JimR-OCDS

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The reality is, politicians, whether on the left or right, are a product of our society.

They didn't come from outer space and just get dropped onto earth.

No, they were born, raised and educated in our society. What they value is what
society values and what we see is merely a reflection of the morally bankrupted
selfish culture we've become.

When people say, "if you don't vote, you can't complain." Nonsense, if you voted
you put these people in office. If anything, the person who didn't vote can complain
because he/she didn't vote for either of them. :D
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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@TribulationSigns

Do you think we can actually contribute as Christians to the current political system, from our Christianity first, without submitting it to the demands of the liberal and secular demands of that same system?

You're saying we can participate, but to what end does our participating in the current system result in a positive advancement of Christian principles in the political realm?
 
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JimR-OCDS

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@TribulationSigns

Do you think we can actually contribute as Christians to the current political system, from our Christianity first, without submitting it to the demands of the liberal and secular demands of that same system?

You're saying we can participate, but to what end does our participating in the current system result in a positive advancement of Christian principles in the political realm?

If we want to see a change it has to begin in the home, how we raise our kids and the
values we hold on to. We produce the future politicians who'll be elected to govern the
nation and currently, the politicians we have show how immoral our society had become when they were kids.

Remember when Trump was running for the GOP Primary ? He kept telling people how
he was very rich, worth $10 billion. Whether that was true or not isn't the point. What he was doing is appealing to the voters who see wealth as a sign of wisdom and character. In the case of Trump, that was far from the truth.

The same is true again with Biden. He's been in Washington for 50 years and
was one of the politicians who helped sign the NAFTA and G-8 agreements,
which sent US jobs flying out of the country. Trump was right about one thing
when he pointed at Biden, "a typical politician, all talk and no action."
 
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timothyu

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When it comes to politicians and governance people habitually look too close at their own particular political tree. Some do realize there are a lot of trees in the forest and see the forest itself, but fail to consider who planted the forest. These are the true 'politicians' who created the system and rule invisibly from their higher thrones. Find what is the favourite god of man which all are enslaved to and you find the real power brokers that monarchs, democracies and dictators bow to alike.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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If we want to see a change it has to begin in the home, how we raise our kids and the
values we hold on to. We produce the future politicians who'll be elected to govern the
nation and currently, the politicians we have show how immoral our society had become when they were kids.

Remember when Trump was running for the GOP Primary ? He kept telling people how
he was very rich, worth $10 billion. Whether that was true or not isn't the point. What he was doing is appealing to the voters who see wealth as a sign of wisdom and character. In the case of Trump, that was far from the truth.

The same is true again with Biden. He's been in Washington for 50 years and
was one of the politicians who helped sign the NAFTA and G-8 agreements,
which sent US jobs flying out of the country. Trump was right about one thing
when he pointed at Biden, "a typical politician, all talk and no action."

I think it's noble to want future Christian politicians who will govern correctly, but they won't govern correctly, not within the current US system. They'll have to compromise themselves, they'll have to abide by the rules and interparty politics of whatever side they choose (Democrat or Republican) and end up contributing to the current system rather than reforming it and reversing it. One solution I like is don't get into politics at all, live your life according to your principles and pay your taxes. There is no reforming the leviathan from within according to it's rules.
 
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JimR-OCDS

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I think it's noble to want future Christian politicians who will govern correctly, but they won't govern correctly, not within the current US system. They'll have to compromise themselves, they'll have to abide by the rules and interparty politics of whatever side they choose (Democrat or Republican) and end up contributing to the current system rather than reforming it and reversing it. One solution I like is don't get into politics at all, live your life according to your principles and pay your taxes. There is no reforming the leviathan from within according to it's rules.

I want moral politicians, regardless of their religious beliefs.

At my age, I won't see that ever happening.
 
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timothyu

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I want moral politicians, regardless of their religious beliefs.

At my age, I won't see that ever happening.
The system has never really been based on that concept.. although I must admit the Queen of England has given up much and gone out of her way to be just that. Thing is she is only leads by example (a misguided human replica of the true Kingdom) and has no real worldly power, which of course may please God as His is the only true Kingdom we should be aligned with.
 
