"SEX" vs Romance & Spirit Led Intimacy

[forcedelune]

The guru or getting it on, the friar of the freaky-deaky, the sultan of the horizontal swing. All hail the king! Here, Here!!

Nooo, the master of spam posts has found me once more. Oh, well.

 

[apache1]

Nooo, the master of spam posts has found me once more. Oh, well.

Spam is the "National Dish" of Hawaii!!

 

[forcedelune]

Well, do you think putting your wife over your knee and spanking her (or her spanking you) is o.k. for "spice" in marriage, or only for disobedient youngin's? Before you think what I'm writing is kinky and a little off base, it certainly isn't any stranger than one writing that they think age of consent should be 12 years old and 40 years old men should be able to marry 12 or 13 year old girls (but not mentioned whether 12 year old boys can marry 40 year old cougars).

If you're honest with yourself...you would have to admit, at the very least, that my perspective is in line with most believers and the Bible for the past 6000 years of history. If you are saying that my views on marriage age, in the other thread, is something "strange"...then you would have to call strange most every godly man in Scripture and for the past 6000 years in which it was the norm to be married at child bearing age. I guess in your view Joseph, who married the mother of Jesus when she was between the ages of 12-14 (average marriage date for most of human history) was a pervert in some way?

You, sir, are the one out of line with Scripture and most godly men for generations...not I. The only standing you could have to disagreeing with my points on marriage age would be standards handed down to you from the World and not from Scripture. When a man disregards Scripture and turns his back on most Christians before him in generations past, for the sake of what his current culture's standards say is natural or good...that is a man it would be more appropriate for a believer to avoid taking advice from, in my view.

I happen to believe the Bible is " given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. [2 Timothy 3:16-17]

I'm seeing a person labeling arguably most Christian and Jewish husbands (throughout history), as well as the Bible itself, as being "strange" simply because the world has gradually pushed such a philosophy down our throat just in the last 100 years (primarily in American society). It's called the "forbidding of marriage" and Paul predicted it would be a phenomenon in the last generation before His Coming. [1 Timothy 4:1-3]

I also see a person disrupting one thread by discussing another thread. Not cool, but I'm trying to juggle and not get too far off base. It would be better if you added your disagreement on that point to the other thread, in my opinion.

 

[forcedelune]

To forcedelune. I'd ask a moderator to move this topic to the Advice section here:
http://www.christianforums.com/f232/

I say this because your message might be lost in this current section since non-believers are allowed to post. Unless of course your message was for them too. But most of the members stick the advice section for topics like this.

Thank you for the advice. I'll keep that in mind for now. I just didn't think anyone who doesn't even believe in a standard of right and wrong would have any reason to even post on a forum on Ethics & Morality...other than to antagonize, I guess.

 

[apache1]

If you're honest with yourself...you would have to admit, at the very least, that my perspective is in line with most believers and the Bible for the past 6000 years of history. If you are saying that my views on marriage age, in the other thread, is something "strange"...then you would have to call strange most every godly man in Scripture and for the past 6000 years in which it was the norm to be married at child bearing age. I guess in your view Joseph, who married the mother of Jesus when she was between the ages of 12-14 (average marriage date for most of human history) was a pervert in some way?

You, sir, are the one out of line with Scripture and most godly men for generations...not I. The only standing you could have to disagreeing with my points on marriage age would be standards handed down to you from the World and not from Scripture. When a man disregards Scripture and turns his back on most Christians before him in generations past, for the sake of what his current culture's standards say is natural or good...that is a man it would be more appropriate for a believer to avoid taking advice from, in my view.

I happen to believe the Bible is " given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. [2 Timothy 3:16-17]

I'm seeing a person labeling arguably most Christian and Jewish husbands (throughout history), as well as the Bible itself, as being "strange" simply because the world has gradually pushed such a philosophy down our throat just in the last 100 years (primarily in American society). It's called the "forbidding of marriage" and Paul predicted it would be a phenomenon in the last generation before His Coming. [1 Timothy 4:1-3]

I also see a person disrupting one thread by discussing another thread. Not cool, but I'm trying to juggle and not get too far off base. It would be better if you added your disagreement on that point to the other thread, in my opinion.

