SHADOW LAWS OF THE OLD COVENANT FULFILLED IN THE NEW? COL 2

[tall73]

tall73, my last section of the post dealing with Numbers 28:9-10 KJB, please. I am falling asleep with all the non-sequitur you are presenting.

You were the one going off on a diatribe about Bacchiocchi. I was referencing him and Dale as a reference point for one type of argument. But I do not agree with him.

And I can hardly be said to be presenting a non-sequitur in this case. I laid out a point. You ignored it and responded to Bacchiocchi, then you want me to defend Bacchiocchi.

My point is that it is not going through a sequence. So arguing that the sequence starts with the daily is addressing Bacchiocchi, but is not actually addressing my point.

 

[tall73]

It is already established from Numbers 28:9-10 KJB, that the meat and drink offerings were "daily" [to which texts yourself brought attention to]:

Yes, they were daily. But there were also separate food and at times drink offerings associated with other sacrifices mandated by the various appointed times. These were offered along with the daily.

So it is not clear that it is only referencing daily, but could be referencing all the food and drink offerings throughout which are associated with the various moed.

 

[tall73]

meat and drink - of days, daily
feast days - of seasons, seasonal
new moons - of months, monthly
sabbath days - of years, yearly, 7 years, 50 years​

Now even if we take the food and drink only to refer to the daily, and not the various ones associated with the other moed as well, how does your sequence work?

you would have daily....once a year appointed times...monthly...every seven years/Jubilee.

The seasonal would happen less often than the monthly. So from your own rubric it should be manifest it is not a sequence.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

No it does not. Paul says "not under the law" two verses in a row (Rom 6:14, 15). Then in chap 7 says the law is dead and we are now delivered from the law. Paul says the same in Gal 5:18 and even to throw out the law in Gal 4:30. So you decide if it means obligation in anyway to the law for the Christian.

As an ex truck driver "being under" always meant obligated to. You promote obligation to the law demanding the 4th be kept.

bugkiller

Only God's WORD is true and we should believe and follow it over the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God.

Sorry BK God's WORD disagrees with you linked here CLICK ME....

The above thread shows your error in relation to your belief that God's LAW is abolished and the scriptures below show what God's WORD means when it says to be "UNDER THE LAW" it means to be guilty before God of breaking it.

What does it mean to be "UNDER THE LAW"?

It is true you are not "UNDER THE LAW" if you have REPENTED, CONFESSED, FORSAKEN your SINS and BELIEVE God's promise of FORGIVENESS (Prov 28:13; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 1 John 1:9) but if you are still practicing KNOWN UNREPETNANT SIN then you are still "UNDER THE LAW" and guilty of SIN (breaking God's LAW).

ROMANS 3:19-23
19, Now we know that what things soever the law said, it said to them who are UNDER THE LAW: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20, Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21, But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22, Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ to all and on all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23, For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God

God's LAW (10 Commandments) is to give us a KNOWLEDGE of what SIN is and lead us to JESUS (Gal 3:24-25) that we might be justified by FAITH. Not being "UNDER THE LAW" means your no longer under the CONDEMNATION of the LAW because you have been FOGIVEN for your SINS.

IF you are still CONTINUING in KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN you do not KNOW GOD because you have rejected his GIFT of SALVATION through his Son and you are still in your SINS.

Romans 2:12
For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

SIN is the breaking of God's Commandments (James 2:9-11; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4)

Those who CONTINUE in UNREPENTANT SIN will NOT enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN.

....................

CONCLUSION: To be "UNDER THE LAW" according to God's WORD means to be guilty before God of SIN and breaking God's LAW. Sin is the problem not God's LAW. As Paul says the commandment is HOLY, Just and Good (ROMANS 7:12)

Sorry BK, God's WORD disagrees with you

Can't stay now be back latter...

 

[tall73]

The above thread shows your error in relation to your belief that God's LAW is abolished and the scriptures below show what God's WORD means when it says to be "UNDER THE LAW" it means to be guilty before God of breaking it.

Please explain:

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Are you indicating that Jesus broke the law and was guilty of it?

 

[The7thColporteur]

Now even if we take the food and drink only to refer to the daily...

tall73. It is a yes/no question. If you want to continue with me, let's be frank with one another.

Here it is again:

"Do you acknowledge that the "in meat, or in drink" offerings are thus day by day [even evening and morning] in Numbers 28:9-10 and Colossians 2:16? There is no sense in starting in the middle, but is proper to start at the beginning of the list, now isn't it?"​

This is not a "... now if ...". The texts from Numbers 28:9-10 KJB were clearly cited. Colossians 2:16 then utilizes the same language. Therefore, I need a yes/no from you in regards the question asked.

 

[tall73]

tall73. It is a yes/no question. If you want to continue with me, let's be frank with one another.