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rocknanchor

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miamited

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Hi @TribulationSigns

I hear you! It's getting to be a crazy world out there and will, if the prophecies of the Scriptures are true, only get worse. However, as to this discussion on christians and their involvement in the political process, I think there are only 2 options. Neither of which do I find any condemnation for within the Scriptures.

1. We can withdraw from the process entirely. Not vote and just live our lives from day to day trusting and serving God in all that we do in our own individual lives. We understand that the system is flawed and that no matter who is in the big seat, there will be problems, anger, disagreement and restlessness among the people of the world/nation. The non-participating christian merely continues to live his life day by day trusting and loving God and knowing that He will watch over our way as we live our lives. (Psalm 1)

2. We assess which person we feel is best suited for the job. As someone else has mentioned, I start with character. Now, let me be clear that I am not looking for perfect character as I'm pretty confident that no one who seeks, at least the highest offices of the land, is going to have 'perfect' character. So in this, I'm more of a 'lesser of two evils' decider. I really don't put a lot of stock in campaign promises, although I do allow that there have been times that I've leaned more towards one candidate because of some platform agenda. But for the most part, I fully understand that the president doesn't really make the laws. He's our representative to the nations and can have some bearing on the direction that the nation goes. I prefer to choose a person who acts like a good leader and is honest in most of his dealings that I'm aware of. Despite this growing thinking that we don't want politicians to be our leaders, I think that there's a certain amount of knowledge that a politician brings to the table. At least as far as the processes go.

I remember early on in the 'former guys' presidency he tried to overturn the ACA that had been voted in under the Obama administration. After losing with his tail between his legs, he opined, "Who knew that healthcare could be so hard?" Had he been a politician involved in the passing of bills and so forth in the Congress, he would have known that it was going to be a hard fought battle. He seemed to pretty regularly make political missteps that a seasoned politician would likely not have made.

Anyway, at the end of the step 2 process...go vote!

God bless,
Ted
 
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Hazelelponi

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We, as a nation, are experiencing political upheaval. The question is should we, as Christian, balance Christianity and politics?

My honest opinion is that there is no balancing or weighing one against the other. In this instance, the scales should always be one-sided. Christianity is our primary focal point, our foundation and profession or vocation that we place above every other thing. I do realize that in these last days the work of Christianity is most often relegated to the proverbial broom closet, but it should be the core investment and expenditure of our time and efforts. I never try to balance Christianity against any other thing. Our Christianity stands by itself, preeminent where no other thing is balanced against it, rather always subordinate to it.

Hebrews 12:27-28
"And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:"

One may ask if we should ignore politics because it is of the world? It depends upon what you mean by ignoring. If you mean to not take notice of it or to disregard it completely, I don't know that this is the proper attitude. I think that we should treat it as what it is "in this country." Namely, a chance to vote and have some say about our government. In our country, God has graciously allowed us to be able to do this. But we are not to be consumed by it as if a treasure so that it takes away from our first works in the expenditure of our time and efforts. Primarily we should be witnesses of the gospel. Inevitable, getting all caught up in politics will take away from that.

Matthew 6:21-22
"For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light."

Best to keep your eye single, on the prize, and not on the cares and concerns of this world. Remember, we are simply strangers and pilgrims here, this is not our home and Christians should stop "living" as if it were. Worldly politics are temporal and ultimately just fuel for the fire, while the kingdom is forever. Most of all, do not fall into the trap of having hatred for others based upon their political views, which many professing Christians have become snared. As a faithful Christian, I can say in full confidence in Christ Jesus that there is neither Republican nor Democrat, white nor black, conservative nor liberal, majority nor minority, red nor blue, but we are all one in Christ Jesus. The only tribalism the Christian should recognize is that he is sealed and secured in the Spiritual twelve tribes of Israel.

Should Christians dive headlong into politics because Christians are3 better suited to rule? That seems (in many circles Christian circles) to be of paramount importance. They seem more confident in their work in the Politics of this world than they are in the work of Christ. And I have observed that many of them can't even seem to rule their own house lawfully or in accordance with the truth of God's Word. Maybe they should get their own house in order before attempting to "fix" the world. Truthfully, Christians are NOT called or sent to fix the world, and I cannot help but think that the Apostle Paul would have rebuked both conservatives and liberals for their invoking the name of Christ in support of their own personal political agenda.

2nd Corinthians 11:3-5
"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
For I suppose I was not a whit behind the very chiefest apostles."

