Should Christian Anarchists attempt to hold a house church meeting?

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Yahweh directs Ekklesia in all things, every day.
WHY would HE stop "church governance" ? If He Wants to, whether in a false church or in the true church, of course He can.

The question was directed towards those endorsing "Christian anarchy". If we can agree that God is omnipotent, He has the power to stop church governance. Since it still exists, it can only be because He allows it.

I guess my overall point is that there are various types of polity and all of them have Biblical justification. For those who are interested, here is a book that explains the differences.

https://www.amazon.com/Perspectives-Church-Government-Views-Polity/dp/080542590X

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Sorry, part good (1st par.) , part not (2nd par.) . Just as not many men are justified,
so also few groups if any are justified.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Sorry, part good (1st par.) , part not (2nd par.) . Just as not many men are justified,
so also few groups if any are justified.

In my opinion, Episcopal, Presbyterian, and Congregational forms of polity are all biblical models and the form of church government is not a major doctrinal issue. The most important issue is that those who are in leadership positions must submit to the authority of Christ and obediently follow His lead as revealed in Scripture ( Acts 20:28 and 1 Peter 5:2). Christ is the Head of the Church, and if any system, board, individual leader, or congregation begins to displace Christ and the Word with their own beliefs and desires, then that leadership is no longer legitimate.

 

[Norman70]

The two earlier posts are really about the problem of evil, for which there are several different approaches to a solution. It must, of course, be stated that the two evils, human evil and natural evil need to be looked at differently. Here we are discussing human evil, and all varieties of anarchism have plenty of practical ideas about how it might be dealt with.
For me, my theoretical one is the theological and philosophical argument that we have free will. Theologically God gave us free will, we are free to choose. He does not want us to be puppets on a string.However the devil is in control of this world, we are all born in sin, and we are tempted into our wicked ways. Leaders, politicians, pastors, etc. please note. Me too, I am no saint!

 

[Norman70]

In my post 21 I said I would try to respond individually to other posters. I have tried already to indicate my inability to join in on the recent discussion on the Scriptures and the writings of first and second century authors, regrettably setting themselves up as authoritarians.
I have quite a task, so before I attempt responding to individuals, in my own way of course therefore my posts can be taken with a pinch of salt, I need to explain one or two things about how I see my own spiritual development at this point in time.
This is my crunch. I am not looking for intellectual development and extending deeply my knowledge of the Bible. I am only interested in my spiritual development and drawing closer to God through Jesus. Of course reading the Bible is part of that, but so is praying and talking with my wife, perhaps writing something, and joining in here at CF and elsewhere on the Internet.
I may be wrong, but it seems to me that many Christians are more interested in their intellectual development than in their spiritual development. This may be as a result of their schooling. A recent thread I started on a UK teacher's website on developing children's spirituality in their RE lessons was laughed at. RE (religious education) teachers said it was not their job to do that, I was not suggesting they should be proselytising, not even their admitted atheism. Unfortunately churches are not doing it either, they are too busy proselytising, or trying to draw more members in to collect their tithes!
I talk about how to deal with evil and the love of money is the root of all evil, and the Scriptures say that, I read.
OK, please bear this post in mind if I do manage to write a few personal responses, and I will try to work through the whole thread from the beginning. In Jesus's name I pray.

 

[Norman70]

"Christian Anarchy" sounds like an oxymoron to me.

Christian means "Jesus is Lord."
Anarchy means "having no ruler."

You are of course completely ignoring the intellectual and theological meanings of your two premises. Going no further, of course the conclusion is an oxymoron. God bless you.

 

[Not David]

I guess you are referring to individualist anarchism, Sabertooth, propounded by Max Stirner in his book "The Ego and Its Own". That is not my sort of anarchism. I do have a certain attraction to individualism, but to proclaim it as a personal philosophy is unattractive.
I read the Bible, and i cannot help but think that Jesus never wanted his church to become institutionalized. The universal church of Christ was well described in the SDA Quarterly to which I have already referred, and an opening sentence in that Quarterly frankly says that as Adventists we are not the universal church of Christ. To me the universal church of Christ is an anarchistic ideology, unachievable with the devil in control of this world, We can only wait for the Second Coming.
In the meantime, however, since I also believe we cannot have faith without works, we must do all we can to spread the words of the Gospel and show that institutional and established churches are the work of the devil.

