Should all Christians support Uganda's newest anti LGBTQ+ legislation?

[Divide]

So you don't get your hands dirty yourself I see. You're okay with the killing of gay people as long as someone else is "pulling the trigger".

I didn't say that at all if you comprehend my words. My whole point has been that we are not born on earth to wallow in the depravity of sin. We must strive to rise above that and elevate our spirit to the truths of our beginning and purpose, which is to seek God and obey how He says that we should live.

You know of silkworms? The silkworm dies, but the moth lives. They are not two seperate beings but one, experiencing growth. What will happen to the silkworm if it does not struggle to get out of it's cocoon? Then it will never be a moth.

Do you like the TV series, Kung-Fu?

So you can't throw anything onto me. We're talking about God here and what He has commanded us to do and not do. Neither do I make the laws so that's just a wee bit of a half-wit question. I don't understand that? Am I ok with the killing of gays? What does that even mean? Are these gays in my house uninvited? Trying to con one of my sons into being gay or something? You have got to come up with better questions. I am a Christian and I take it very seriously. That should answer that, so can we move on now?

Do you believe in God? Jesus?

 

[Hans Blaster]

You know of silkworms? The silkworm dies, but the moth lives. They are not two seperate beings but one, experiencing growth. What will happen to the silkworm if it does not struggle to get out of it's cocoon? Then it will never be a moth.

That's not how insect metamorphosis works. The worm/caterpillar *IS* the same creature. The old one doesn't "die", but rather it undergoes various growths as part of the change.

 

[grasping the after wind]

This hinges on production of children being the only worthwhile thing people in a relationship can do, something I’m not persuaded is the case.

Does this standard apply to those who could have children but choose not to or those who could have more children but choose not to?

You are proposing somewhat of a strawman here. The particular argument that was given was not that there is only one worthwhile thing people in a relationship can do. The argument was about the relative worth to society of two kinds of relationships. There may be any number of things a person might do that one might consider worthwhile. There is a difference between doing something worthwhile and doing something that contributes to the general welfare of society. Producing children does contribute to the general welfare of society as it helps ensure the survival of the species. No matter how worthwhile one might think one's personal relationship is, one cannot simply assert that because of what one thinks of one's relationship that it makes any contribution to the general welfare of society.

I haven't proposed a standard. I merely have given a non-religious argument as to why homosexual relationships are less valuable to society than heterosexual ones. The same argument could be applied to those that make a conscious decision to not have children. It can be argued that such a sterile relationship is not as valuable to society as one that is fecund.

In both cases, if one wants to use the idea of a moral bad in a non-religious context, one has the opportunity to contribute to the welfare of society and one chooses to refrain from doing so. The argument there would be that choosing not to be of use in contributing to the general welfare is equivalent to doing harm.

I should add that I do not necessarily find these arguments convincing. However, if one were to accept as a given the non-religious assumptions, they are based upon they are logical and consistent arguments.

 

[Whyayeman]

I have to side with Uganda on this.

Am I ok with the killing of gays?

It appears that you are in favour of killing gays. And not just in Uganda. You appeared to welcome the return of capital punishment in America too. Maybe you should read over your posts, preferably before posting.

 

[Whyayeman]

No matter how worthwhile one might think one's personal relationship is, one cannot simply assert that because of what one thinks of one's relationship that it makes any contribution to the general welfare of society.

This too has the look of a straw man argument. Private relationships need not be, really should not be, judged for their utility.

I think the idea that some relationships are better than others on the grounds of their usefulness to society misses an important point about same sex relationships. They are the relationships which make couples happy, or at least happier.

Clearly there are some who consider such relationships as inferior to heterosexual partnerships but that is irrelevant. I contend that all relationships based on mutual love and respect are good. I would go further; such relationships add to the sum of human happiness.

 

[Divide]

It appears that you are in favour of killing gays. And not just in Uganda. You appeared to welcome the return of capital punishment in America too. Maybe you should read over your posts, preferably before posting.