Hear ye, hear ye, the Great and Powerful Oz has just spoken!!! Oh forgive me, oh wise one, for besmirching thy honor. On a more serious note, some 40 year old sleazeball came to me asking for my 12 year old's hand in marriage, he would be lucky if only his teeth were missing (and no, I don't equate Joseph with said sleazeball)

 

[apache1]

If you're honest with yourself...you would have to admit, at the very least, that my perspective is in line with most believers and the Bible for the past 6000 years of history. If you are saying that my views on marriage age, in the other thread, is something "strange"...then you would have to call strange most every godly man in Scripture and for the past 6000 years in which it was the norm to be married at child bearing age. I guess in your view Joseph, who married the mother of Jesus when she was between the ages of 12-14 (average marriage date for most of human history) was a pervert in some way?

You, sir, are the one out of line with Scripture and most godly men for generations...not I. The only standing you could have to disagreeing with my points on marriage age would be standards handed down to you from the World and not from Scripture. When a man disregards Scripture and turns his back on most Christians before him in generations past, for the sake of what his current culture's standards say is natural or good...that is a man it would be more appropriate for a believer to avoid taking advice from, in my view.

I happen to believe the Bible is " given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. [2 Timothy 3:16-17]

I'm seeing a person labeling arguably most Christian and Jewish husbands (throughout history), as well as the Bible itself, as being "strange" simply because the world has gradually pushed such a philosophy down our throat just in the last 100 years (primarily in American society). It's called the "forbidding of marriage" and Paul predicted it would be a phenomenon in the last generation before His Coming. [1 Timothy 4:1-3]

I also see a person disrupting one thread by discussing another thread. Not cool, but I'm trying to juggle and not get too far off base. It would be better if you added your disagreement on that point to the other thread, in my opinion.

On the other hand, I don't see too much "forbidding of marriage" nowadays, if anything has expanded to include same sex marriage (yuck, but I ain't gay), and seems to be push in some circles now to revive polygamy. Frankly, I don't care if you think I'm a troll, "not cool", full of spam, whatever, I write what I darn well please. From one admittedly arrogant prima donna to another.....have a good night!

 

[Ana the Ist]

Finally found the proper section of the forum to start this discussion. My apologies to the Mod's and Admins that I've been kind of the lone wanderer from topic to topic on this one. Thank you for helping me to get this discussion started in the most appropriate place. So, here we go.

Being one who enjoys frequenting Christian forums...from time to time, I've come across a number of posts in which people were discussing topics such as exactly what kind of "sex" is acceptable, good, and pure after (when) you're married. Well, even though these were Christian message boards, sadly the posts often start to get pretty graphic and inappropriate. At the risk of being judged as naive or unrealistic, I'd like to present my perspective on this issue of what is/is not "sexually right" to do in the marriage bed and hopefully we can have a good discussion on the topic.

First, let's make it clear that the Scriptures do teach how the world has a corrupted version of God's original plan for marital intimacy...or at least shows us where the foundation of such degradation first began. Take a look with me at the following passage of Scripture (my comments in {}'s):

"Therefore God gave them up in the lusts {ungodly desires} of their own hearts to sexual {anything, related to the body, that God has set apart as private from the opposite sex} impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves. Because they exchanged the truth of God {or the leading of His Spirit} for a lie and worshiped and served the creature {body} rather than the Creator {spirit}...For this reason God gave them over and abandoned them to vile affections and degrading passions. For their women exchanged their natural function for an unnatural or abnormal one {temple/body prostitution}..." [Romans 1:24-26]

So what points can we pull out of these scriptures, which may not already seem so apparent, but are the obvious outcome over time?

1) The world's view and approach to marital intimacy is based on a lie. What lie? That marital intimacy should be led by/focused on the body (our outer/physical temple)- rather than the spirit. While the body is a beautiful gift from the Lord (and to your spouse), it was never intended to be your primary focus during intimacy.

First we should be focused on the spirit (prayerful, mindful, thankful, and worshipful toward the Lord), then heart (seeking and being sensitive to meet your partner's most intimate longings), then soul (being considerate to your partner's thoughts, desires, and feelings), and then body (sensual pleasures and conception). I should not have an out of balance focus on my partner's body (in effect, lusting in the flesh), rather than longing to touch her heart. I'll explain this further as we go.

2) The body should be honored- not dishonored. So there are things we can do, in the marriage bed, which actually dishonor our body (and His body...being that we are a member of His Church).

3) There is a natural and unnatural use for our body, in the context of marital intimacy.

4) There are some things that can be done in the marriage bed which are vile or degrading (to one or both parties).

