Sex & the imminent death of the Church of England

Andrewn

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The Church of England’s Imminent Death Brings Opportunities

According the article cited above, Anglicanism in the UK, Canada, and the US is dying and a major reason could be approval of non-Biblical sexual practices. Several other mainline Protestant denominations may share in the reasons of the decline. The following is quotated from the above article:

"At first, the changes came in a slow trickle, but once the dam burst, they flooded through—and there was no definitive tradition of doctrines or even an official interpretation of Scripture that was above the individual’s preeminence to decide on matters great and small. The individual’s authority to judge issues of sexuality and gender specifically had no logical limiting principle in a church which started by eliminating it.

"For American Episcopalians, birth control was approved in 1930. In 1967, they announced their opposition to all abortion restrictions. In 1976, they approved female clergy. And since then, every wind that blows in the sexual and gender realms leads to another monumental change, to the point where the only real doctrine on sexuality is “thou shalt not disagree with the latest sexual fad.”

"Leaders of the Northern Virginia church I grew up in wrote an op-ed in The Washington Post explaining why they were leaving the Episcopal Church for a conservative Anglican alternative, saying, 'The sola scriptura (by the scriptures alone) doctrine of the Reformation church has been abandoned for the sola cultura (by the culture alone) way of the modern church. No longer under authority, the Episcopal Church today is either its own authority or finds its authority in the shifting winds of intellectual and social fashion—which is to say it has no authority.'”

What do you think of the above analysis and the fate of Christian denominations in post-Covid world? How can we stay relevant when people are no longer afraid of hell and Pascal's wager?
 

Albion

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What do you think of the above analysis and the fate of Christian denominations in post-Covid world?

As concerns The Episcopal Church and also the CofE and the Anglican Church of Canada, the media usually want to paint the issue too narrowly. That is to say, the homosexual issue was and is only the final straw (or something like that). These church bodies had been in decline for years previous to this issue taking center stage, and the reasons for that decline are more complicated and less newsworthy.

In short, it was the churches' adoption of the agenda of the secular forces in Western society all round. To that extent, the article quoted in the OP is correct in what is said in the next to last paragraph ("Leaders of the Northern Virginia church I grew up in wrote....").

How can we stay relevant when people are no longer afraid of hell and Pascal's wager?

There are other Christian churches which are doing much better, even in these difficult times, so I have to conclude that it's possible.
 
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Norbert L

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What do you think of the above analysis and the fate of Christian denominations in post-Covid world? How can we stay relevant when people are no longer afraid of hell and Pascal's wager?
One reason comes from an idea that's been in circulation for long time, that there are many ways to God. A fair chunk of people wish to reconnect with their historical past including pre-Christian cultural past, when there was no Gospel to be heard. Basically they're no longer afraid of a Christian hell, they've adopted some other version that will not only bring them successfully to the afterlife in their mind, but also have fun on the way there.

https://theculturetrip.com/europe/u.../articles/the-uk-s-10-most-unusual-festivals/

In my view numerous people are no longer afraid of hell or Pascal's wager because they believe there are other legitimate ways to the afterlife that involve having more fun and pleasure. Besides we know the numbers game, that it is relevant to God and His plans 1 Kings 19:14-18. More popularity does NOT necessarily equal being more godly.

So in order to stay relevant, I see a choice. Either stay relevant to the gospel of Jesus' kingdom or relevant to the people's itching ears. It's not a popularity contest whereby greater or lesser numbers prove the absence or presence of God.
 
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Andrewn

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In short, it was the churches' adoption of the agenda of the secular forces in Western society all round. To that extent, the article quoted in the OP is correct in what is said in the next to last paragraph ("Leaders of the Northern Virginia church I grew up in wrote....").
How would you advice churches to avoid what the article calls "sola cultura?" How should they react to subjects like pre-marital sex, common law marriage, gay issues, etc.? What other subjects can bring people to the love of God?
 
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dqhall

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The Church of England’s Imminent Death Brings Opportunities

According the article cited above, Anglicanism in the UK, Canada, and the US is dying and a major reason could be approval of non-Biblical sexual practices. Several other mainline Protestant denominations may share in the reasons of the decline. The following is quotated from the above article:

"At first, the changes came in a slow trickle, but once the dam burst, they flooded through—and there was no definitive tradition of doctrines or even an official interpretation of Scripture that was above the individual’s preeminence to decide on matters great and small. The individual’s authority to judge issues of sexuality and gender specifically had no logical limiting principle in a church which started by eliminating it.