Maybe you just have poor comprehension?, Lol.

Ok I'll try again and rephrase it for you.

"People are not the enemy. Gays are not the enemy. Murderers are not the enemy. Armed robbers are not the enemy...and so forth and so on...

Ephesians 6:12
12 For we are not fighting against flesh-and-blood enemies, but against evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against mighty powers in this dark world, and against evil spirits in the heavenly places.../NLT

In other words, Demonic Oppression and evil spirits that continually hound people at their weakest points goading them to do things...!! Those people need help not killed! If they die in their sins then they will be lost for eternity. That's huge.

There is a very real spiritual war going on. And the gays are out in force infiltating the churches and and online forums seeking acceptance by the Christians but don't be mean to us or offend us, like they are an ethnic group or something. Sin is wrong and if you want to live, and live good, then ask for forgiveness from God and let the old stupid man die and be renewed in Christ. But don't expect the Christians to shut up about the truth. You can believe or not believe, you can go on thinking that all those voices in your head are all one voice and your own but not different sources and remain clueless, or you could ask God with the right heart and He will answer you if you listen.

So do you believe in God or not? Are you dodging the question?

 

[Hans Blaster]

There is a very real spiritual war going on. And the gays are out in force infiltating the churches and and online forums seeking acceptance by the Christians but don't be mean to us or offend us, like they are an ethnic group or something. Sin is wrong and if you want to live, and live good, then ask for forgiveness from God and let the old stupid man die and be renewed in Christ. But don't expect the Christians to shut up about the truth. You can believe or not believe, you can go on thinking that all those voices in your head are all one voice and your own but not different sources and remain clueless, or you could ask God with the right heart and He will answer you if you listen.

Oh good grief. Infiltrators. SMH.

So do you believe in God or not? Are you dodging the question?

What part "Atheist" in their profile do you not understand?

 

[Whyayeman]

There is a very real spiritual war going on. And the gays are out in force infiltating the churches and and online forums seeking acceptance by the Christians but don't be mean to us or offend us, like they are an ethnic group or something. Sin is wrong and if you want to live, and live good, then ask for forgiveness from God and let the old stupid man die and be renewed in Christ. But don't expect the Christians to shut up about the truth. You can believe or not believe, you can go on thinking that all those voices in your head are all one voice and your own but not different sources and remain clueless, or you could ask God with the right heart and He will answer you if you listen.

So do you believe in God or not? Are you dodging the question?

I think this talk of a 'spiritual war' waged by gay people is paranoid nonsense. It is a simple fact that many gay people are members of churches and other Christian communities. Many are ordained ministers, loved and respected by their congregations.

In case it has slipped anybody's mind this forum is open to atheists. Of course I do not believe in anybody's God!

 

[Divide]

Oh good grief. Infiltrators. SMH.

What part "Atheist" in their profile do you not understand?

Hey you edited what you wrote and took out all the SMH...!!
Including the SMH, you gave an extremely interesting answer. You are no Atheist and have demonstrated it in a practical way!

A long time ago I heard what was delivered as a Christian cliche of sorts and what was said had the ring of truth to it so it stuck with me. It goes like this...

The only reason that there are Atheists, is that God is real and they do know it. If there really was no God, then there would be no Atheists...

Scripture says that God has planted in man the seed of God so that none will be without excuse for knowing. In other words you or other atheists are not speaking the truth when it is said by you that there is no God.

And it ssure soundsed like you do believe in God inside of you wayyyy down deep inside. But you God is real and you demonstrated (I believe), a fear of God. I'll explain:

I wrote a lot about God. In the various secitions that you would quote & respond to, it was "SMH..." you were speechless at the truth! Inside of yourself you felt the ring of truth to it so would not respond to that directly and speak against God. Hence, a demonstrated fear of God. And that is totally ok brother, I fear God too!

