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SHADOW LAWS OF THE OLD COVENANT FULFILLED IN THE NEW? COL 2

Discussion in 'Sabbath and The Law' started by LoveGodsWord, May 3, 2018.

  1. bugkiller

    bugkiller Well-Known Member

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    Great post. Nice to see you.

    bugkiller
     
  2. tall73

    tall73 Sophia7's husband Supporter

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    Yeah, been a while, good to see you are still around here.

    I only stop by to check things out occasionally and for some reason this conversation caught my eye.
     
  3. bugkiller

    bugkiller Well-Known Member

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    No it does not. Paul says "not under the law" two verses in a row (Rom 6:14, 15). Then in chap 7 says the law is dead and we are now delivered from the law. Paul says the same in Gal 5:18 and even to throw out the law in Gal 4:30. So you decide if it means obligation in anyway to the law for the Christian.

    As an ex truck driver "being under" always meant obligated to. You promote obligation to the law demanding the 4th be kept.

    bugkiller
     
  4. bugkiller

    bugkiller Well-Known Member

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    I think you are correct because this is a list.

    bugkiller
     
  5. bugkiller

    bugkiller Well-Known Member

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    I disagree based on Acts 15 and Paul's repeated dealing with false brethren in some of his letters as well as the historical record of Acts shows us. Remember the issue was keeping the law of Moses in v 5.

    I like addressing one item at a time.

    bugkiller
     
  6. bugkiller

    bugkiller Well-Known Member

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    Ordinances are not religious rites. Ordinances are laws.

    bugkiller
     
  7. bugkiller

    bugkiller Well-Known Member

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    The sabbath is also spoken of as Israel's sabbath in Hos 2.

    bugkiller
     
  8. bugkiller

    bugkiller Well-Known Member

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    The sabbath is given specifically to Israel as Ex 31:13 and 17 illustrate.

    bugkiller
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2018
  9. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

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    Bacchiocci??? The man who got a degree from the [Jesuit] Gregorian University at Rome??? [but I already know what you have said on it - Beware, Jesuit Sam Bacchiocchi!]

    "... • The first (and apparently only) admission of a non-Catholic in the 422-year history (1551-1973) of the Pontifical Gregorian University. For this purpose, the special approval of the highest levels in the Jesuit Order would have to grant its approval. For such a remarkable “first” to occur, the paperwork would also have to pass across the desks of top echelons in the Vatican.

    • The young Adventist would receive an in-depth five (not four) year course of Jesuit instruction. All the intricacies of the Order, needed in order to carry out his future assignments, would be laid open before him.

    • In order to make him a Catholic-trained “specialist in early Sabbath-Sunday history,” it would be arranged that the young man would present his doctoral thesis on who changed the Bible Sabbath to Sunday and when it occurred. This would generate favorable excitement throughout the Adventist denomination.

    • Unlike most students, he would be honored with the gift of a gold medal, by the reigning pope, for his “outstanding scholarship.”

    • For the first time in its entire history, the Pontifical Gregorian University would publish a book by a Protestant.

    • The book would receive the Imprimatur of Rome (“Imprimatur: Romae, die 16 Iuniit 1975, R.P. Hervé Carrier, S.I., Rector Universitatis. Con approvazione del Vacariato di Roma, in data 17 giugno 1975”). “Imprimatur” means that everything within the book contains orthodox Roman Catholic doctrine and is safe for a Catholic to read.

    • The book received a two-page preface by Vincenzo Monachino, S.J., Chairman of the Church History Department, Pontifical Gregorian University. More on what Monachino said in the preface, below.

    Samuele Bacchiocchi is the first and only Seventh-day Adventist to personally receive not only a gold medal from the pope, a complete training in the Jesuit headquarter’s training school, but also a Jesuit imprimatur (meaning accurate, doctrinally approved, and safe for Catholic readers). ..." - http://omega77.tripod.com/bacc1vf.htm

    The same man who denied, in that same literature [Sabbath to Sunday], the SDA Bible Commentary, which is filled with the SoP/ToJ, which immediately disqualifies him [Isaiah 8:20 KJB], and not only so, also denied other things, such as the 666 as belonging to VICARIVS FILII DEI, etc, and numerous other positions??? That Bacchiocci??? - Samuele Bacchiocchi: Which "Sabbath" Does He Truly Support?

    http://www.sdadefend.com/MINDEX-B/Bacch.pdf

    When I came into the Seventh-day Adventist faith I was naive about such things, but now I am wiser, by the grace of God.

    However, that "Bacchiocci" didn't start with the proper order in the text, which is to say the daily meat and drink offerings, which throws off the claim of "Bacchiocci", "Dale", yourself and any other that makes such a similar claim:

    meat and drink - of days, daily
    feast days - of seasons, seasonal
    new moons - of months, monthly
    sabbath days - of years, yearly, 7 years, 50 years​

    It's easy to just pick and choose what one wants to get to a conclusion they desire, but that is no evidence of Bible [KJB] study.

    It is already established from Numbers 28:9-10 KJB, that the meat and drink offerings were "daily" [to which texts yourself brought attention to]:

    Numbers 28:1 KJB - And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

    Numbers 28:2 KJB - Command the children of Israel, and say unto them, My offering, and my bread for my sacrifices made by fire, for a sweet savour unto me, shall ye observe to offer unto me in their due season.