Here it is again:

"Do you acknowledge that the "in meat, or in drink" offerings are thus day by day [even evening and morning] in Numbers 28:9-10 and Colossians 2:16? There is no sense in starting in the middle, but is proper to start at the beginning of the list, now isn't it?"​

This is not a "... now if ...". The texts from Numbers 28:9-10 KJB were clearly cited. Colossians 2:16 then utilizes the same language. Therefore, I need a yes/no from you in regards the question asked.

If it is yes or no, then it is clearly no.

Because food and drink offerings were not LIMITED to only the daily food and drink offerings.

However, we both acknowledge they were offered daily. But the terms do not refer ONLY to the daily food and drink offerings.

Now things like you are falling asleep, or "lets be frank", etc. is just rhetoric.

I am not responsible for your sleeping patterns.

I am not being less than frank. I am spelling out my position. You may respond to my position if you like.
You don't have to. And when you say if I want to continue....again, it is all voluntary. If you don't want to continue, then do not continue.

 

[tall73]

"Do you acknowledge that the "in meat, or in drink" offerings are thus day by day [even evening and morning] in Numbers 28:9-10 and Colossians 2:16?​

Note also in Ezekiel:

17 And it shall be the prince's part to give burnt offerings, and meat offerings, and drink offerings, in the feasts, and in the new moons, and in the sabbaths, in all solemnities of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the sin offering, and the meat offering, and the burnt offering, and the peace offerings, to make reconciliation for the house of Israel.​

The food and drink offerings are those associated with the moed.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Please explain:

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Are you indicating that Jesus broke the law and was guilty of it?

Not a problem the scripture says that the woman was made under the law "made of a woman made under the law". The woman was a sinner not Jesus. For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23; Romans 5:12). God's Son was made from sinful human flesh to become our perfect sacrifice and example.

ROMANS 8:3 [3], For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, GOD SENDING HIS OWN SON IN THE LIKENESS OF SINFUL FLESH, AND FOR SIN, condemned sin in the flesh:

All those who have a KNOWLEDGE of God's LAW are "UNDER THE LAW" because all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God and stand guilty before God of sin (accept Jesus). God's LAW gives the knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:19-20)

Hope this helps

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Except in that quote you start in vs. 4 of Lev. 23 for a reason...because vs. 2 already introduced the topic of feasts or appointed times (moed) and indicated the weekly sabbath. There is no doubt the sabbath had a prominent role in the text, but it is included by vs. 2.

23:1 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the Lord, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.
3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the Lord in all your dwellings.
4 These are the feasts of the Lord, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.

Hi tall73,

It is irrelavant whether God's 4th Commandment is mentioned in Leviticus 23. As the topic of Conversation of the OP is the SHADOW laws of the MOSAIC BOOK of the COVENANT not wheather Leviticus 23 includes God's 4th Commandment.

Of course Leviticus 23 includes God's 4th commandment some of the annual festivals went 7 days or longer and depending on the luna and yearly cycles some festivals or feast days would fall on God's 4th Commandments (known as a High Sabbath or High day) * John 19:31

The 4th of the Ten Commandments, is the only convocation day in Leviticus 23 that occurs more than once a year. It was not a day that originated with the Jews and the Ten Commandments at Sinai, it preceded them. The seventh day (weekly) Sabbath is the Sabbath of the Lord (Lev 23:3), a memorial to creation and the Creator established in Eden before the fall (Gen 2:1-3). Because it began at creation, before sin, and God's need for a plan of salvation with no intrinsic animal sacrifices associated with it, it is separate and distinct from the sabbaths of the yearly sacrificial feast calendar of the temple (Lev. 23:37-38) that ended with Christ's crucifixion, and were a shadow or type of some future event that would be their fulfillment, or antitype.

Hope this helps..

 

[LoveGodsWord]

If the sabbath is not a shadow law, what is Jesus offering in Mat 11:28-30 to sabbath keeping Jews, who God swore would not enter His rest?

bugkiller

Gospel rest. Please read the OP here it seems you haven't

Now BK, how can God's 4th Commandment be a SHADOW of anything?

Let's look at the scriptures and see why it cannot from another angle....

Genesis 2
1, Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2, And ON THE SEVENTH DAY God ended his work which he had made; and he RESTED ON THE SEVENTH DAY from all his work which he had made.
3, And GOD BLESSED THE SEVENTH DAY, and SANCTIFIED IT <the 7th day>: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Some points to note from the scriptures...............

v1 God completed creation in 6 days and RESTED on the 7TH DAY
v2 God RESTED on the 7TH DAY
v3 God SET APART the 7TH DAY and made THE 7TH DAY a HOLY DAY
v2 The 7TH DAY is part of the FINISHED WORK of the CREATION WEEK

Once again Genesis 2:1-3 supports Exodus 20:8-11 that the Sabbath is referring to the 7TH DAY OF THE WEEK not only a REST but the REST IS LINKED to the 7TH DAY which was part of the FINISHED WORK OF THE CREATION WEEK.

