Sexuality - isn't it natural?

Skaloop

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yea well my wife and i waited til we married and we been married 2 years now and our sex life is wonderful

Yeah, well, my wife and I didn't wait until we got married and we've been married for nine years now and our sex life is wonderful. It was wonderful for the three years before we got married, too.
 
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razeontherock

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Im not ignorant about them ; I wanted to be one for a good 10 adult years, Ive read all the atheist books from notable authors who claim to be atheist themselves, I hang around people who like to label themselves as an atheist, and ive read the Bible many times on passages that dissect atheism including the motives for wanting to be One. Im very informed as to the ins and outs of atheism and the practice of it.

Dave, you are using the word "atheist" in a way that atheists don't use it. I do the same thing with "religion," in that I profess not to be religious, so I know where you're coming from and what your point is. I'm just saying, choose your battles. In my case I do, and it usually gets the point across to those that are reasonable. I'm not sure your particular battle will succeed, but I would hope atheists could be reasonable enough to see your point (which is not at all difficult)
 
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razeontherock

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That's nice. I exist whether or not he believes in me.

Ditto the reverse

Don't presume to dictate to me what I think.

Why not? You do it all the time. Turnabout's fair play ...

Fun that hurts no-one cannot be in any sensible way seen as immoral.

And here you prop up strawman god as the bearded guy in the sky that just wants to make sure nobody ever has any fun. You also conflate His righteousness with your own concept of morality, and the two don't even necessarily have any relationship
 
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Skavau

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Ditto the reverse
Uh, okay. So? Never suggested otherwise.

Why not? You do it all the time. Turnabout's fair play ...
You can't help but bring your petty grievances everywhere, can you? It is funny how I never see you condemn another Christian for putting words in people's mouth but find it in yourself to claim it for every atheist you debate with.

And here you prop up strawman god as the bearded guy in the sky that just wants to make sure nobody ever has any fun.
I didn't say that at all. I was responding to "TheyCallMeDave" who was using the term "immoral fun" (which if you read any of his stuff, involves victimless acts).

You also conflate His righteousness with your own concept of morality, and the two don't even necessarily have any relationship
Whatever this means ^.
 
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razeontherock

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It is funny how I never see you condemn another Christian for putting words in people's mouth but find it in yourself to claim it for every atheist you debate with.

Which particular logical fallacy is this? Never say never? Reducto ad absurdium? Anyway putting words in other people's mouths is not a petty grievance
 
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Skavau

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Which particular logical fallacy is this? Never say never? Reducto ad absurdium? Anyway putting words in other people's mouths is not a petty grievance
You didn't commit a logical fallacy, you're just massively biased and it shows.

When you take your time to jump on things I say in another thread to another person over disagreements between you and I in a different thread - that is a petty grievance.
 
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Tiberius

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I'm a Christian, abstinent, and not planning on changing either one of those things. However, my major is Health and Wellness so I've been learning a lot about human physiology lately, including sex. Puberty is a complicated and confusing time for people. Sexual desires are a result of our brain chemistry and hormones, right? Can we really fault a pre-teen boy (or girl) for giving in and masturbating once or twice? Isn't it just a natural human function to be sexually curious? Also, it's unhealthy to suppress your sexual urges and hate yourself, especially during a time as tumultuous as puberty.

I guess the sexual aspects of Christianity are the ones that confuse me most. I'm not a very sexual person at all; totally looking forward to waiting until marriage or dying a virgin. However, I just can't wrap my head around certain things - such as masturbation, sexual curiosity - as being wrong.

Thoughts?

That's a very wise position you've taken. Just because it's not what you want for yourself, doesn't mean that it's wrong. And if you don't want to go out and have sex with people just yet, or touch or any of that stuff, that's fine too. It's good that you aren't saying that this stuff is therefore bad for other people.

Well done! You;ve got a very enlightened attitude! :thumbsup:
 
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my 2 cents for the OP (note, posting from glitchy phone, forgive typos):

Read the song of solomon some time... Sexuality is not inherently sinful, the misuse of it is. God made us naked and his first commandment was "fill the earth!" throughout the bible, he reminds husbands that our body is not our own, but belngs to our wife, likewise the wife's body is not her own, but belongs to her husband. To deprive eachother is against god's word... this isn't exactly on topic, but should illustrate that sex (in the right context) was god's idea.

so sexual curiosity and fantasy during puberty seems natural. acting upon it can be harmful, and thus immoral... but to tell a child that their bodyis sinful and shameful... how can that do anything but poison God's gift of sexuality later in life?

as far as masturbation goes... again, there are ways for it to be wrong... fantasizing about cheating or hurting someone or otherwise sinning, is a sign of a sinful nature and is wrong... if a husband masturbates so much that he doesn't have time for his wife or other responsibilties, that's no good... but the act itself isn't to blame because some may desire the proper use of their spouce, rather than something sinful.
 