    Numbers 28:3 KJB - And thou shalt say unto them, This is the offering made by fire which ye shall offer unto the LORD; two lambs of the first year without spot day by day, for a continual burnt offering.

    Numbers 28:4 KJB - The one lamb shalt thou offer in the morning, and the other lamb shalt thou offer at even;

    Numbers 28:5 KJB - And a tenth part of an ephah of flour for a meat offering, mingled with the fourth part of an hin of beaten oil.

    Numbers 28:6 KJB - It is a continual burnt offering, which was ordained in mount Sinai for a sweet savour, a sacrifice made by fire unto the LORD.

    Numbers 28:7 KJB - And the drink offering thereof shall be the fourth part of an hin for the one lamb: in the holy place shalt thou cause the strong wine to be poured unto the LORD for a drink offering.

    Numbers 28:8 KJB - And the other lamb shalt thou offer at even: as the meat offering of the morning, and as the drink offering thereof, thou shalt offer it, a sacrifice made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD.
    Do you acknowledge that the "in meat, or in drink" offerings are thus day by day [even evening and morning] in Numbers 28:9-10 and Colossians 2:16? There is no sense in starting in the middle, but is proper to start at the beginning of the list, now isn't it?
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2018
  10. bugkiller

    bugkiller Well-Known Member

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    Is the sabbath a holy day?

    bugkiller
     
  11. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

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    I agree. Jesus is the real Israel, the True Man, the True Adam [Matthew 2:13-15; Hebrews 2:9-13; John 16:13; Revelation 3:21; 1 Corinthians 15:46; Romans 9:6-8; Galatians 6:16; Hebrews 13:10 KJB], His disciples [Matthew 12:46-50; Mark 14:14; Luke 14:26,27,33, 22:11; John 8:31, 13:35, 15:8] are His children [Isaiah 8:8-20, 56:1,8; Luke 10:16; Isaiah 56:2-7; Romans 9:6-8 KJB] -

    Matthew 5:18 KJB - For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.​

    [Jesus is Israel part 1] - COL 2:14-17 The REAL truth from God's Word

    [Jesus is Israel part 2] - COL 2:14-17 The REAL truth from God's Word

    [Jesus is Israel part 3] - COL 2:14-17 The REAL truth from God's Word

    [Jesus is Israel part 4] - COL 2:14-17 The REAL truth from God's Word

    [Jesus is Israel part 5] - COL 2:14-17 The REAL truth from God's Word
     
  12. bugkiller

    bugkiller Well-Known Member

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    I would say no because gentiles generally did not eat kosher as required by the law.

    Again this Issue is the Judaizers.

    bugkiller
     
  13. bugkiller

    bugkiller Well-Known Member

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  14. tall73

    tall73 Sophia7's husband Supporter

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    I think you missed the point.

    a. I do not agree with Bacchiocchi
    b. I do not think it is a progressive list.

    It is not broken down by time period. It is broken down by types of appointed times. There were feasts, and there were sabbaths, and there were new moons.

    The sabbaths could be the weekly, could be the Day of Atonement, trumpets, etc. as each were said to be sabbaths.

    You have not pointed out where the 7 year rest of land, etc. appear in either Lev. 23 or Numbers 28-29.
     
  15. bugkiller

    bugkiller Well-Known Member

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    If the sabbath is not a shadow law, what is Jesus offering in Mat 11:28-30 to sabbath keeping Jews, who God swore would not enter His rest?

    bugkiller
     
  16. tall73

    tall73 Sophia7's husband Supporter

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    We would agree that Bacchiocchi disagreed with Adventist theology on a number of points. I referenced him and Ratzlaff to highlight that some think it is a different order, but still think it is about an order. You seem to have read Bacchiocchi and fixated on that, going off on a tangeant!

    My point was that chag is used of the pilgrim feasts only, and the sabbaths are distinct from the feasts. It is not about progressive time periods either direction, but about types of appointed times.

    Have you ever read Rod Du Preez, or D. J. Conklin's work on the subject? Conklin frequented this sight for a while, so you might be familiar with him.
     
  17. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

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    Those who do not "remember" to keep the Sabbath of the LORD holy, seem to not "remember" other things as well:

    You have been answered already. I pray you do not pretend otherwise, as Truth does not change, and is eternal [Psalms 119:142 KJB].
     
  18. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

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    You never have [and probably never will at this rate, though I hope, I pray it is not in vain], but I have indeed cited the evidence from the scripture [KJB].
     
  19. tall73

    tall73 Sophia7's husband Supporter

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    Except in that quote you start in vs. 4 of Lev. 23 for a reason...because vs. 2 already introduced the topic of feasts or appointed times (moed) and indicated the weekly sabbath. There is no doubt the sabbath had a prominent role in the text, but it is included by vs. 2.

    23:1 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
    2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the Lord, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.
    3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the Lord in all your dwellings.
    4 These are the feasts of the Lord, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.
     
  20. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

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    tall73, my last section of the post dealing with Numbers 28:9-10 KJB, please. I am falling asleep with all the non-sequitur you are presenting.
     
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