about homosexuality, the gays would never speak a peep about it either.

Some people also want to imply that Christians are all constantly on the verge of letting the other shoe drop, tearing off their business suits and ankle-length dresses to reveal klan robes, and lynching a whole bunch of gays for fun, as if Christianity is instead a hunting club.

Of course, the real reason Christians talk about it so much is because the world talks about it ten times as much.
 
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Perhaps if we mention that as part of the fall from Adam and Eve that everyone is sexually broken...and we mention other forms of sexual sin aside from homosexuality, they wont feel like theyre being singled out
 
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creslaw

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If you don't point out sin, or define it, then you cannot express why people might have need of a savior in the first place.

If you can't point out persistent, ongoing sin, you can't ask people to examine whether or not they truly belong to Christ, or whether they may find themselves in the Lord Lord group.

A truncated gospel does no one any good. If people commit suicide because they, like all of us, are sinners, that's not the fault of God.

When we, as sinners, face for the first time the fullness of our sin, some of us are more like the Ninevites of Jonah's day in that we feel sorrow for our sin and repent. Others might fall short in repentance but continue in their efforts to do right, and still others may find repentance too difficult and walk away..

but how many just kill themselves, and is it a healthy response to hearing that a God you don't follow or don't believe in might not accept you in His presence in the afterlife?

I'd posit that anyone who became morose to the point of suicide, instead of being in the first three categories has mental health issues that we, as passersby, are in no way responsible for. .

You can't hold the general population responsible for the individual mental health issues of the smallest minority, when no one believes what they believe in order to hurt another person.

It is interesting that in the Netherlands, recognized as one of the most tolerant countries for LGBT people, anxiety, depression and suicide are still much higher than among the general population. In fact it now has a name: the Dutch paradox.

The dynamics at work are hard to fathom ... but I think LGBT ideology which stresses that anyone experiencing same sex feelings must embrace a homosexual identity because they are born that way and so can never have a "normal" life, induces a sense of hopelessness among adolescents that can lead to self harm. Needless to say that theory is not popular with gay activists!
 
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Maria Billingsley

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I am not raising the question of whether homosexual activities are sinful. I am addressing the situation of whether saying so publicly causes LGBT people to self harm.

The catalyst for this question is the recent Californian Assembly Concurrent Resolution (ACR) 99
"The resolution, ACR-99, Civil Rights: Lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender people, urges counselors, pastors, churches, educators, and others to avoid supporting the historic Christian view of sexual ethics. The measure says such support can result in "disproportionately high" rates of suicide, attempted suicide, and depression among persons who identify as LGBT."
The Christian Post

Also relevant is this video which was made in the context of a sports star here in Australia quoting 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 on his Instagram account and being fired.

I believe they are against "conversion therapy".Conversion therapy - Wikipedia This practice is wrong and dangerous to children. It is also not the least bit loving or scriptural. Only the Holy Spirit converts. We can stand with our values however not all people who say they are Christian are Christian. Any person engaging in homosexual activity and believes it is fine to do so does not love God. But we do not take matters in our own hands and torture these individuals until they commit suicide.
No matter how one views the same sex issue, love needs to surround the individuals who struggle with their sexuality. God tests us. Do we have empathy? Are we leaders to help those who are in need with love and understanding? Do we gently guild those in need towards righteousness? Hippocracy abounds in congregations. One unmarried man and woman and one same sex couple are committing the same sin "fornication". If both couples practiced celibacy then they love God. God will recognize a marriage between a man and woman but He does not recognize one between the same sex. While one group can stop the sin through marriage, the other must remain celibate. This is what needs to be taught in "The Church" not conversion therapy.
Blessings
 
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devin553344

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Yes, I think it is fair to examine the claim that by saying homosexuality is a sin religious people are causing LGBT people, especially the young, to commit suicide in greater numbers. The Bible speaks of our conscience accusing or excusing us (Romans 2:15) so I think a deep seated feeling of being wrong is not generated only by external social prejudice, although I think bullying & ostracism can be contributing factors.