"Let marriage be held in honor in all things. And thus let the marriage bed be undefiled (kept undishonored); for God will judge and punish the unchaste {Greek- inappropriate contentos} (all guilty of sexual vice) and adulterous." [Hebrews 13:4]

What can we glean from this verse?

1) Every aspect of marriage (including the marriage bed and marital intimacy) should be held (talked about and acted toward) in honor.

2) The marriage bed can be defiled by certain activities- such as sexual vice {inappropriate contentos} (wrong sexual conduct) and adultery.

Now, for the obvious question...how do we (as believers) determine what is true, honorable, pure, chaste, right, and natural in the marriage bed? The same way we always should in every area of our lives- being led by His Spirit and by His Word.

"So then, brethren, we are debtors, but not to the flesh (we are not obligated to our carnal nature) to live (a life ruled by the standards set up by the dictates) of the flesh...but if through the power of the Holy Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the flesh you shall (experience) true life. For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God." [Romans 8:12-14]

"Every scripture is God breathed and profitable for instruction, for reproof and conviction of sin, for correction of error and discipline in obedience, and for training in righteousness (in holy living, in conformity to God's will in thought, purpose, and action)." [2 Timothy 3:16]

The world has, sadly, influenced the Church so much in this area that we often talk and act like they do (commonly saying things like "having sex" to refer to the fleshly act, using scientific/cold/flesh focused names for certain private parts of the body, focusing first on the physical rather than the spirit). Now I'm not discussing medical terminology (that's another subject), but rather within the context of marital intimacy. I'm also not saying that it is "sinful" to use such expressions...it's just not as meaningful and respectful as I feel God intended it to be.

Does Scripture exemplify this type of attitude toward intimacy in marriage?

The world (who is led by Satan) has taken this very holy & spiritually significant area of our life and has made it seem secular in nature. This is that which represents the very union of Christ and His Church- which brings about an opening of this veil between the spirit realm and the flesh realm (conception). Such an awe inspiring and sacred experience should never be secularized and talked about matter-of-factly in the context of marriage. Should it?

This very special time should be likened more to when one entered into the "Holy of Holies" (behind that mysterious veil in the Old Testament temple)- where God's Spirit would pass through that veil, which separated the spirit and physical realm. Intimacy within marriage is (should be) a holy activity and is the beginning of a mysterious time when a child is able to pass into our world from the spirit realm. Please, pause and take a moment to think about this. Such a holy and awesome experience should not be just "openly" and casually talked about or acted upon, should it?

I know this may be hard to swallow, being that most of us have been ingrained and educated to be desensitized or "open" when it comes to this very private and holy subject of marital intimacy, but shall we open the bedroom door as well and let everybody have a look? So why should we continue to do it with our words? Why should we continue to unclothe before others what God has told us to cover?

There's a reason that marital intimacy is supposed to be private. God designed it that way. This is why inappropriate contentography violates our conscience (a healthy one at least) like it does. Within the next post, we'll begin addressing what Scripture has to say about (and how to be Spirit led in) marital intimacy.

You may still be asking, what this has to do with "Ethics & Morality" at this point...bear with me, because I'm going somewhere and you'll see the relevance in the end. Your thoughts on what's been said so far?

Like others have pointed out....the point of this thread is somewhat confusing. I'll start here....

" Such an awe inspiring and sacred experience should never be secularized and talked about matter-of-factly in the context of marriage. Should it?"

Why not? What's wrong with discussing sex? I don't discuss my sexual relations between my wife and I with anyone...however, past sexual experiences I have no problem discussing. If you and your partner are ok with it...I don't see the problem.
If you're speaking about discussing sex with your partner, I think its an absolute must. I'm not quite sure what you're getting at when it comes to fulfilling the "spiritual" aspects of sex, I've always found it very important to focus on the physical aspects. If you want to fulfill the physical satisfaction of your partner, I think discussing what that entails is pretty helpful.

I'd even go as far as saying that fulfilling your partner's physical needs is a must in a healthy sexual relationship. If your focus during sex is on something else (spiritual needs etc.) I think your partner is in for a disappointing night.

 

[forcedelune]

sometimes you've just got to have sex for the fun of it, because it feels good, or because you ate a whole ton of chocolate p). I think that "fun" sex can be just as intimate and holy and spirit led as a passionate session.

Well, I tried to make clear that I'm not saying couples should expect to 100% of the time seek to reach the deepest levels of intimacy together as one. I'm more so trying to express that it should be the mainstay of intimacy in the marriage bed, because it is the most fulfilling form of a bond that a husband and wife can share together in the Lord (spirit, heart, soul, and body). Let me put it this way, it's kind of like food.