You felt safer turning the conversation away from God (just in case!) and to me personally before you tried to disparage me and my view. Lol! There's hope for you yet Brother!

I don't visit these guys profiles. I just come here and talk and respond to what they have written.

WHy do Atheists lie? Easy, because they have their favorite sin. The are a druggie or they are a gay or something that they like and they know full well that by God's standards it is a wrong thing to do. (but all those people are saying, Whee it's fun and it's ok. I am a christian gay and love God! and identify with their sin rather than God.

SMH!!! Bravo Sir!!

 

[Divide]

I think this talk of a 'spiritual war' waged by gay people is paranoid nonsense. It is a simple fact that many gay people are members of churches and other Christian communities. Many are ordained ministers, loved and respected by their congregations.

In case it has slipped anybody's mind this forum is open to atheists. Of course I do not believe in anybody's God!

What you mean? No one has told you you are not welcome here. Just remember though, us Christians are welcome too.

Either you sir, have the poorest comprehension on the planet or are intenionally being haughty and disdainful. (which is lacking in class), because I never said that Gays are waging a spiritual war. I named those ones to be evil spirits and demonic oppression. I said those people need help because they have been subjected to these forces.

So what's it going to be, Atheist? Will you try to show that you have comprehension and can have meaningful discussion like a man, or will you pretend that...Oh I said gays are bad kill all the gays, like a clueless child?

So come on man, you are welcome here. Let's hear it. You want to talk to a Christian? You got one. Can you be a man about it? Snide comments and purposeful derailing of the conversation is very very childish and edifys no one.

Your choice.

 

[Divide]

I forget who it was, but I remember another poster making the point that, you guys will never get it if you continue to only look at the world and situations in a secular worldly view and not look at it spiritually at all. That is a fundamental, and a good point.

If you huys can seriously say there are no such thing as, spirits, paranormal, supernatural and unseen things on this earth then you would be either lying or had you head in the sand your entire life. Most everyone has had some sort of brush with the unseen in the world. They make TV shows about it. So it seems to me, that if anyone has experienced the supernatural in any way, then...they believe in at least some portion of that truth.

Even satanists worship their "god". Well, if satan is true then that means God is true. And if God is true, then...there is probably more spirits here on earth than there is people. Think about that. God is said to have innumerable amount of Angels, and there has been described in scripture lots of other types of beings also, then there is Lucifer and supposedly 1/3 of the Angels of heaven went with him when he got kicked out of heaven.

But if satan only got 1/3 of the Angels from heaven then he was outnumbered from the start 2 to 1. So he has been increasing his numbers since then.

But the point is that the supernatural is undeniable at this point. There's more going on here than meets the eye...!

Tales of the supernatural, It a Miracle, UFO abductions & sightings, X Files, Visions, Dreams and Mysterys...and personal Testimonies from many many people in all walks of life. Everybody can't be lying. And if any of it is true, then all of it would have to be true! That can be a scary thought.

So we were born into a spiritual war that we did not start, we are behind the lines so to speak, and we were born with Amnesia. And while it's obvious now that most everything that we have ever been taught have been kies and yet, The Truth Is Out There...

I bet even Mr Atheist owns a Bible. We've looked into the field pack which has been given to us, and we find, An Instruction manual! A Field Manual! (The Bible), and I see that, we also have a Radio (Prayer, Talk to this unseen God!) I didn't know how to operate the radio at first but after trying it out here and there I am glad I have it. It feels like a Hotline to the Throneroom of God. Elijah called in an air strike! The other thing that we have with us even if we don't realize it is the Holy Spirit of God with us and given with the promise to lead us into all truth. So he is a helper and our tutor when we study the Field Manual. Oh I almost forgot, what could this be? It is small but it is making noise. It is talking to me! I asked the doctor what could this thing be? And he told me that it is called a "conscience" and it will always speak for you to do the right thing in whatever situation you find yourself in.