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Jane_the_Bane

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I'm a Christian, abstinent, and not planning on changing either one of those things. However, my major is Health and Wellness so I've been learning a lot about human physiology lately, including sex. Puberty is a complicated and confusing time for people. Sexual desires are a result of our brain chemistry and hormones, right? Can we really fault a pre-teen boy (or girl) for giving in and masturbating once or twice? Isn't it just a natural human function to be sexually curious? Also, it's unhealthy to suppress your sexual urges and hate yourself, especially during a time as tumultuous as puberty.

I guess the sexual aspects of Christianity are the ones that confuse me most. I'm not a very sexual person at all; totally looking forward to waiting until marriage or dying a virgin. However, I just can't wrap my head around certain things - such as masturbation, sexual curiosity - as being wrong.

Thoughts?

I think Christianity owes most of its blatant anti-sexuality stance to cultural influences that prevailed in the late Roman empire (about the same time as the Church's rise from an obscure sect to the domineering world view):

(Proto-)Judaism, while VERY concerned about adultery (as a violation of a man's property rights), never betrayed the kind of anti-sex attitude that has come to dominate the Christian mainstream up to the present day.
If you're looking for the world views that contributed to that particular phenomenon, look no further than Stoicism and Gnosticism.
Stoicism embraced an ascetic approach to life, and tended to frown upon sex. Gnosticism, in turn, embraced an oriental dualism that conceived of the material world as evil (and diametrically opposed to the realm of "spirit".)

As a result, the ascendant Church tended to condemn sexuality in general: the Vulgate translation turned the apostles' wives into their "sisters"; aspiring priests were first asked not to marry (or, if they were already married, to basically abstain from any marital relations after taking their vows), and later on compelled to be celibate (with certain popes actually suggesting that the offspring of priests ought to be sold into slavery as an example). And notable church fathers (Augustinus etc.) wrote at great length about the evils of sexuality, suggesting that marital intercourse was tolerable at best - but only if it was intended for the purpose of begetting children, NOT for the sake of any pleasure taken in the act.


This legacy persists to this day in many ways - as does the assumption that sexuality in general tends to be anti-spiritual, mundane, or even downright degrading.
Now, that's not to say that sexuality cannot be degrading, mundane, or anti-spiritual. We needn't look far in order to find examples of this. But in many ways, this has become a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy, as people are blinded to the deeply spiritual and benevolent aspects of sexuality. (As evidenced by the fact that the most sexually repressed societies also happen to be the ones where the "sexual underground" is at its strongest and most bizarre: no country produces more inappropriate contentography than the Christian United States, for example - certainly not secular Europe with its vastly more liberal attitudes to sexuality. And no country is more bizarre than Japan, where even kissing in public is a HUGE taboo, yet people buy used schoolgirl panties as a fetish.)

In short: Christianity's obsession with virginity strikes me as quite unhealthy in many cases. And its summary condemnation of, for example, masturbation is pretty much untenable, even if you try to justify the taboo by means of strict monogamy. (After all, masturbation does not necessarily require sexual fantasies involving a specific person and/or somebody other than one's partner/spouse.)
 
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razeontherock

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I think Christianity owes most of its blatant anti-sexuality stance to

:(

Cultural practices aside, there is no such thought conveyed in the text. Merely very strict boundaries of where it is and is not ok; namely, within marriage. (As between one man and one woman)

in many ways, this has become a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy, as people are blinded to the deeply spiritual and benevolent aspects of sexuality.

You are unaware of the Christian teaching on this? Many Churches actively instruct their married couples, and not just the young ones. You have read the Song of Solomon?

its summary condemnation of, for example, masturbation

This is not at all Church-wide. In fact, any thread on the subject, many posters will be seen refuting that point.
 
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Jane_the_Bane

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:(

Cultural practices aside, there is no such thought conveyed in the text. Merely very strict boundaries of where it is and is not ok; namely, within marriage. (As between one man and one woman)
Actually, the Bible is flamboyantly polytheistic throughout most of its many heterogeneous books. Likewise, it contains specific rules about how to treat your slave concubines, how to deal with their offspring and so on and so forth. Just sayin'!

It seems there's lots of "cultural practices" at work in your reading of the text. Except that your particular perspective is skewed by conservative middle class ideology originating in the 1700s. ;)

You are unaware of the Christian teaching on this? Many Churches actively instruct their married couples, and not just the young ones. You have read the Song of Solomon?
I've also read many an exegesis that interpreted the Song of Solomon as anything but sexual, insisting that only the most carnal and unregenerate minds would detect such a mean and debased meaning in the text.
Why, that whole book is obviously only about Christ's marriage to the Church, and the sentiments therein have got nothing to do with erotic desire.