That is not a Christian stance. For instance, are you saying we should change the words in the bible or stop preaching the bible. The bible is clear on the stance against homosexuality, which is why promoting here on CF is against the forum rules.

The Bible and homosexuality - Wikipedia

I think the effort might better be placed in acceptance of the sinner by Christians and helping them to live a Christ-like life.
 
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Yennora

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A few points worth clearing out in my honest opinion:
  • Preaching Christ doesn't require us to go bash others for their sins. They have their psyche, they can open the Bible themselves. They can read it, and they can understand that particular behaviors are considered sin. They don't need a preacher to go tell them that (unless they ask for it explicitly). It is enough to lead them to the Bible -> if and only if -> they accept or want preaching in the first place. Otherwise, that's a violation of their freedom rights.

  • If a friend of mine, who is, on the edge of suicide, comes to me asking whether they will be in hell or not for practicing their homosexuality and I condemn them, then surely I'm the real evil here. Simply, morality is much more complex than a list of "yes's" and "no's". Let us remember when Christ broke the Sabbath to heal others. I think he wanted us to see clearly that God wants mercy not sacrifice. However, this doesn't mean approving homosexuality.

  • Saying that people are identified by their homosexuality is like saying people are identified by their pedophilia or paraphilia or OCD or schizophrenia or no matter what evil hits the brain or the body. No, they are not. But again, it is none of my business what they do. My duty is to promote the Bible through my actions. And on a personal level only if they ask for it. That is, I must not practice homosexuality, and I must not condemn others for practicing it. But if they come and ask me for guidance (in their full sanity), I should share the Bible with them. Other than that, everyone was created free.

  • In short? I'm not against homosexuals marrying and practicing their freedom. It is none of my business. I'm against them pushing their beliefs on me and on children. I'm against it when a person practices their freedom at the cost of others'. People are free so long as they don't interfere with other's freedom rights. If they want me to participate in celebrating/endorsing their beliefs in any way forcibly then I should revolt!

  • It is none of my business if same-sex marriage is legalized. However, IT IS my business if pedophilia is legalized. I will oppose the latter, even if it will require fighting to death. Children rights are not a joke. We don't practice our freedom at the cost of theirs. And here resides the difference between being a Pharisee and a human rights advocate.
 
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creslaw

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I believe they are against "conversion therapy".Conversion therapy - Wikipedia This practice is wrong and dangerous to children. It is also not the least bit loving or scriptural. Only the Holy Spirit converts. We can stand with our values however not all people who say they are Christian are Christian. Any person engaging in homosexual activity and believes it is fine to do so does not love God. But we do not take matters in our own hands and torture these individuals until they commit suicide.
No matter how one views the same sex issue, love needs to surround the individuals who struggle with their sexuality. God tests us. Do we have empathy? Are we leaders to help those who are in need with love and understanding? Do we gently guild those in need towards righteousness? Hippocracy abounds in congregations. One unmarried man and woman and one same sex couple are committing the same sin "fornication". If both couples practiced celibacy then they love God. God will recognize a marriage between a man and woman but He does not recognize one between the same sex. While one group can stop the sin through marriage, the other must remain celibate. This is what needs to be taught in "The Church" not conversion therapy.
Blessings
The LGBT community like to pick extreme examples of "conversion therapy" which is a term rarely used by Christian counselors, who mostly engage in talk therapy where goals are decided by the client and strategies decided collaboratively to address the issues.

I know Christians who have struggled with same sex attraction all their lives but continue to follow Christ and live according to His teachings on sexual morality. While I believe in deliverance, I know that sometimes God allows us to depend on Him to carry us through the difficult times. Legislating to make professional therapy illegal is an assault on freedom of choice and a denial that many people with ssa choose to marry and have a family, and for them the help of a Christian counselor can be very beneficial.
 