Our Lord Jesus does not fit into any side of the political spectrum, on the contrary, He rises above it. I can see that the Christ of Conservative and Liberal of America does NOT appear to be the Christ of the Bible. It's actually been disappointing for me to see a large portion of the church in America follow the national political discourse. I have always believed in a separation of church and state, so I take no comfort in "churches" supporting candidates, either left or right, choosing worldly partisanship over unity in Christ. I do believe that Scripture teaches us that the church should support the state in our obedience to its rule "in all things lawful." But I do not believe that the church should desire to rule with the state. We're two entirely different entities that should remain distinct. In effect, that would be like Christ wanting to rule with the Romans over Israel. This is not how the Kingdom of God works.

Don't get me wrong, following Biblical principles does not mean we become apolitical, disinterested in the affairs of "our" government. It means we place them in their proper position with our values based upon the life of Christ, and according to our resting place in His kingdom. Live according to the faith once delivered to the saints.

If you feel that we should be involved, but not of politics, voting only as a representative of Christian value. Well, I think this is the closest to being a biblical viewpoint. We live in a world of politics, but we are not of the world of politics. We already have a time-consuming vocation and it's not partisan politics. We're not commissioned to go into politics to try and change the world (an effort God's word demonstrates would be futile), rather our calling is to preach the gospel that may change a remnant of those "within the world of politics." We already have a work in government policy, and it's the work in the church government. We haven't even done well in governing that body.

Ephesians 4:11-12
"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:"

1st Corinthians 12:28-29
"And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?"

No, all are not, and most seem not to be anything at all but usurpers of Christ's name. God has set us as watchmen for the government of His congregation, and sadly the great majority are not watching! Do I vote in political elections? Of course, yes, but only in agreement with the option above of being a representative of Christian values that I think the world would benefit by. But "I have no delusions" that I will change anything about the wickedness of the governments of the world. On the contrary, the world is actually headed to hell in a handbasket and there is nothing on earth that will stop that judgment--including my vote. God is Sovereign, and I don't just say that, I know that. So if I can't in good conscience vote for a representative, congressman, or even dog catcher (understanding no man is perfect), I will not even vote. There's no law in this government that says anyone has to vote.

So in conclusion, I don't really try and balance Christianity and politics, I serve the one and participate in the other only to give my assent or dissent to laws and representatives. I believe the Lord "is LORD," meaning that He is in full control over everything, and I don't for one second imagine that I can change the world with my vote. Not like so many professing Christians, both liberals and conservatives, believe. That has always been a polite fiction in the church, a false hope when mankind's only hope is in Christ Jesus.

1st John 2:15-17
"Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever."

The politics of this world are fleeting, but the work of the gospel brings forth an eternal reward. For what good is it if we help install one man who is but a little less evil than another in God's economy? What have we gained in the big scheme of things? Both eat and drink and tomorrow they die and the evil world remains. We should spend our time working and laboring for that which lasts forever. The central truth of the faithful Christian is that we serve a sovereign God, not politics. That God ultimately determines how long the success or failure of any wicked society is. God allows man to bring his society to ruin, or He restrains Him from that ruination. The Lord giveth, and the Lord taketh away. Blessed be the name of the Lord.

This is a very good post, and one I agree with.

I believe very much since I've been saved in a strict separation of church and state, so much so that I try to separate my religious thought processes from my political stances, making sure that I'm not bringing my faith into my view of laws over much.

My problem is I guess finding the balance. I was very very political when I was unsaved - so much so political debate was a huge part of my very personality. I don't do it as much, and I certainly don't do it the way I used to even when I engage now... but I'm never sure where the balance is correctly anymore, or even if I should walk away from it all...

But this is a great post, definitely excellent food for thought.
 
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Brihaha

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Guess what ? Politicians don't notice me or most other Christians.

They cater to the extremists on the left and the right.
You hit the nail on the head. Extremists usually vote for letters. Leading to our exploitation. Politicians know this. We are living in that Stealers Wheel song: "Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right...here I am Stuck in the Middle with You."
 