Huh, A conscience, Mr Atheist, will you now deny that you have a conscience? Has your conscience ever told you not to do something? Or something like, it would be better to do that this way...? Have you ever listened to your own conscience and did what it said to? Did you not have a good feeling of the satisfaction of a job well done?
Have you ever went against what your conscience says? You might have fely a bit convicted about it? You prolly got over it and besides the guy had it coming for some reason blah blah blah..but did you get the twinge of, I did bad...?

The conscience is God's safety receiver for people who will not read His word that he wrote (the Field Manual) so that in an emergency he can contact you, Hey don't do that!! Do this!! I believe that if you always listen to what your conscience says then you will be within the will of God in your life.

SO in summary, if you don't believe in God, what do you believe in? What urge brought you to a Christian forum of all places? WHere we discuss fables of a god that doesn't exist, Lol??!! Do you have a conscience or not?

The truth is out there.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Hey you edited what you wrote and took out all the SMH...!!

Look again at the post you responded to. I have made no edits to my posts in this thread. (The "SMH" I wrote is still there. You even quoted it in you own post.)

Including the SMH, you gave an extremely interesting answer. You are no Atheist and have demonstrated it in a practical way!

Did I? I only SMH at you comment about gay people "infiltrating" your church. Not sure how that would make you confident that I am not an atheist. (I am. I don't believe in your god or any others, ergo, I am an atheist. It's not hard to figure out.)

A long time ago I heard what was delivered as a Christian cliche of sorts and what was said had the ring of truth to it so it stuck with me. It goes like this...

A argument based on cliche, this should turn out well... (that was sarcasm, it won't)

The only reason that there are Atheists, is that God is real and they do know it. If there really was no God, then there would be no Atheists...

Oh good grief, atheists are just people who don't buy any of the various god claims. No actual gods are required to not believe in the claims of gods.

Scripture says that God has planted in man the seed of God so that none will be without excuse for knowing. In other words you or other atheists are not speaking the truth when it is said by you that there is no God.

I haven't claimed "there is no god" certainly not in this thread. And "scripture" is a fancy word for saying it was in something "Paul" wrote about his own beliefs.

And it ssure soundsed like you do believe in God inside of you wayyyy down deep inside. But you God is real and you demonstrated (I believe), a fear of God.

Nope. I don't fear what I do not think is real. Your god just isn't very scary.

I'll explain:

I wrote a lot about God. In the various secitions that you would quote & respond to, it was "SMH..." you were speechless at the truth!

No. No. No. I "SMH" at the notion that gay people are infiltrating churches to bring them down. The reality (if you can handle it) is that some of those small children you raise as Christians turn out to be gay. Other gay people "find Christ" and become Christians on their own. Those "infiltrators" are just gay people who believed in Jesus.

Inside of yourself you felt the ring of truth to it so would not respond to that directly and speak against God. Hence, a demonstrated fear of God. And that is totally ok brother, I fear God too!

I don't fear your god or any others. I have no reason to fear them or think they even exist. I spoke against your fantastical "infiltrator" notion.

You felt safer turning the conversation away from God (just in case!) and to me personally before you tried to disparage me and my view. Lol! There's hope for you yet Brother!

What little conversation we have isn't about your god, no matter how hard you try to make it. It is entirely about your "infiltrator" claim.

I don't visit these guys profiles. I just come here and talk and respond to what they have written.

But if you're going to write "do you even believe" it would be useful, to avoid embarrassment if nothing else, to check and see if the other person is some sort of Christian.

WHy do Atheists lie?

Probably for the same sorts of reasons Christians lie. People lie and all atheists and all Christians are people.

Easy, because they have their favorite sin. The are a druggie or they are a gay or something that they like and they know full well that by God's standards it is a wrong thing to do.

The majority of humans don't know your god's "standards" as they are not and have never been Christians. That includes a large number of atheists. For those of us atheists who used to be Christians, we just don't care what "god's standards" are because we don't think those "standards" are anything other than the opinions of long dead men.