God designed food for the primary purpose of nourishing our body and keeping us healthy (through nutrition and so forth). It is vital that the mainstay of what you eat be those things which offer the widest variety of vitamins, minerals, and so forth. The Holy Spirit always has the best menu in town, so to speak, so we're not talking about rabbit food here.

What you were describing, is actually dessert (chocolate as you put it and rightly so). Dessert is fun and desert is exciting...but it is meant to be eaten sparingly in comparison to the nutritious food that is actually keeping you alive and thriving in good health. If you are touching your marriage partner's heart and soul and spirit more often than not...by all means, enjoy dessert together. You just won't be able to survive or thrive on that alone. You know what I mean?

but it seems to me the alternates are awkward (the garden spoken of in the S.O.S)because they're archaic or sound more appropriate in a inappropriate content movie. I would rather use the scientific terms for body parts because it acknowledges them as XYZ, as opposed to giving them some kind of "pet" name.

I don't think it's really fitting to say that Solomon was using "pet" names...more so using descriptions that stimulate a woman from the heart outward. Touching a woman's heart in such a way is much more effective a reaching the goal you speak of (coupled with physical contact), than just physical stimulation alone. It's often called Romance and I think it's off base to call it inappropriate content. It's quite the opposite. You must have heard about some inappropriate content movie that was attempting to be romantic to mask the true purpose of the video...perhaps so husbands can get their wives to watch it with them or something. Who knows?

Here's another question: Kids. If (as your other post suggests) it's perfectly okay for a 12 year old to get married and have sex (as a female I know that I wasn't capable of handling sex at 12. I don't think any 12 year old is mature enough, or mentally/physically ready to have sex with a grown man.) how can you discuss such a vital part of life with them without breaking the sanctity of the marriage bed. You can't tell me you advocate sending a girl, a child, into her marriage without any foreknowledge of what to expect. This could go for "where do babies come from" questions posed by very observant little ones.

My point is that we didn't even have marriage laws limiting the age of marriage from 12 to age 14 in any states until the 1950's in America (a few states still allow it). It's not the age 12 that I'm so much meaning to focus on in that thread, but more so the onset of natural puberty and child bearing age (which could be between 12 and 13, depending on diet and other factors). Yet, the physical changes that take place in a young woman's body are quite noticeable to her and she will know when she is physically ready. God made her that way.

Now, we do have a different problem in our culture with raising our youth to think they are "kids" (immature) until even as old as 25 (if they go to college). My point is at least to say that if a young woman is 12 or 13, she has been raised to be as mature as she should be at that age, and she wishes to marry a man who is even 25 or 30 (ie, like Mary the mother of Jesus and Joseph)...they should have the right to and that man should not be locked in a cage for it. Forbidding of marriage to naturally marriage aged women is directly against the Word of God which states that we should allow such a couples to marry [1 Corinthians 7:36] and not forbid such marriage [1 Timothy 4:1-3].

Regarding "the talk" you should have with your daughter prior to marriage...by all means, it is your responsibility to have your child prepared to be mature enough to be a wife and mother by the time they hit puberty and are then actually physically ready to be a mother. Not saying they have to be married off at that age, but they should be emotionally and psychologically mature enough to.

If our young women are not at least mature enough to be a wife and mother by the time their body is ready for it (12-13)...we have failed them and put them in a dangerous place. This has been the way of society for thousands of years and we only abandoned such wisdom in this last generation.

 

[apache1]

Well, I tried to make clear that I'm not saying couples should expect to 100% of the time seek to reach the deepest levels of intimacy together as one. I'm more so trying to express that it should be the mainstay of intimacy in the marriage bed, because it is the most fulfilling form of a bond that a husband and wife can share together in the Lord (spirit, heart, soul, and body). Let me put it this way, it's kind of like food.

God designed food for the primary purpose of nourishing our body and keeping us healthy (through nutrition and so forth). It is vital that the mainstay of what you eat be those things which offer the widest variety of vitamins, minerals, and so forth. The Holy Spirit always has the best menu in town, so to speak, so we're not talking about rabbit food here.

What you were describing, is actually dessert (chocolate as you put it and rightly so). Dessert is fun and desert is exciting...but it is meant to be eaten sparingly in comparison to the nutritious food that is actually keeping you alive and thriving in good health. If you are touching your marriage partner's heart and soul and spirit more often than not...by all means, enjoy dessert together. You just won't be able to survive or thrive on that alone. You know what I mean?