"For American Episcopalians, birth control was approved in 1930. In 1967, they announced their opposition to all abortion restrictions. In 1976, they approved female clergy. And since then, every wind that blows in the sexual and gender realms leads to another monumental change, to the point where the only real doctrine on sexuality is “thou shalt not disagree with the latest sexual fad.”

"Leaders of the Northern Virginia church I grew up in wrote an op-ed in The Washington Post explaining why they were leaving the Episcopal Church for a conservative Anglican alternative, saying, 'The sola scriptura (by the scriptures alone) doctrine of the Reformation church has been abandoned for the sola cultura (by the culture alone) way of the modern church. No longer under authority, the Episcopal Church today is either its own authority or finds its authority in the shifting winds of intellectual and social fashion—which is to say it has no authority.'”

What do you think of the above analysis and the fate of Christian denominations in post-Covid world? How can we stay relevant when people are no longer afraid of hell and Pascal's wager?
The church should offer guidance against sexual immorality in as much as sexually transmitted disease caused much damage. Illegitimate children, abortions, divorces and single mothers raising children without a husband to help are also evidence of a failing society. Nations with the highest fertility rates have an average of about six children born to one mother. These are also among the poorest on earth, without sufficient resources for the future. Self gratification in sex addiction is the road to perdition, loss and shame.
 
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Andrewn

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In my view numerous people are no longer afraid of hell or Pascal's wager because they believe there are other legitimate ways to the afterlife that involve having more fun and pleasure.
We know that there is hell and that sinners and unbelievers suffer there. But this is not really the reason we worship God. We worship God because of His love, mercy, and salvation. A lot of people can't see this.
 
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Hmm

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And since then, every wind that blows in the sexual and gender realms leads to another monumental change, to the point where the only real doctrine on sexuality is “thou shalt not disagree with the latest sexual fad.”

I don't agree with the article here that striving for full rights for LGBTQ+ people is a "fad". It's pretty much seen now in the UK as an equality issue, as is the matter of female priests. I think people outside the church think that equality is a Christian value and simply can't understand why the church struggles so much over these issues. I don't have any statistics but it seems likely to me that it's not the church being too liberal or moderate on these matters that is driving or keeping people away but the opposite. Many people think that it is the church that has abandoned Christian principles by focussing so much on these issues - the church is obsessed by sex to most people - and IMO the best way for the church to increase in numbers is to become more relevant to people's lives and be the light they need by tracking issues like poverty, loneliness and equality. Science too is another issue - there is a general perception that the church is anti-science and when almost everyone is walking around with mobile phones in their pockets, if they feel they have to choose between science and religion they are, quite rightly, going to choose science.
 
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disciple Clint

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I don't agree with the article here that striving for full rights for LGBTQ+ people is a "fad". It's pretty much seen now in the UK as an equality issue, as is the matter of female priests. I think people outside the church think that equality is a Christian value and simply can't understand why the church struggles so much over these issues. I don't have any statistics but it seems likely to me that it's not the church being too liberal or moderate on these matters that is driving or keeping people away but the opposite. Many people think that it is the church that has abandoned Christian principles by focussing so much on these issues - the church is obsessed by sex to most people - and IMO the best way for the church to increase in numbers is to become more relevant to people's lives and be the light they need by tracking issues like poverty, loneliness and equality. Science too is another issue - there is a general perception that the church is anti-science and when almost everyone is walking around with mobile phones in their pockets, if they feel they have to choose between science and religion they are, quite rightly, going to choose science.
God was very clear in setting standards in His words to us, the Bible tells us that there will be those who follow social norms and forget God, we see example after example in the text, it clearly teaches that there are consequences for turning away from God.
 
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God was very clear in setting standards in His words to us, the Bible tells us that there will be those who follow social norms and forget God, we see example after example in the text, it clearly teaches that there are consequences for turning away from God.

Is being concerned about poverty, loneliness and equality and respecting science following social norms and forgetting God?
 
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disciple Clint

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Is being concerned about poverty, loneliness and equality and respecting science following social norms and forgetting God?
Anything that is not consistent with His word would be forgetting God or more specifically turning away from Him. God makes it clear what social values He endorses. There is no conflict between God and science, they are totally compatible.
 
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Anything that is not consistent with His word would be forgetting God or more specifically turning away from Him. God makes it clear what social values He endorses. There is no conflict between God and science, they are totally compatible.

We're in agreement then..
 
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Andrewn

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As usual, you get to the bottom of an issue in a way that few people do :).