(but all those people are saying, Whee it's fun and it's ok. I am a christian gay and love God! and identify with their sin rather than God.

SMH!!! Bravo Sir!!

 

[Divide]

Look again at the post you responded to. I have made no edits to my posts in this thread. (The "SMH" I wrote is still there. You even quoted it in you own post.)

Sure I see one SMH, but there were three or four more just like it, very short with only SMH quoted under different sections of my post where I spoke about God and so forth. I know what I read.

I haven't claimed "there is no god" certainly not in this thread. And "scripture" is a fancy word for saying it was in something "Paul" wrote about his own beliefs.

I do not believe in anybody's God!

Oh, you are right it was this other guy.

Nope. I don't fear what I do not think is real. Your god just isn't very scary.

Oh so then you are an Atheist, you did say it here.

No. No. No. I "SMH" at the notion that gay people are infiltrating churches to bring them down.

Wel, so maybe you thought what you had said wasn't entirely accurate how you posted it or something so that's why you took out the other (smh's)? Look all I know is what I read. In your post before it wasnt there anymore!

 

[PloverWing]

WHy do Atheists lie? Easy, because they have their favorite sin. The are a druggie or they are a gay or something that they like and they know full well that by God's standards it is a wrong thing to do.

Don't do this. Many atheists are atheists because they genuinely don't see enough evidence to persuade them that God or gods exist. Many of these same atheists strive to live according to ethical principles, to be people of integrity, to contribute to society, and to make other people's lives better.

We can have civil conversations in which we disagree with each other, without resorting to accusations that people follow a particular religious philosophy because they love sin.

 

[Whyayeman]

Perhaps we should stay on topic.

Slinging insults around and mocking posters is, I think, against the spirit of Christian Forums, and probably against the flaming rule. When it comes to comprehension, however, one well known member has a point. I can't understand much of what he posts.

 

[Divide]

Don't do this. Many atheists are atheists because they genuinely don't see enough evidence to persuade them that God or gods exist. Many of these same atheists strive to live according to ethical principles, to be people of integrity, to contribute to society, and to make other people's lives better.

We can have civil conversations in which we disagree with each other, without resorting to accusations that people follow a particular religious philosophy because they love sin.

You may be right Brother. Except that not all atheists are like you say. We actually had a pretty good conversation going there for awhile. But when they start playing dumb and not answering reasonable questions then the conversation has no merit in being pursued.

Except we may be able to help as Christians and can perhaps help persuade them to the truth. That's all I was doing. But these ones don't seem to want to talk about God or the unseen spiritual aspects of this life on earth. So what kind of atheists am I to take these to be?

I havent checked your profile but you sound like a Christian, so, you know there is scripture which says that all men can perceive God within themselves so there is no excuse, right? So I understand having doubts, Lord help my unbelief, but as Christians talking about the presence and types of atheists like you say, then we have to ask ourself if they will not discuss God or spiritualality, then why are they here? Can they be civil? Can they answer reasonable questions? Or shall we fall into over zealous political correctness, and oh dear, I've offended the poor man!? That's ridiculous ajust a bit. We're just two men of the earth talking like men talk.

I'm just a man. I'm no better than any atheist. I'm no better than you are or anyone. And others arent really better than me either. There is no difference between say, Donald Trump and a homeless man on the street. We are all in this together and are on a level playing field. Right Brother? We just have differnt paths to walk in life. .

I asked him some good questions. Him and the other one. And it's like they ignore that they understand the question and sort of this aloof little dance of words or sometimes with snide comments and sometimes just ignored. But if they are ignoring the conversation. That's odd for an atheist on a Christian forum! Are they trying to understand God to seek the real truth because they want to know?...because if not, why then?!

I say an atheist can wear pants like a man and stand on his own two feet as a man, and have a man to man conversation. Would that be correct? Sure seems so.