I don't think it's really fitting to say that Solomon was using "pet" names...more so using descriptions that stimulate a woman from the heart outward. Touching a woman's heart in such a way is much more effective a reaching the goal you speak of (coupled with physical contact), than just physical stimulation alone. It's often called Romance and I think it's off base to call it inappropriate content. It's quite the opposite. You must have heard about some inappropriate content movie that was attempting to be romantic to mask the true purpose of the video...perhaps so husbands can get their wives to watch it with them or something. Who knows?



My point is that we didn't even have marriage laws limiting the age of marriage from 12 to age 14 in any states until the 1950's in America (a few states still allow it). It's not the age 12 that I'm so much meaning to focus on in that thread, but more so the onset of natural puberty and child bearing age (which could be between 12 and 13, depending on diet and other factors). Yet, the physical changes that take place in a young woman's body are quite noticeable to her and she will know when she is physically ready. God made her that way.

Now, we do have a different problem in our culture with raising our youth to think they are "kids" (immature) until even as old as 25 (if they go to college). My point is at least to say that if a young woman is 12 or 13, she has been raised to be as mature as she should be at that age, and she wishes to marry a man who is even 25 or 30 (ie, like Mary the mother of Jesus and Joseph)...they should have the right to and that man should not be locked in a cage for it. Forbidding of marriage to naturally marriage aged women is directly against the Word of God which states that we should allow such a couples to marry [1 Corinthians 7:36] and not forbid such marriage [1 Timothy 4:1-3].

Regarding "the talk" you should have with your daughter prior to marriage...by all means, it is your responsibility to have your child prepared to be mature enough to be a wife and mother by the time they hit puberty and are then actually physically ready to be a mother. Not saying they have to be married off at that age, but they should be emotionally and psychologically mature enough to.

If our young women are not at least mature enough to be a wife and mother by the time their body is ready for it (12-13)...we have failed them and put them in a dangerous place. This has been the way of society for thousands of years and we only abandoned such wisdom in this last generation.

12 and 13, she's in her prime. 14 and 15, there is still time. 16 and 17, she's almost done. 18 and 19, fetch the shotgun. (Granny Clampett on the "Beverly Hillbillies")

 

[forcedelune]

I'm pretty sure I addressed all of the comments so far, so I'll go ahead and move forward...

So what's the first ingredient to this wonderful blessing of Spirit led intimacy, which God designed to be experienced in the marriage bed? It's none other than a holy and pure heart before the Lord. The more we seek our Heavenly Father for healing in our conscience (so that we will be naturally sensitive to those things that are not healthy for us to purposely or even passively allow into our hearts) [Luke 11:34; Romans 2:15; Philippians 2:12; 1 Timothy 1:5; Titus 1:15]...then, the more we will know which thoughts are unhealthy and need to be arrested (taken captive) to His Lordship. [2 Corinthians 10:5]

Then and only then will we be better able to diligently guard the door (or ground) of our hearts [Proverbs 4:23; 16:17] as His Word so urges us to. The Lord is faithful that, if we seek to obey Him by diligently guarding our hearts, He will put to death those thoughts we reject (take captive) at the door of our heart and He will cleanse them from our midst. [2 Corinthians 7:1; Ephesians 5:26; 1 John 1:9]

So what does all of this mean? Well when a person is presented a thought in their mind (an image, word, or emotion) which is not healthy for their heart to receive (such as inappropriate contentography, profanity, hate, and so on)...then, if their conscience has not been desensitized (seared) in this area by the influence of the culture around them, God has designed it so that our conscience will automatically reject those thoughts and give you the opportunity to dispose of them (give them over to the Lord). It's that natural pain we feel when we're doing something we should not be doing. This pain is good for us because it draws our attention to something that we need to seek to be cleansed, healed, or delivered from.

Here is the problem. The conscience is there for our benefit, but it does not block our free will. We are free to force these thoughts (set aflame with sin) through the sensitive protective barrier of our conscience and down into our hearts. Once we do this over and over...eventually, the conscience becomes so seared (in this particular area) that we no longer feel pain there- as the unhealthy thoughts just flow freely into the fertile grounds of our hearts.