Questions:

Q. When the SABBATH was made was it an UNFINISHED WORK OR A FINISHED WORK?
A. v2 FINISHED WORK. If it is it part of a FINISHED WORK then it cannot be a SHADOW OF ANYTHING because it is a FINISHED WORK!

..............

Q. Was the Sabbath made BEFORE or AFTER SIN entered into the WORLD?
A. GENESIS 3 = THE SABBATH WAS MADE BEFORE SIN entered the WORLD. If it was made BEFORE SIN in a PERFECT CREATION in Harmony with GOD BEFORE SIN then it is not part of the PLAN of SALVATION so not a SHADOW of ANYTHING THEREFORE cannot be done away with and is not a part of something more then what it represents and that is God's as the CREATOR and GOD's CREATION.

This is where everything in your posting falls to pieces and the scriptures quoted in your post do not support your post because UNLIKE the MOSAIC book of the COVENANT God's SABBATH was made BEFORE SIN entered the WORLD and BEFORE a need for God's PLAN of salvation to which the SHADOWS pointed.

Hope this helps..

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Is the sabbath a holy day?
bugkiller

Indeed only God can judge you. That is why there will be a judgement for those who break God's Commandments and the standard in the Judgement will be the 10 Commandments (James 2:8-12)

 

[LoveGodsWord]

The sabbath is also spoken of as Israel's sabbath in Hos 2.

and again....

The sabbath is given specifically to Israel as Ex 31:13 and 17 illustrate.

bugkiller

ISRAEL in the NEW COVENANT are all those who BELIEVE God's WORD and FOLLOW it. If you are not a part of God's ISRAEL you have no part in the NEW COVENANT.

WHO ARE GOD'S ISRAEL IN THE NEW COVENANT?

GALATIANS 3:28-29 [28], THERE IS NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: FOR YOU ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS AND IF YOU BE CHRISTS, THEN YOU ARE ABRAHAM'S SEED FOR YOU ARE ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS [29], and IF YOU BE CHRISTS, THEN ARE YOU ABRAHAM'S SEED, AND HEIRS ACCORDING TO THE PROMISE.

No explanation needed, believe God's Word, and again...

ROMANS 9:6-8 [6], FOR THEY ARE NOT ALL ISRAEL WHICH ARE OF ISRAEL,: [7], NEITHER, BECAUSE THEY ARE THE SEED OF ABRAHAM, ARE THEY ALL CHILDREN: but in Isaac shall thy seed be called <Christ> [8], That is, THEY WHICH ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE FLESH, THESE ARE NOT THE CHILDREN OF GOD: BUT THE CHILDREN OF THE PROMISE <those who believe> ARE COUNTED FOR THE SEED.

ROMANS 2:28-29 [28], FOR HE IS NOT A JEW WHICH IS ONE OUTWARDLY; NEITHER IS THAT CIRCUMCISION, WHICH IS OUTWARDS IN THE FLESH: [29], BUT HE IS A JEW WHICH IS ONE INWARDLY; and CIRCUMCISION IS OF THE HEART, IN THE SPIRIT, AND NOT IN THE LETTER; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

God's Israel continued...

COLOSSIANS 3:11 [11], WHERE THERE IS NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: BUT CHRIST IS ALL IN ALL.

ROMANS 10:11-13 [11], For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. [12], FOR THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN JEW OR GREEK: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. [13], FOR WHOSOEVER SHALL CALL UPON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED.

The New Covenant is for God's Israel...

EZEKIEL 36:26-27 [26], A NEW HEART WILL I GIVE YOU, AND A NEW SPIRIT WILL I PUT WITHIN YOU; AND I WILL TAKE AWAY THE STONY HEART OUT OF YOUR FLESH, AND GIVE YOU A HEART OF FLESH. [27], AND I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT WITHIN YOU, AND CAUSE YOU TO WALK IN MY STATUTES AND YOU SHALL KEEP MY JUDGEMENTS AND DO THEM.

and again...

JEREMIAH 31:33-34 [33], BUT THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL; After those days, says the LORD, I WILL PUT MY LAW IN THEIR INWARD PARTS,AND WRITE IT IN THEIR HEARTS; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. [34], And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, says the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Paul proclaims it here...

HEBREWS 8:10-12 [10], BUT THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL; After those days, says the LORD, I WILL PUT MY LAW IN THEIR INWARD PARTS, AND WRITE IT IN THEIR HEARTS; and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: [11], And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. [12], For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

The NEW COVENANT is for GOD'S ISRAEL which represent those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God’s WORD. If you are not part of GOD'S ISRAEL then you are not a part of the NEW COVENANT (Hebrews 8:10-12).