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Tropical Wilds

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I am not raising the question of whether homosexual activities are sinful. I am addressing the situation of whether saying so publicly causes LGBT people to self harm.

The catalyst for this question is the recent Californian Assembly Concurrent Resolution (ACR) 99
"The resolution, ACR-99, Civil Rights: Lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender people, urges counselors, pastors, churches, educators, and others to avoid supporting the historic Christian view of sexual ethics. The measure says such support can result in "disproportionately high" rates of suicide, attempted suicide, and depression among persons who identify as LGBT."
The Christian Post

Also relevant is this video which was made in the context of a sports star here in Australia quoting 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 on his Instagram account and being fired.


So I looked up the resolution, and nowhere does the quoted text above appear and at no point is it even implied. That resolution speaks against conversion therapy, forced or otherwise.

Did you read it? It calls upon religious leaders to be doing and treating the LGBTQ community as they should already be treating them...
 
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grasping the after wind

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I think it’s evident by the emphasis on this site, the media, and church sermons that some sins obtain significantly greater dialogue and focus than others. God addressed many issues in the bible but the ones most mentioned are abortion, homosexuality and politics.

I’ve grown increasingly weary of hearing the arguments and postulations and I’m a believer. I can only assume the same holds true for those within these circles.

It’s the absence of even handedness of biblical precepts that’s a turnoff. If we were fervent about God’s word in its entirety that’s one thing. But the cherry picking is nauseating and wholly hypocritical.

Perhaps the reason that homosexuality and abortion are so often mentioned by believers is that those engaging in those activities claim they are not sins at all while there are few that claim murder, theft, adultery etc. are actually not sins but natural and positive things to be celebrated.
 
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RDKirk

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If you don't point out sin, or define it, then you cannot express why people might have need of a savior in the first place.

If you can't point out persistent, ongoing sin, you can't ask people to examine whether or not they truly belong to Christ, or whether they may find themselves in the Lord Lord group.

That doesn't work and it's not the method Jesus modeled for us.

When we look at someone and see "sin" we think that's what we need to cudgel that person with. We see a prostitute on the street, and we run over and say, "You harlot! You need to repent of your whoring and come to Jesus!"

Notice the sequence: When we focus on the sin, the sequence is always to fix the sin first, then come to Jesus.

But Romans 6 tells us that fixing the sin is impossible before becoming a believer. Belief has to come first. Before that, the person is a slave to sin.

And we know that. We know that none of us had fully cleaned sin from our lives before we believed.

But when we assail the prostitute "You harlot!" the problem is that the sin we can see is the very sin that person has built the strongest bulwark of rationale to protect. That prostitute has constructed a thousand reasons why she must live that way, and rarely will that accusing Christian have an answer to them.

When Jesus approached the Samaritan woman at the well, He could have said at the outset, "You're a harlot." And she would have countered with the reasons why she lived as she did, and had no other choice.

Jesus didn't do that, though. We've probably all heard teaching about how the time and place the woman was drawing water indicated she was a social outcast--probably because of her sexual relationships. That was the point Jesus led with--the loneliness and ostricization that was exemplified by when and where she was forced by her sin.

“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.” -- Matthew 11

Jesus led with, essentially, "I know your problem--I am the fix for your problem."

Jesus said this:

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them....
....
He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them."
-- John 6

I don't know how many times I'd read that before its implication struck me. What this means is that God has already worked within every person who will accept the gospel. It's not our clever arguments or strident railing that does it.

People are walking around "enabled" to accept the gospel, and they don't even know it. I have met a number of people who had known they were missing something, and when they heard the gospel, they realized immediately, "That's it!"

We don't know who they are, either. We can't see it on them. But God has seen through their bulwarks of rationales and found what I call their "convicting sin"--and it won't usually be the sin we see from the outside.

They don't need to be told about their sin; that's what the Accuser does. Telling them they are sinners is not the gospel. It's the Holy Spirit's role to convict them of sin, not ours.