Ok so I did ask them some pretty pointed questions, but good questions. That's how men talk isn't it? I can try to take it easy on him a bit but when they do the occassional scoffing at my God indirectly, well things might get a little pointed then.
dunno, maybe you can do better than me at it. I'll talk to an atheist. Why not? They're just people.

 

[Divide]

Perhaps we should stay on topic.

Slinging insults around and mocking posters is, I think, against the spirit of Christian Forums, and probably against the flaming rule. When it comes to comprehension, however, one well known member has a point. I can't understand much of what he posts.

Sorry man, but they raised me to push back when I am pushed. It seems to be the way of the world. The solution to it is don't take offense. We are just men on the earth talking. To play the "I'm Hit!" card is a little childish between men, isn't it?

You guys haven't offended me. There was some indirect disparing of our God but not much. So don't take offense at the Christian men? Why not try to answer the questions and have a conversation instead of games. This is how men talk where I am from. Directly and asking good questions?

And you just made a statement that just rings of truth in it and I appreciate that, ok! So you are not comprehending some or most of what I have said? That's ok. I don't expect someone to know something that they have never been taught. Reasonable. So go ahead and ask me a good question? Or what did mean when you said...da da da whatever it was? Here I am brother. I'll talk to you, and straight. No offense intended! Just men talking.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Sure I see one SMH, but there were three or four more just like it, very short with only SMH quoted under different sections of my post where I spoke about God and so forth. I know what I read.

What are you talking about. THere are only 11 "words" in the post you replied to (my reply to you) Should all Christians support Uganda's newest anti LGBTQ+ legislation? Only 1 is "SMH" and as you can see from the post itself, it has not been edited.

Oh, you are right it was this other guy.



Oh so then you are an Atheist, you did say it here.



Wel, so maybe you thought what you had said wasn't entirely accurate how you posted it or something so that's why you took out the other (smh's)? Look all I know is what I read. In your post before it wasnt there anymore!

Again. I DIDN'T EDIT THE POST YOU ARE REFERRING TO. There is a little note "last edited xxx" in the lower corner if a post has been edited.

 

[PloverWing]

I havent checked your profile but you sound like a Christian, so, you know there is scripture which says that all men can perceive God within themselves so there is no excuse, right?

Indeed. Here's how I see that playing out in this conversation. If I am talking with an atheist, we are (by definition) going to disagree about whether God exists. But maybe we can agree on some other things. We might agree that the world is a better place if I treat other people the way I want to be treated -- it makes for a better society for all of us to live in. We might even agree that it's morally good to treat other people the way I want to be treated, and morally bad to harm another person without some morally compelling need for doing so. Speaking as a Christian, I would say that my atheist friend is perceiving something of God in this. (I do appreciate that an atheist would disagree with that last statement. )

So an atheist who says "I wouldn't want to be imprisoned, so I'm not going to imprison someone else without a compelling reason, and there's no compelling reason here" is acting according to an important principle of conscience. And I think the Ugandan legislature has lost sight of the important principle of loving one's neighbor as one's self, even though many of them are Christians.

 

[Whyayeman]

And you just made a statement that just rings of truth in it and I appreciate that, ok! So you are not comprehending some or most of what I have said? That's ok. I don't expect someone to know something that they have never been taught. Reasonable.

This is not really a matter of incomprehension. I was brought up in a religious family and attended church. I have a qualification in Religious Education. Nor is it ignorance. I have repudiated what I have been taught. Please understand that I am a non-believer, not out of ignorance but from a conscious rejection of Christianity specifically and religion in general. I hope this makes my position clear.

Back on topic, I agree with PloverWing:

... the Ugandan legislature has lost sight of the important principle of loving one's neighbor as one's self, even though many of them are Christians.

It appears to me that in siding with the Ugandan government's proposed law* there is a danger of falling into the same error, which is a serious business because Christians have been instructed to 'love your neighbour as yourself'.

*(which has failed to receive the Assent required from the President)