I don't agree with the article here that striving for full rights for LGBTQ+ people is a "fad". It's pretty much seen now in the UK as an equality issue, as is the matter of female priests.
Let's also add to the groups you mentioned those who practice pre-marital sex or live common law, so that we are not picking on homosexuals.

What do full rights mean? The right to attend and be welcome in a certain church? The right to receive communion? The right to be a board member? The right to be an ordained pastor if academically qualified? The right to be a diocesan bishop?

I think people outside the church think that equality is a Christian value and simply can't understand why the church struggles so much over these issues. I don't have any statistics but it seems likely to me that it's not the church being too liberal or moderate on these matters that is driving or keeping people away but the opposite. Many people think that it is the church that has abandoned Christian principles by focussing so much on these issues - the church is obsessed by sex to most people
Throughout history, the Church has always been obsessed by regulating sex. Should it stop obsessing with sex? Should all sex, with the exception of adultery / extra-marital sex, be acceptable? The NT repeatedly warns against inappropriate contenteia. How should this sin be defined if not from the OT prohibitions?

IMO the best way for the church to increase in numbers is to become more relevant to people's lives and be the light they need by tracking issues like poverty, loneliness and equality.
While I definitely and absolutely agree with this, it seems that churches practicing social services did not gain in membership. People were happy to receive the services but did not feel a need to reciprocate God's love.

Science too is another issue - there is a general perception that the church is anti-science and when almost everyone is walking around with mobile phones in their pockets, if they feel they have to choose between science and religion they are, quite rightly, going to choose science.
I'm so glad that you included this point. A religion that is against science cannot be relevant. But then the Church may feel that there is another source of truth beside itself and this hurts its pride.
 
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Andrewn

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The right to be an ordained pastor if academically qualified?
More about this point from the previously quoted article:

"So, when a Seattle priest announced, “I am both Muslim and Christian, just like I’m both an American of African descent and a woman. I’m 100 percent both,” The Seattle Times reported that the area bishop, the Rt. Rev. Vincent Warner, said he 'accepts Redding as an Episcopal priest and a Muslim, and that he finds the interfaith possibilities exciting.'”

Is it reasonable to ordain a pastor who is an Atheist, a Muslim, or who does not believe in Jesus' bodily resurrection? I know that this happens in some denominations. What can such a pastor teach the congregation? And what about denominations that teach that people can be saved regardless of their religion? How did they go from a belief in eternal torment in hell to universalism? How does this affect the Gospel proclamation?
 
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What do full rights mean? The right to attend and be welcome in a certain church? The right to receive communion? The right to be a board member? The right to be an ordained pastor if academically qualified? The right to be a diocesan bishop?

These are good questions and I don't have any good answers but perhaps a good start would be that everyone has the right to be taken seriously and for their experiences not to be unauthenticated and dismissed simply on the back of a couple of Bible verses taken out of context. A dialogue as compared to something like the current Church of England position on gay rights which is that it's not a sin to be gay but is a sin to practice being what that entails, which is obviously a fudge simply designed to hold the church together.

Throughout history, the Church has always been obsessed by regulating sex. Should it stop obsessing with sex? Should all sex, with the exception of adultery / extra-marital sex, be acceptable? The NT repeatedly warns against inappropriate contenteia. How should this sin be defined if not from the OT prohibitions

Another difficult question. I believe sex should be in the context of marriage but of course then this raises the issue of gay marriage etc. I used the word "obsessed" because this is how many people view the church but I don't think it actually is. Sex is a very precious thing and by surrounding it with so many rules the church is really trying to protect it from abuse as you would anything that you value. I think it probably needs to make this clearer to the wider community though becausea lot of people think the church is anti-sex for puritanical reasons.

While I definitely and absolutely agree with this, it seems that churches practicing social services did not gain in membership. People were happy to receive the services but did not feel a need to reciprocate God's love.

I agree that the church should never become just another arm of the social services. Jesus should be at the forefront of everything it does. Again, it's not obvious what this would mean in practice but I can see people being more likely to attend church if they could get involved in helping their local community in practical ways.

I'm so glad that you included this point. A religion that is against science cannot be relevant. But then the Church may feel that there is another source of truth beside itself and this hurts its pride.

A good point. And also I think a lot of clergy don't understand science very well. Science itself and most scientists don't claim that science can explain everything expect the the most important things in life like love, morality and truth, but oddly most people think it can and some Christians may feel they have to react against this and go to the other extreme of being anti-science.
 
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