They need to be given the gospel: That's what Jesus does.

Those who have been enabled need nothing but the gospel.
 
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creslaw

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That is not a Christian stance. For instance, are you saying we should change the words in the bible or stop preaching the bible. The bible is clear on the stance against homosexuality, which is why promoting here on CF is against the forum rules.

The Bible and homosexuality - Wikipedia

I think the effort might better be placed in acceptance of the sinner by Christians and helping them to live a Christ-like life.
It seems you might have misunderstood my point. I am fully convinced of the traditional Christian view of homosexuality and that to practice homosexuality is a sin and I do not think that saying so causes suicide. However, saying so in a context of harsh condemnation rather than Christian love & correction, may have an effect on vulnerable youth.

I say this because I went through a period of sexual confusion in my early & mid teems and was suicidal, but thanks to a compassionate Catholic priest who did not condone homosexuality but kindly guided me through a difficult time until I matured sufficiently to marry and have a family.
 
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RDKirk

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Perhaps the reason that homosexuality and abortion are so often mentioned by believers is that those engaging in those activities claim they are not sins at all while there are few that claim murder, theft, adultery etc. are actually not sins but natural and positive things to be celebrated.

Although there are plenty of people sitting comfortably in the pews who commit adultery, fornication, slander, greed, envy, et cetera...and have no intention of stopping. And if you were to confront them with those sins, then they would tell you to mind your own business.

Those people are far more dangerous being within the Body of Christ than those unbelievers who are outside.

That's why Paul wrote:

I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people-- not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world.

But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.

What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
-- 1 Corinthians 5
 
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Yennora

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Perhaps the reason that homosexuality and abortion are so often mentioned by believers is that those engaging in those activities claim they are not sins at all while there are few that claim murder, theft, adultery etc. are actually not sins but natural and positive things to be celebrated.

Remember that they still have choice to accept or reject the Bible. The Bible says woe to that who calls evil good and good evil. The Bible is there, they can read it if they want. However, if they chose to reject the Bible and call good evil and evil good then that's none of our business as Christians. They rejected the message and they are free to do so. It becomes our business when they start hurting children or violating others rights or pushing their beliefs on others. Because we are meant to advocate for human rights, not only as Christians but as humans. Freedom is a right to everyone.
 
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devin553344

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It seems you might have misunderstood my point. I am fully convinced of the traditional Christian view of homosexuality and that to practice homosexuality is a sin and I do not think that saying so causes suicide. However, saying so in a context of harsh condemnation rather than Christian love & correction, may have an effect on vulnerable youth.

I say this because I went through a period of sexual confusion in my early & mid teems and was suicidal, but thanks to a compassionate Catholic priest who did not condone homosexuality but kindly guided me through a difficult time until I matured sufficiently to marry and have a family.

Thanks for being friendly in your response :) I also struggled with much sin as a youth and a negative view of self worth and social acceptance. Never was I suicidal though. So for me the argument is strange. Perhaps I'm just a different character.
 
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"Yennora" wrote:

A few points worth clearing out in my honest opinion:
  • Preaching Christ doesn't require us to go bash others for their sins. They have their psyche, they can open the Bible themselves. They can read it, and they can understand that particular behaviors are considered sin. They don't need a preacher to go tell them that (unless they ask for it explicitly). It is enough to lead them to the Bible -> if and only if -> they accept or want preaching in the first place. Otherwise, that's a violation of their freedom rights.

There is no such" freedom right."

  • If a friend of mine, who is, on the edge of suicide, comes to me asking whether they will be in hell or not for practicing their homosexuality and I condemn them, then surely I'm the real evil here.
Not so, but that assumes that you merely answer their question. If you browbeat them and lambaste them for their lifestyle, it might be different.

Saying that people are identified by their homosexuality is like saying people are identified by their pedophilia or paraphilia or OCD or schizophrenia or no matter what evil hits the brain or the body. No, they are not.

The issue really is that they identify themselves that way.
 
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