What these thoughts (or seeds) grow into and what damage they cause in our lives is what I'm getting at here. This is something I'll address a little further down. These are the very areas that I call "blind spots"...the areas of our conscience that have been seared to the point that we no longer even see (feel) the unhealthy thoughts which are daily entering our hearts and bearing unhealthy (damaging) fruit into our lives. [Proverbs 4:23]

These blind spots have developed heavily within the American Church...mostly due to the fact that we started becoming so lukewarm during the early 1900's, we stopped being salt & light, and we started looking more to the world for our comfort (safety and pleasure) or entertainment. As time went on, we slowly became more and more desensitized by opening ourselves up to the world in this way (the "Roaring 20's " ) . Fast forward through many years of the Devil daily using different ways to take advantage of our apathy toward holiness (offering us plenty of subtly searing forms of entertainment, ill gained wealth, fear of sickness, and so on).

Now we dress, entertain ourselves, and accept as "normal" things that even the world (and definitely the Church) would have deemed as horribly immodest, garbage for the mind, and borderline insanity just a short 100 years ago. We have come a long way (gradually accepting subtle wrongs as acceptable rights). Our marriages, children, and society as a whole have paid dearly for it.

So, how does all of this apply to our everyday lives? Well for me, I felt convicted to start seeking the Lord to first heal my conscience in every area that I've been desensitized- of course, I'm still a work in progress until Jesus returns. Then He led me to pray that He would reveal to me all of those thoughts which are not healthy for me to allow or have in my heart.

We need Him to daily teach us what to guard our hearts against, to give us the strength (will) to be diligent in the battle, and to continue healing our conscience when we do fail. We need to believe the Lord to free and cleanse our hearts from all of those strongholds, which have grown out of the bad seeds that were allowed to implant into our hearts from our past. We need the Holy Spirit to continue in removing any bad seed that slips past our guard, as we continue to seek Him to do this.

The amazing thing is that once we daily exercise our conscience in these areas (by using it as God designed and not abusing it as the flesh desires), then it becomes a subconscious effort. The things you used to struggle to reject and protect yourself from, you don't even give a second thought about entertaining anymore. You start becoming naturally sensitive and can quickly make right decisions concerning that area (whether it be what movie to watch, what modest outfit to wear, who should be able to touch you where, and so forth).

At that point, we're well on our way to having the clean and clear conscience which Scriptures so often speak of. The Church in America has not had this for a very long time- the fruit we see today (in our culture) is positive proof of that. We're not the salt and light that we were in past American history (when the moral climate of the world was relatively high because the Church's standards were still balanced and holy unto the Lord).

Now all of the years of searing (desensitizing) our conscience have lowered our resistance and standards of purity so much that the average believer is starting to accept even more radical stands (nudity/prostitution in entertainment, men being with other men as with a woman, wives being seen and touched in private areas by men who are not their husbands). These are things that would have sparked strong concern within the Church before we gave so much ground- the momentum is almost unstoppable it seems. That's where we come in. I want to share with you what the Lord has presented to me in these areas.

 

[apache1]

I'm pretty sure I addressed all of the comments so far, so I'll go ahead and move forward...

So what's the first ingredient to this wonderful blessing of Spirit led intimacy, which God designed to be experienced in the marriage bed? It's none other than a holy and pure heart before the Lord. The more we seek our Heavenly Father for healing in our conscience (so that we will be naturally sensitive to those things that are not healthy for us to purposely or even passively allow into our hearts) [Luke 11:34; Romans 2:15; Philippians 2:12; 1 Timothy 1:5; Titus 1:15]...then, the more we will know which thoughts are unhealthy and need to be arrested (taken captive) to His Lordship. [2 Corinthians 10:5]

Then and only then will we be better able to diligently guard the door (or ground) of our hearts [Proverbs 4:23; 16:17] as His Word so urges us to. The Lord is faithful that, if we seek to obey Him by diligently guarding our hearts, He will put to death those thoughts we reject (take captive) at the door of our heart and He will cleanse them from our midst. [2 Corinthians 7:1; Ephesians 5:26; 1 John 1:9]

So what does all of this mean? Well when a person is presented a thought in their mind (an image, word, or emotion) which is not healthy for their heart to receive (such as inappropriate contentography, profanity, hate, and so on)...then, if their conscience has not been desensitized (seared) in this area by the influence of the culture around them, God has designed it so that our conscience will automatically reject those thoughts and give you the opportunity to dispose of them (give them over to the Lord). It's that natural pain we feel when we're doing something we should not be doing. This pain is good for us because it draws our attention to something that we need to seek to be cleansed, healed, or delivered from.