God gave the keys of heavens to the Apostles, gave them authority to forgive sins and gave them authority to bound on Earth so that it can be bound in Heaven.
It seems the Church had a lot of authority

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

God gave the keys of heavens to the Apostles, gave them authority to forgive sins and gave them authority to bound on Earth so that it can be bound in Heaven.
It seems the Church had a lot of authority

The men picked and chosen by Yahweh, called and set apart by Yahweh for Himself were given a job to do. For the Ekklesia.
Big difference.

What was already bound in heaven, they could bind on earth.
What was already loosed in heaven, they could loose on earth.

Just as Jesus taught them : see what the Father DOES in heaven, while in prayer yourself with the Father, and DO THAT.
Listen to the Father frequently privately in prayer with Him,
and what the Father says to speak, speak His Word as He Says.

 

[Not David]

The men picked and chosen by Yahweh, called and set apart by Yahweh for Himself were given a job to do. For the Ekklesia.
Big difference.

What was already bound in heaven, they could bind on earth.
What was already loosed in heaven, they could loose on earth.

Just as Jesus taught them : see what the Father DOES in heaven, while in prayer yourself with the Father, and DO THAT.
Listen to the Father frequently privately in prayer with Him,
and what the Father says to speak, speak His Word as He Says.

No, read again what Jesus said: "Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." Not the other way around.

 

[mark kennedy]

@mark kennedy. When I was trained as a school teacher in 1966 we were all involved and instructed to use small group work. With a class divided thus, no group had a leader. Individuals might display leadership but none was appointed.

Well you probably realize I was kind of kidding, but I can see that. I actually toyed with the concept of anarchy for a while, finally coming to the conclusion that there is such a thing as leadership and authority, dismissing it afterwards. But hey, I say if there is some way you can make it work I believe in your right to pursue that possibility. I wish you the best of luck and great success in that endeavor, I like the concept but really have no idea how it would work in practical terms.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

No, read again what Jesus said: "Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." Not the other way around.

No.
Look into the original meaning.


Likewise, as Jesus ALSO said directly to the Apostles: spend time daily , frequently, with the Father , and gradually your focus will change from yourself to Him.
What you see the Father DO, then you DO;
what the Father says, you say;

Let everything , everything, you do and say be as from the Father. (the same as Jesus did nothing of Himself, but always as the Father directed).

 

[Not David]

No.
Look into the original meaning.


Likewise, as Jesus ALSO said directly to the Apostles: spend time daily , frequently, with the Father , and gradually your focus will change from yourself to Him.
What you see the Father DO, then you DO;
what the Father says, you say;

Let everything , everything, you do and say be as from the Father. (the same as Jesus did nothing of Himself, but always as the Father directed).

Implying that this takes authority out of the Apostles and their successors.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Implying that this takes authority out of the Apostles and their successors.

Sort of.
Remember how Jesus lived. always trusting His life to His Father. Always doing what the Father said to do and saying what the Father instructed Him to say - nothing of Himself.
Is there any authority greater than the Father ?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I guess my overall point is that there are various types of polity and all of them have Biblical justification.

I hope you really mean that all of them THINK they have Biblical justification.
Since it is very clear to the humble poor abiding in Jesus that most of them do not.

 

[Norman70]

@mark kennedy. Thank you for coming in on a lengthy thread, someone somewhere said anarchy was simply no rulers and therefore was not complex!! Many of the posters here do not seem to distinguish between authoritativeness and authoritarianism, and they mostly relate leadership with the latter of these two concepts.
Recently on another website I have been told that I am of the anarchist communism variety, described in detail, and theoretically, by Peter Kropotkin. On top of this we have Proudhon, Bakunin and Stirner just as starters!
Thank you for your good wishes. I am now fully retired from school teaching, disabled in my old age, all I can do is read, write and talk, and that may not last very long! My sojourn into these forums keeps me going, but from my early days of school teaching (1966) as a complete optimist I am now the complete pessimist. All we have now is God, and I bless you again for your support.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

QUOTE="Norman70, post: 73541968, member: 414518"]@mark kennedy. Thank you for coming in on a lengthy thread, someone somewhere said anarchy was simply no rulers and therefore was not complex!! Many of the posters here do not seem to distinguish between authoritativeness and authoritarianism, and they mostly relate leadership with the latter of these two concepts.
Recently on another website I have been told that I am of the anarchist communism variety, described in detail, and theoretically, by Peter Kropotkin. On top of this we have Proudhon, Bakunin and Stirner just as starters!
Thank you for your good wishes. I am now fully retired from school teaching, disabled in my old age, all I can do is read, write and talk, and that may not last very long! My sojourn into these forums keeps me going, but from my early days of school teaching (1966) as a complete optimist I am now the complete pessimist. All we have now is God, and I bless you again for your support.[/QUOTE
=======================================
At what point was it best, easiest, or hardest to be a student of Jesus ?

