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Should Bin Laden be executed or allowed to live?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by SOS, Dec 6, 2001.

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  1. john316

    john316 Member

    120
    +0
    Let's try a WWJD - What Would Jesus Do?

    Would Jesus be quick to sentence Bin Laden to death? Or forgive him 77 times over?
     
  2. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

    +8
    United States
    Protestant
    Married
    US-Libertarian

    Hello john316,
    I assume you are asking my opinion? Well, we might not agree on this, but I still love you anyway. I would have to answer your question with a question. If Bin Laden repented, I think Jesus would forgive him, but I seriously doubt the world will forgive him. But, if he didn't repent and ask for forgiveness-I think his punishment would be swift and severe like Satans. When Jesus returns next time, He won't come as a suffering servant; No He'll come back as the JUDGE. Justice will be served!rollinTHUNDER
     
  3. rkbo

    rkbo Member

    272
    +0
    Shweew, a lot of issues have been raised and heavy duty ones at that. As far as forgiveness, do we forgive some one that does not ask for it? Don't think so.

    Do we still eye for an eye, now days? Well this was a form of justice that was fair above all. You see God didn't want us overdoing it with punishment. He didn't want us to cut off a head if the guy realy only deserved a tooth knock out...see what I mean.
    What was Jesus trying to teach about this? This is very important let's take it slow and back up a verse or two.
    Matt 5:37-44
    37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.
    38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
    39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
    40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.
    41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
    42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
    43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
    44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
    (KJV)

    He is setting up a principle, if it is pure litteral then we can only say yea, yea or nay, nay, right? You understand this was talking about taking an oath if you back up further, but I digress.

    The eye for eye justice thing goes like this. Jesus is teaching us a better way of conducting ourselves. Paul tells us not to render evil for evil. These are crimes against us as Christians. Osama perpetrated crimes against our nation. Our laws will deal with that.As for my personal oppion. I say eye for eye tooth for tooth. If he killed me I would say don't worry about it I'm in a better place.
    Prov 24:29
    29 Say not, I will do so to him as he hath done to me: I will render to the man according to his work.
    (KJV)

    This is a personal way to conduct my life. As for national justice God has set forth the rule of thumb and it is eye for eye, tooth for tooth.
     
  4. fran

    fran Member

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    But how can you stick to an eye for an eye when Jesus tells us to turn the other cheek?

    Just wondering...
     
  5. rkbo

    rkbo Member

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    I was afaid I would confuse you. I believe like Yauming does that the government has a duty given by God to pass judgment and it sould be fair. The punishment should fit the crime.

    My personal life should be such that I would rather suffer wrong than insist on revenge or the like.

     
  6. internet

    internet That avatar is NOT me! :)

    82
    +0
    So should Christians support capital punishment? That is the issue. In the OT, God decreed that certain crimes deserved death. But in the NT, Jesus was clear about giving grace.

    It's a difficult dilemma, and I don't have the answers.
     
  7. Locke

    Locke New Member

    5
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    Problem here is people cant distinguish between justice and revenge.

    Eye for and eye was a law meant for equity in justice. The Jews of Yeshua's(Jesus) time had severely misinterpreted the law and used this a a command to seek revenge. This is clearly a fallacy, as justice was something meant for courts with the final ruling to be made by appointed government officials, not personal revenge under the discretion as the avenger. Yeshua did not speak against this part of the Law; he told us to follow it.

    It says life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, but goes later on to say that if a man strikes a servant he is set free. Doesnt seem to make much sense at first glance, I mean...you hit someones servant and nothing happens to you...WHATS THAT ABOUT? If you study this, you will find, it is a lesson that we get our justice from our master, not from other men. He is our Master, and we are His bondservants, and our Master tells us to turn the other cheek when one offends us, to not seek out revenge. The laws for bondservants(BTW the Paul, Peter, James, John, etc. noted themselves as bondservants, called apostles) are different than laws which were to be followed by its other citizens, and even the strangers in the land of Israel.

    A matter of murder is in fact to be brought before the courts and justice is to be sought. There is a big difference between murder and capital punishment; it says "Thou shalt not murder"(might be 'kill in some translations, but is best translated as 'murder') and murder is killing of someone who is innocent of crimes deserving death...captial punishment is the consequence of breaking laws DESERVING of death. God is not going to contradict Himself and say dont kill anybody, then go on to say if someone breaks this law, kill him.

    Keep in mind that none of us as Christians have the option to turn the other cheek in concern with the WTC/Pentagon incident, as Christians were not the ones wronged. This an act of murder brought against people of America, not just Christians.

    We live in a society of laws, many of which happen to come in agreement with God's laws. And please dont feed me this "there isnt law anymore" stuff. Scripture teaches us that authorities are put in place by God, and they are to be obeyed, unless coming into conflict with HIS law.

    Americans have the most laws of any nations, yet we have the most freedom. We live as free men under laws, and we are to obey those laws. Take away laws, and you have Anarchy, and if you think that's freedom, you have another thing coming.

    Bonner Lewis
     
  8. Droobie

    Droobie Rebmem Raluger

    +64
    Pentecostal
    Married
    AU-Liberals
    Hi Locke, welcome to the forums. Just a thought on your last posting. Purely on the topic of capital punishment... if you sentence to death someone who has committed crimes, it is not considered murder... but what happens if later you find out that person was innocent?
     
  9. Christsoldier

    Christsoldier So, I'm an apologetic!

    143
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    I think something important to remember is the religion he practices. To execute him would be to elevate him to position of martyr. He has declared this a jihad.
     