Here is the problem. The conscience is there for our benefit, but it does not block our free will. We are free to force these thoughts (set aflame with sin) through the sensitive protective barrier of our conscience and down into our hearts. Once we do this over and over...eventually, the conscience becomes so seared (in this particular area) that we no longer feel pain there- as the unhealthy thoughts just flow freely into the fertile grounds of our hearts.

What these thoughts (or seeds) grow into and what damage they cause in our lives is what I'm getting at here. This is something I'll address a little further down. These are the very areas that I call "blind spots"...the areas of our conscience that have been seared to the point that we no longer even see (feel) the unhealthy thoughts which are daily entering our hearts and bearing unhealthy (damaging) fruit into our lives. [Proverbs 4:23]

These blind spots have developed heavily within the American Church...mostly due to the fact that we started becoming so lukewarm during the early 1900's, we stopped being salt & light, and we started looking more to the world for our comfort (safety and pleasure) or entertainment. As time went on, we slowly became more and more desensitized by opening ourselves up to the world in this way (the "Roaring 20's " ) . Fast forward through many years of the Devil daily using different ways to take advantage of our apathy toward holiness (offering us plenty of subtly searing forms of entertainment, ill gained wealth, fear of sickness, and so on).

Now we dress, entertain ourselves, and accept as "normal" things that even the world (and definitely the Church) would have deemed as horribly immodest, garbage for the mind, and borderline insanity just a short 100 years ago. We have come a long way (gradually accepting subtle wrongs as acceptable rights). Our marriages, children, and society as a whole have paid dearly for it.

So, how does all of this apply to our everyday lives? Well for me, I felt convicted to start seeking the Lord to first heal my conscience in every area that I've been desensitized- of course, I'm still a work in progress until Jesus returns. Then He led me to pray that He would reveal to me all of those thoughts which are not healthy for me to allow or have in my heart.

We need Him to daily teach us what to guard our hearts against, to give us the strength (will) to be diligent in the battle, and to continue healing our conscience when we do fail. We need to believe the Lord to free and cleanse our hearts from all of those strongholds, which have grown out of the bad seeds that were allowed to implant into our hearts from our past. We need the Holy Spirit to continue in removing any bad seed that slips past our guard, as we continue to seek Him to do this.

The amazing thing is that once we daily exercise our conscience in these areas (by using it as God designed and not abusing it as the flesh desires), then it becomes a subconscious effort. The things you used to struggle to reject and protect yourself from, you don't even give a second thought about entertaining anymore. You start becoming naturally sensitive and can quickly make right decisions concerning that area (whether it be what movie to watch, what modest outfit to wear, who should be able to touch you where, and so forth).

At that point, we're well on our way to having the clean and clear conscience which Scriptures so often speak of. The Church in America has not had this for a very long time- the fruit we see today (in our culture) is positive proof of that. We're not the salt and light that we were in past American history (when the moral climate of the world was relatively high because the Church's standards were still balanced and holy unto the Lord).

Now all of the years of searing (desensitizing) our conscience have lowered our resistance and standards of purity so much that the average believer is starting to accept even more radical stands (nudity/prostitution in entertainment, men being with other men as with a woman, wives being seen and touched in private areas by men who are not their husbands). These are things that would have sparked strong concern within the Church before we gave so much ground- the momentum is almost unstoppable it seems. That's where we come in. I want to share with you what the Lord has presented to me in these areas.

Lions and tigers and bears, oh my. Burkas and hijabs and veils, oh my. I have to agree with you on the men with other men, though....yuck. I've never quite got used to that one yet

 

[Ana the Ist]

Actually, it's quite old...written thousands of years ago. We are doing exactly what Paul said we would...we are forbidding (by law) those to marry who had that very right to marry in Paul's day (in Jewish, Christian, and secular laws). We are the only generation to dare to do such a thing on such a wide scale, just as Paul predicted, and we are eating the rotten fruit from following the World in doing so.

That's really what I'm getting at there.

Age of consent laws serve a very ethical purpose. In this modern age, society recognizes that a child of 12-14 doesn't likely realize the full implications of a lifelong commitment to another person. To marry someone at that age is to essentially take advantage of their naivete.

Of course, this doesn't hold true for biblical times when most people died before their mid-forties. If you didn't marry off your daughter young, you risked ending your bloodline and any hope for generational prosperity. These aren't risks that we as a society face any longer.

 

[Eudaimonist]

As I see it, there are two extremes to avoid with respect to sexual activity.