GENTILES are now grafted in please read ROMANS 11:16-27

Seems God's WORD disagrees with you.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Ordinances are not religious rites. Ordinances are laws.

bugkiller

Ordinances are not the 10 Commandments. Please read the OP.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I disagree based on Acts 15 and Paul's repeated dealing with false brethren in some of his letters as well as the historical record of Acts shows us. Remember the issue was keeping the law of Moses in v 5.

I like addressing one item at a time.

bugkiller

The law of Moses is the topic of this OP. You are mixing up the SHADOW laws with God's eternal law (10 commandments). For example the jewish believers were arguing that the gentile believers could not be saved unless they were circumcised according to the law of Moses. This was the topic of dispute and the CONTEXT of Acts 15.

Please read the op before responding it will make it easier for you.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I have entered God's rest. You will say no based on nothing or because I do not keep the law.

bugkiller

No based on scripture that says none who brake God's Commandments enter his Sabbath rest. You cannot enter God's Sabbath rest if you do not enter God's Gospel rest. Those who break God's Commandments do not KNOW God and do not enter his Rest (Hebrews 4; 1 John 2:3-4; 1 John 3:3-10)

 

[LoveGodsWord]

What make you think I did not? Is it because you have not converted me yet?

If I ask you yes or no questions about the verses you posted, will you respond yes or no? If so it will be a first for you.

bugkiller

The answer to your question was in the very post you were quoting from.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

It sounds as though extra offerings were required on the weekly as well.

And it would seem that col. 2 refers to then

-Feasts (three pilgrim feasts)
-New moon
-Sabbaths, including Day of Atonement, trumpets, and weekly sabbath.

Hi Just getting back to this but yes it is indeed referring to the sin offerings for all of them.

If your arguing that COL 2 is referring to the 4th Commandment as being a SHADOW then NO it is not a Shadow as it is not a part of the MOSAIC Book of the COVENANT for remission of sin please read the OP (posts 1-5) it is one of God's 10 Commandments which are an everlasting Covenant.

EXODUS 31:13-17 [13], Speak also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths you shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that you may know that I am the LORD that does sanctify you. [14], You shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defiles it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever does any work on it, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. [15], Six days may work be done; but on the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever does any work on the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. [16], Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a EVERLASTING covenant. [17], It is a sign between me and the children of Israel forever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

New Living Translation
The people of Israel must keep the Sabbath day by observing it from generation to generation. This is a covenant obligation for all time.

English Standard Version
Therefore the people of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, observing the Sabbath throughout their generations, as a covenant forever.

New American Standard Bible
'So the sons of Israel shall observe the sabbath, to celebrate the sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant.'

King James Bible
Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

Christian Standard Bible
The Israelites must observe the Sabbath, celebrating it throughout their generations as a permanent covenant.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Let the children of Israel keep the sabbath, and celebrate it in their generations. It is an everlasting covenant

Darby Bible Translation
And the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations -- [it is] an everlasting covenant.

Now all of this links into the next key scripture as follows

............................

ISAIAH 66:22-23 [22], For as the NEW HEAVENS AND THE NEW EARTH, which I will make, shall remain before me, says the LORD, so shall your descendants and your name remain. [23], And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and FROM ONE SABBATH TO ANOTHER, shall all flesh come to worship before me, says the LORD.

............................

CONCLUSION: Yep the scriptures are pretty clear here that God's SABBATH is an EVERLASTING COVENANT that will be kept in the NEW EARTH. The SHADOW sabbaths however connected to the annual festivals are Shadows pointing to Jesus and God's plan of salvation (See OP)

 

[The7thColporteur]

If it is yes or no, then it is clearly no....

Thank you for your time. It is not worth my time to continue with you at this time - as I experience you as dishonest. Say what you will.

 

[The7thColporteur]

Colossians 2:1 KJB - For I would that ye knew what great conflict I have for you, and for them at Laodicea, and for as many as have not seen my face in the flesh;

Colossians 2:2 KJB - That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;

Colossians 2:3 KJB - In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

Colossians 2:4 KJB - And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words.

Colossians 2:5 KJB - For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.

Colossians 2:6 KJB - As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:

Colossians 2:7 KJB - Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

Colossians 2:8 KJB - Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Colossians 2:9 KJB - For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Colossians 2:10 KJB - And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

Colossians 2:11 KJB - In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

Colossians 2:12 KJB - Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Colossians 2:13 KJB - And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Colossians 2:14 KJB - Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Colossians 2:15 KJB - And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Colossians 2:16 KJB - Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Colossians 2:17 KJB - Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Colossians 2:18 KJB - Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

Colossians 2:19 KJB - And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.

Colossians 2:20 KJB - Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

Colossians 2:21 KJB - (Touch not; taste not; handle not;

Colossians 2:22 KJB - Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men?

Colossians 2:23 KJB - Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.