  10. Locke

    Locke New Member

    5
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    As for an innocent person being sentenced to death for something he isnt guilty of; it happens. Never pretty when it happens, but it does.

    Biblical conviction was based on the evidence of two or three witnesses, which is very similar to what we have in America...conviction based on evidence. Great system, but the problem is that you always have liars out there. Need to look no further than the trial of Steven; false witnesses came forth saying he spoke against the law of Moses, when he didnt, and he was killed for it. Even God's flawless system of justice can be abused by people seeking out the death of the innocent. My belief is that if this happens, the people who have lied and brought forth false evidence are the people who caused the death of the innocent; they are murderers, and are to be treated as such.

    As for the martyrdom of Islam; I couldnt care less what Binny thinks his death will bring. I say we go ahead and send him to his virgin-filled mansion.;)
     
  11. IM4HIM

    IM4HIM New Member

    16
    +0
    Hi Droobie,
    That question begs another. What about the innocence of Jesus?

    We live in an imperfect world. Not everytime will justice be meted out by man justly do you think? The one who was innocent would he be offered special consideration when arriving for judgement day maybe?
    Based on our knowledge of Usama's past bio and the tape that has shown he is directly involved; is he not guilty of the crime? That is what I believe we should not forget. It was a crime of murder against mankind that deserves capital punishment.

    His religion may make him a martyr, but his act should make him dead. I believe others who would have followed in his footsteps have now put the brakes on now that they have seen world reaction. I don't think a radical religion of this sort would produce that many followers who are courageous enough to emulate him after they see what happens to him. I believe radicals of this sort can be found anywhere. The Oklahoma City bombing might be a reminder. What did we do with the young man who believed what he was doing was right in committing that crime? Should we do no less the same in this instance?:(
     
  12. paulallen56

    paulallen56 New Member

    2
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    He will reap what he sowed, God will take care of him in due time... His punishment might just have to wait for a while.
     
  13. Droobie

    Droobie Rebmem Raluger

    +64
    Pentecostal
    Married
    AU-Liberals
    Only one man is/was ever without sin, and that was Jesus who died for our sins on the cross, so that we may not die but have eternal life. Thus in the end, it is he who is without sin who will judge all men. Jesus is indeed innocent, and thus it is only He who should be able to judge a man.

    As for mistakes where innocents have been given the death penalty... it happens? Even if you do catch those who bore false witness, is that it? What do you say to the person's family? What do you say to their mother? father? son or daughter? "Sorry, but at the time we thought they were guilty... mistakes happen... deal with it!" If you were the one who pushed the button, do you rest easy and say "I thought he was guilty at the time, so it wasn't murder"

    I believe it is not for us to judge jury and executor. I believe that killing is still killing, whether the person is innocent or guilty. It is not for us to deal out this kind of justice. In John 8:1-11 is an example of what I'm trying to illustrate here. Would you truly believe Jesus to have cast rocks if Osama were to be brought before him?

    Has any of the past executions of the convicted halted crime? Has it stopped people from sinning? Sin will always be in this world until we're one with God. Of course I'm not saying set those people free. They should be allowed to live, but put them in jail. Lock them up for life with no parole! Let them contemplate what they've done in prison and face the victims day by day.

    On a side note, hypothetically, if Mr. Bin Laden while in prison awaiting trial, were to truly repent and come to Christ (purely hypothetically mind you). If he confesses his sins to God and accepts Christ into his life, is he not saved and washed clean of sin? Are his sins not forgiven in the eyes of God. If he truly repented I'm saying. Then would executing him be a murder of an innocent? Are we to be the ones who judge whether someone deserves death or not?

    Along the same lines is another point. Are not all sins equal in the sight of God? Or are some sins just more deserving of death than others? I'm talking sin, not crimes in a court of law here. If all sins are equal, as it states in the Bible, everyone is guilty and should be put to death. Indeed, we all have already been sentenced to death. But through Jesus, we shall have eternal life.

    Would you with a clear conscience be the one who pushes the button to execute someone? As christians, we should not support capital punishment.

    PS. Mind you, I'm in not defending Osama here, I'm just arguing capital punishment and using Osama as an example since he's the topic of this thread.
     
  14. IM4HIM

    IM4HIM New Member

    16
    +0
    Hi Droobie,
    Hope the fires down under are soon out.

    I understand your position. I would ask the question, does imprisonment deter crime? Apparently not, because we continue to run out of jail space.
    In either case, life imprisonment or capital punishment both can have innocent people involved. I agree with you that life imprisonment on the surface appears to allow rectification of an innocently imprisoned individual. However, again in this imperfect world that is no guarantee.

    Bottom line, no matter what justice man tries to mete out, Jesus' justice is the best. I would ask though why would God place the law in place to begin with Exodus 20:1-26 commandments governing personal lives, Exodus 21:1 -- 24:11 judgments governing social lives, and Exodus 24:12 -- 31:18 ordinances governing religious lives (no sacrifices req'd now) so that people know how to approach God on the terms He dictates.

    Should we because we are under grace throw out the ten commandments? BTW "murder", not killing is the better word to represent the Hebrew translation of -OT 7523 ratsach- "kill a human being" a desecration of one of God's creation. In my estimation the murderer gave up the right to life by willfully taking another life in this case thousands as an act of war.

    Would you turn the other cheek if a radical group was intent on destroying your country?
     
  15. Yauming

    Yauming Member

    368
    +1
    Read the previous post by Locke and myself. I think we have sufficiently explained the Christian response.
     
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