Also, keep in mind that Catholicism (which, apart from Puritanism and its descendants, easily accounts for the most blatantly anti-sexual faction within Christianity) accounts for roughly 1.2 billion Christians, and many Protestant denominations are even more rigid when it comes to this particular topic.

This is not at all Church-wide. In fact, any thread on the subject, many posters will be seen refuting that point.
They do not refute it. They merely show that in the vast hodgepodge that is Christianity, other positions exist as well.

In a way, you've got early Christianity to blame for the whole "sex =carnal and evil"-nonsense. As they were awaiting the imminent end of the world at any moment, they saw sexuality as a waste of time, and encouraged people to focus on more productive preparations for the World To Come. ("But if you cannot help it", Paul argues, "go and get yourself married, lest your incessant pining saps your energy as effectively as the most blatant indulgence of desire.")
 
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razeontherock

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Actually, the Bible is flamboyantly polytheistic throughout most of its many heterogeneous books. Likewise, it contains specific rules about how to treat your slave concubines, how to deal with their offspring and so on and so forth. Just sayin'!

It seems there's lots of "cultural practices" at work in your reading of the text. Except that your particular perspective is skewed by conservative middle class ideology originating in the 1700s. ;)

No Jane. It is "skewed" by understanding the relationship of NT vs OT, as it pertains to Christianity. If you would like to assert your point, you will be furnishing examples of polygamous NT mentors, as well as NT instructions to that end. Can't do it? Then you must concede the point.

Now if what you mean to say is that Jews could / should be polygamous / polyamorous per their texts ...

I've also read many an exegesis that interpreted the Song of Solomon as anything but sexual, insisting that only the most carnal and unregenerate minds would detect such a mean and debased meaning in the text.
Why, that whole book is obviously only about Christ's marriage to the Church, and the sentiments therein have got nothing to do with erotic desire.

But of course it is obviously romantic and erotic literature. Your point here is what? That stuffed shirts exist?

Also, keep in mind that Catholicism (which, apart from Puritanism and its descendants, easily accounts for the most blatantly anti-sexual faction within Christianity)

They teach healthy sexuality to their married couples. An odd stance on birth control, but as a means of having lots of sex

They do not refute it. They merely show that in the vast hodgepodge that is Christianity, other positions exist as well.

I beg your pardon; as I used it, "refute" is perfectly correct. Many C posters are seen in any thread on masturbation, refuting the point that it is a sin.

In a way, you've got early Christianity to blame for the whole "sex =carnal and evil"-nonsense.

Well, yes. And yet, the practice of self-castration for this purpose was rejected.

As they were awaiting the imminent end of the world at any moment, they saw sexuality as a waste of time, and encouraged people to focus on more productive preparations for the World To Come. ("But if you cannot help it", Paul argues, "go and get yourself married, lest your incessant pining saps your energy as effectively as the most blatant indulgence of desire.")

That's a mis-attribution to Paul, but the general prioritization of values is what is stated, yes.
 
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Jane_the_Bane

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They teach healthy sexuality to their married couples.

No. In essence, their teachings on the topic still echo St. Augustine, whose stance boiled down to: "Sex is a grievous sin, marriage makes it tolerable to God, but ONLY for the purpose of begetting children, and with as little pleasure involved as possible."

In fact, up until the early 19th century, Catholics were required to tell their confessors exactly how they'd had sex with their spouses: what positions were used? How many times? For how long? What did you think at the time? What about your feelings?

There were elaborate catalogues on just what penances were appropriate for each item on the list.

These practices have fallen out of use due to middle class squeamishness, but the general stance has not changed in the least.
 
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razeontherock

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No. In essence, their teachings on the topic still

If what you say is true, then RC is entirely different on your side of the pond. I have no idea what the Pope's stance on this issue may or may not be, nor do I really care ^_^ Normally they form a monolithic block, but maybe not on this point? I could find out easily enough ... what's your source, for current teaching within the RCC in EU?
 
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Michaelismyname

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How do you know?
Do you have proof for either of these?
why would i give reply to you?
you carry the title of the wiccan -the craft of taking that which is staright
-and twisting it.
you walk in chosen rebellion to the truth of the lord Jesus, choosing to beleive your own will rather then be obedient to the will of the one true living most High God.
hence any given answer you will take and twist to suit your own ends .

if you truley wished to know the answer to these questions in regard to what i spoke of.you first must repent of your unbeleif- believe on the lord Jesus and be born again of water and of Spirit- until you repent you will never comprehend the answers given -just as- "light came into the darkness but the darkness did not comprehend it-(John ch 1.)so in unrepentance, you will remain in darkness.
 
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Michaelismyname

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This question seems to have gotten dodged.
clarify your question -define Love by your understanding
then ask the question again.
because the expression of intamacy between husband and wife
and godly "LOVE" are ,in christianity -two different things.
 
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