 

[mark kennedy]

@mark kennedy. Thank you for coming in on a lengthy thread, someone somewhere said anarchy was simply no rulers and therefore was not complex!! Many of the posters here do not seem to distinguish between authoritativeness and authoritarianism, and they mostly relate leadership with the latter of these two concepts.
Recently on another website I have been told that I am of the anarchist communism variety, described in detail, and theoretically, by Peter Kropotkin. On top of this we have Proudhon, Bakunin and Stirner just as starters!
Thank you for your good wishes. I am now fully retired from school teaching, disabled in my old age, all I can do is read, write and talk, and that may not last very long! My sojourn into these forums keeps me going, but from my early days of school teaching (1966) as a complete optimist I am now the complete pessimist. All we have now is God, and I bless you again for your support.

Your certainly very welcome, I think you are pursuing this in good conscience. More and more I'm thinking civil disobedience will become the only avenue for change unless the people learn to wield their power responsibly. I was recently listening to Chris Hedges talking about corporate totalitarianism. One of the reasons for it he said, was we went from a production oriented society to a consumer oriented society leading to slavish debt.

Chris Hedges: Corporate Totalitarianism: The End Game

It's loaded with the historical wrong turn of society. If you got into Greek History you might notice that their ideals of democracy early were autocratic. Then Athens imposed it's will on Greece, enslaving it, which lead to them enslaving themselves. If you look at Protestantism politically, they sought to throw off the tyranny of Rome, which after the Thirty Years War and the Civil War in England they effectively did. Now I fear our great Protestant tradition has withdrawn into ivory towers both in Ivy League circles in the east, right wing Christian right extremism and the strange world of left coast liberalism.

I first encountered anarchist thinking while researching the labor unions, it is shameful how that movement was systematically destroyed while being infused with European national socialism.

I could ramble on, all the best in your pursuits, there is still hope I think for autocratic rule. But in the words of Bob Dylan 'all along the watch tower princes kept their view...let us stop talking falsely now, the hour is getting late'. Not too late I would say, but it's getting there.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

QUOTE=
"mark kennedy, post: 73542017, member: 29337"]Then Athens imposed it's will on Greece, enslaving it, which lead to them enslaving themselves. If you look at Protestantism politically, they sought to throw off the tyranny of Rome, which after the Thirty Years War and the Civil War in England they effectively did. Now I fear our great Protestant tradition has withdrawn into ivory towers both in Ivy League circles in the east, right wing Christian right extremism and the strange world of left coast liberalism.

I first encountered anarchist thinking while researching the labor unions, it is shameful how that movement was systematically destroyed while being infused with European national socialism.

I could ramble on, all the best in your pursuits, there is still hope I think for autocratic rule. But in the words of Bob Dylan 'all along the watch tower princes kept their view...let us stop talking falsely now, the hour is getting late'. Not too late I would say, but it's getting there.
[/QUOTE
================================

For some, for multitudes?, it is too late?

IN all the 'groups' or types mentioned(underlined) in the quote above,
were any of them followers of Jesus / or rather, which ones ? What Way is Jesus Way ?

 

[Norman70]

@yeshuaslavejeff [/QUOTE]At what point was it best, easiest, or hardest to be a student of Jesus ?[/QUOTE]
My spiritual journey is complex, (but no where near as complex as the political ideology we call anarchism!!), but I discovered that C. S. Lewis had similar experiences to my own. A revelation that God exists, then an intellectual journey into the acceptance of Jesus as God. I claim to be trying to be a Christian, and is a journey, well described by Lewis in his story "A Pilgrim's Regress". We only reach our destination at death.
The hardest part is now. In my short time left I want to be reasonably comfortable, and indulge, hopefully not over-indulge, in the pleasures of our worldly life. Spiritually God is my great Comforter, in this life God has given me a wonderful wife.
You also ask "What Way is Jesus's Way?". My simple answer is to love our neighbours, and to turn our other cheek against those who would try to harm us.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

We need to , as Jesus says, reach our final destination so to speak, TODAY, for tomorrow may be too late.
as written "TODAY",
IF you hear His Voice, ("TODAY"), do not rebel as they did in the wilderness and perished ....