1) Treating sex as only happening between two bodies
2) Treating sex as only happening between two spirits

We are ontologically a unity between spirit (or mind) and body, a "who" and a "what" combined. We should never forget that we are making love with a "who", and we should never forget that we are making love with a "what".

That means that there nothing particularly wrong with "using scientific/cold/flesh focused names for certain private parts of the body". This isn't "vile" or "degrading" unless one's partner objects to the terms used.

The terminology isn't nearly as important as how one treats one's partner. Do you respect his/her personhood? Do you recognize that your partner has a right to his/her own happiness and dreams? Are you being honest with your partner? Etc.

Even in a purely secular way, sex can be sacred and romantic. This can be a special experience. But this doesn't require any special rule-following. You will know what words to use, whether you refer to your partner's "vagina" or to her "holy of holies".


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[If Not For Grace]

Some here might do well to take a look at The Song of Solomon and you might just get a bit of a different perspective on the physcial aspects of sex.

Much ado is made of the beauty of the physcial body and everything from the "tastes" to hair even to the placement of hands, to a woman's neck, lips and breasts and the emotions of everything from lovers being apart to their mutual delight with one another.

Chapter 7:

"The curves of your hips are like jewels"

"Your navel is like a round goblet"

"How beautiful and how delightful you are"

"and your mouth like the best wine"

"Let us rise early & go to the vineyards"

"there I will give you my love"

Could just be me..but the book seems very much about passion..His and Hers...

and I skipped the part where he likens her stature to a palm tree which he plans to climb...

That's just one Chapter...

"My beloved is mine and I am his"... That's the kind of sex and Love & romance we are to have, is it not?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Does anyone else notice a whole bunch of Freudian slips in the posts this guy writes?

 

[apache1]

Does anyone else notice a whole bunch of Freudian slips in the posts this guy writes?

Not only Freudian slips, I think his own slips are a showin', too.

 

[apache1]

I am so confused right now to what this topic is about?!? Or what the thing is we were suppose to learn.

With that said I don't understand the part about sex is not about physical sex. So are you saying its about spirituality sex? I'm not trying to be sarcastic but how does that work? I mean when I lay in bed with my life and make love, thats sex isn't it? So how would I start to have spiritual sex with her? The only think I can assume you mean is how when you have sex with your spouse you bond spiritually. As in sex goes beyond just being a physical act. If thats what you meant then I understand.

As someone stated above are you saying we can't talk about sex? What about when your married? To be blunt when you are first married the sex isn't that great, so in order to improve on it you would then talk about it to find out what works for both of you. Without that talk how would you improve? Again I point out I am confuesd to your well meaning topic.

I guess you astrally do the horzontal bop floating around the cosmos. By the way, I would love to time travel, a la Star Trek style time warp.

 

[seeking Christ]

This thread reminds me of this picture.

http://i.imgur.com/uZpJY.jpg

I don't know how someone can think this is a healthy relationship.

So what you're saying is also a Biblical quote: what fellowship hath light with darkness?

The answer of course, is none.

To discuss the intent of the OP, Song of Solomon is a prerequisite, and probably all that need be referred to. The wisdom in that book is immense! (ETA: I see "If Not For Grace" beat me to it)

 

[seeking Christ]

The guru of getting it on, the friar of the freaky-deaky, the sultan of the horizontal swing. All hail the king! Here, Here!!

To forcedelune. I'd ask a moderator to move this topic to the Advice section here:
http://www.christianforums.com/f232/

I say this because your message might be lost in this current section since non-believers are allowed to post. Unless of course your message was for them too. But most of the members stick the advice section for topics like this.

The OP writes well, and seems to be very patient with the scorn the unbelieving tribe here feels entitled to ladle on. I do agree, that there might be more actual discussion taking place in a Christian only area, which is sad. But the advice area really seems more geared towards those needing advice? I think the OP would find more actual interaction if he were to get involved in one of the faith groups, safe-houses, or maybe better yet, the married groups. Probably he would do more actual good posting this in the singles only sub-forums, but that seems to be against the rules?

Anyway, there are non Christians on this website with a genuine concern about Spirituality. Good luck to the OP connecting with them!

 

[seeking Christ]

Even in a purely secular way, sex can be sacred and romantic.

Of course, but this?

But this doesn't require any special rule-following. You will know what words to use, whether you refer to your partner's ... or to her "holy of holies".

That had BETTER be a mood-killer