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Brihaha

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I think it's noble to want future Christian politicians who will govern correctly, but they won't govern correctly, not within the current US system. They'll have to compromise themselves, they'll have to abide by the rules and interparty politics of whatever side they choose (Democrat or Republican) and end up contributing to the current system rather than reforming it and reversing it. One solution I like is don't get into politics at all, live your life according to your principles and pay your taxes. There is no reforming the leviathan from within according to it's rules.
Ah, you think our system corrupts the people. It's interesting to note our system has kept our democratic republic experiment going for 245 years. The bible says life is fairly simple, and it is we who make it complicated. I believe it is the people who have corrupted the system.
 
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timothyu

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I believe it is the people who have corrupted the system.
Depends which system you refer to, man's or God's. They do run contrary to each other. Of course a religion that re-joined the world of man over 1700 years ago and teamed up with a political empire, might indeed justify political affiliation otherwise it would be condemning it's own ungodly actions.

Luke 16: 15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

James 1:27 Pure and undefiled religion before our God and Father is this: to care for orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
 
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Brihaha

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Depends which system you refer to, man's or God's. They do run contrary to each other. Of course a religion that re-joined the world of man over 1700 years ago and teamed up with a political empire, might indeed justify political affiliation otherwise it would be condemning it's own ungodly actions.

Luke 16: 15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

James 1:27 Pure and undefiled religion before our God and Father is this: to care for orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
Man corrupts either system. I see your point tho. I remember reading in Corinthians when Paul was encouraging people not to judge everyone in the world, just their own group. To keep themselves in line with the word. He said we would have to remove ourselves from the world entirely to avoid pagans.
 
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It seems many of us do indeed let our political views put a skew on our faith and theology. It is tiresome. All we need to really do is surrender to the Gospel. “So then, none of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions.” Luke 14:33 (NASB) Our most cherished possessions are sometimes our opinions.
 
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Paradox.79

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We, as a nation, are experiencing political upheaval. The question is should we, as Christian, balance Christianity and politics?
The problem...is freedom of religion...not freedom of Christianity. Politics have no place in religion because not everybody is Christians...your religious and moral beliefs...are just that...YOURS!!!! 7 billion people, 2 billion Christian and about billion Muslims and both groups think that have the right to force there religious and moral beliefs onto the other 4 billion. The sheer arrogance to think you have the right to force your beliefs onto on other it is hilarious. What is really sad. every year there are less Christians and every other religion. Because each religious group has not respect for anyone outside there religion.
 
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Albion

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The problem...is freedom of religion...not freedom of Christianity. Politics have no place in religion because not everybody is Christians...your religious and moral beliefs...are just that...YOURS!!!! 7 billion people, 2 billion Christian and about billion Muslims and both groups think that have the right to force there religious and moral beliefs onto the other 4 billion. .
With respect to Christians, you're wrong.

There is very little of what you are alleging. Bringing the Gospel to many nations isn't forcing anything, and advocating for laws that protect other people from violence is not to "to force there [sic] religious and moral beliefs onto" anyone else.

Are you saying that an atheist, for example, who opposes police brutality, unjust imprisonments, destruction of the environment, aggressive wars, and etc. is acting properly, but if a Christian also favors such measures, he's going where he has no right to tread and that it's nothing but forcing the Christian religion upon people?? What nonsense that argument is.
 
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Except when it comes to elections, we're considered the minority now as more and more voters are opposed to Christian moral values and have made gods out of other things like race, sexual orientation, gender-identity and such.

The extremists are the one's politicians are listening to, especially Joe Biden
who is selecting radical leftist in his administration.

It use to be that politicians tried to please the Christian Moral Majority, remember those days ? Not anymore.


Why are you guys the minority now. A few reason, biology, geology, astronomy, the study of history, has debunked a good chunk of the bible. The new testament contradicts itself regularly. Another problem the entire new testament was written long after Jesus had to gone back to haven and all of the apostles were dead. Then at the council of Nicaea the bible we read today was created...the book was edited, translated in hundreds of languages and depending on the language one word can mean multiple things. Books were removed. And Christian like pretending none of this happened. And today the problem is organized religion mainly the big two Islam and Christianity think they have right to force there religious and moral belief onto another. I hate to break this to you and every other conservative Christian out there...ITS NOT FREEDOM OF CHRISTIANITY!!!! ITS FREEDOM OF RELIGION.

And I am not saying god is not real...but neither am I a conservatives Christian.
 
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